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GonZo

10-14-2006 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5pm (Post 11076604)

I can't believe this thread isn't 20 pages long yet .

Lar's you're a fucking thief.

Anyone that runs a program as successful as yours would have to know what was happening.

You did this entirely to steal sales from your affiliates, so you wouldn't have to payout anything.

2 million paid out to zango to highjack your affiliates codes and tracking is alot easier on you than paying out god knows what in affiliate payouts.

You knew full well what you were doing.

A company as big as AFF.... you dont think they have about 3 people that do nothing but analyze and acquire traffic?

The excuse that they bought the advertising but didnt know where it was coming from is laughable.

MaddCaz

10-14-2006 04:26 PM

aaand thats thus!!!!

Worldnet

10-14-2006 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuga (Post 11076653)

This is not looking good....

too bad I dont know any dating sponsor that converts like AFF. And anyone who says different, is a liar.

There are better ones, and I ain't no liar. I quit sending much traffic to AFF, and increased my sales.

RRRED

10-14-2006 04:37 PM

This is disappointing for affiliates but you gotta remember. Don't shoot the messenger. This might not be a personal position of Lars. It's the position of the company. I'm thinking that Lars is saying what he's told to say.

I'm glad I'm not in his position. I've had to make integrity calls before and I'll tell ya what. Stale crackers with ketchup and oregano don't taste like pizza anymore after about a month. But then again, alot of affiliates trust me even more now.

I'd rather make less money, represent what I know is right, and earn longevity in this biz. :2 cents:

SmokeyTheBear

10-14-2006 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRRED (Post 11076746)

I'd rather make less money, represent what I know is right, and earn longevity in this biz. :2 cents:

:thumbsup :thumbsup

Best advice/stance of the year :thumbsup

Manowar

10-14-2006 04:58 PM

mad drama right here

Manowar

10-14-2006 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeyTheBear (Post 11076856)

:thumbsup :thumbsup

Best advice/stance of the year :thumbsup

Very good point man, RRED nailed it on that one

will76

10-14-2006 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damian2001 (Post 11074894)

Lots of hating in this thread still - but I still dont see anything constructive.

If this issue really is that important to you put your thinking caps on and try to answer the question I asked above....

So far we have -

1. Take the Smokey approach and try to code your way out of it - dosnt really solve Lar's problem though.

2. Take legal action.

Any more?

I know its alien to most on this board, but lets try to be constructive rather than destructive for once. :2 cents:

I suggested already in this thread, and i guess you missed it... why doesn't AFF buy only their own keywords and do a pop under blank page, or no page at all. This way they protect their keywords and NOT have a "bizarre collision" with their affiliates.

I do believe AFF is trademarked. Gator was sued by a couple trademarked companies a few years back and Gator lost. I am sure AFF with their team of inhouse attornies could sue Zango (and other ""adware"" companies) and win. I bet they would even settle without it going far.

Another option is for them to stop doing it. DatingGold did this. It is not like this is even going to put a dent in AFF's traffic. I know AFF thinks it is going to hurt them if they stop but I would bet anything they lose more in sales from affiliates dropping them because they support this shit, then what they could possibly lose from no "adware" sales. This isn't like a pimpdog belief that even bad news makes you money. While some fools might signup to trey's sites because they think he is cool, I don't see AFF stating that they support adware generating them any new affiliates.

AFF is the best dating site, and Cams is in the top 5. They could run with this and blaze the trail for the rest of us. Not only would they be giving a little something back to the industry and affiliates that make them over 100 million a year in sales, but they would actualy make more money because who wouldn;t want to promote them if they took these companies on and helped protect all of us. :2 cents:

charlie g

10-14-2006 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worldnet (Post 11076733)

There are better ones, and I ain't no liar. I quit sending much traffic to AFF, and increased my sales.

I am new to the biz and a small fish, but I am pulling aff of my network because I work too hard to get traffic to my sites to have even 1 visitor sucked away. You don't care, I am sure, if I run your ads or not, but I care about who I do business with. While you can hide behind the "everyones doing it" excuse, your money would be better spent finding technology to prevent your partners from getting fucked over.

Please spam this thread with other dating sites because I am in the market. I don't care if they don't convert as well as aff either.

will76

10-14-2006 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SureFire (Post 11076644)

Really? Lars paid TWO MILLION DOLLARS with this ad campgian...hard to believe...I guess fucking up 'average' surfer's computers is very profitable.

:upsidedow

zango made 50 million in 2004. How much do you think they are making now ?

Pleasurepays

10-14-2006 05:14 PM

i am sure one can easily prevent others from being able to bid on trademarked terms. i guess people dont see it in adult much, but if you do any mainstream PPC stuff, you run into it all the time with all major traffic sources.

:2 cents:

DTK	10-14-2006 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 11076973)

I suggested already in this thread, and i guess you missed it... why doesn't AFF buy only their own keywords and do a pop under blank page, or no page at all.

...effectively turning zango into a protection racket

will76

10-14-2006 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTK (Post 11077010)

...effectively turning zango into a protection racket

Opposed to what one could call what is happening now... extortion ?

AFF if you don't buy *your* keywords your competition will take your traffc... ( i am sure zango doesn't contact them and say that, but in theory that is what is happening).

It was just an option and better then what they are doing now. :2 cents:

DTK	10-14-2006 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 11077028)

True enough, but still not the real answer, eh?

SureFire

10-14-2006 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 11076987)

zango made 50 million in 2004. How much do you think they are making now ?

I am sure a lot more...but I think you miss took my post or I didn't state it strong enough...Fucking Up Someone(s) computer is very profitable.

Personally, I can't imagine how it could be but it seems so. :)

fusionx

10-14-2006 05:48 PM

Lie down with dogs and you'll get up with fleas..

Worldnet

10-14-2006 05:57 PM

Until someone files a lawsuit, and/or a class action lawsuit, my guess is nothing will change. The bottom feeders in this biz have got away with crap like this for years because no one takes action.

babymaker

10-14-2006 06:08 PM

just send traffic here instead: :upsidedow

Creampie Whores

2nd week live

coverting 1:293 raw - 1:25 join

$30PPS - 65% Rev

- Creampie Whores -

:pimp

jayeff

10-14-2006 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRRED (Post 11076746)

10/10 for your sentiments but I have two problems with the way you expressed them.

The first is that Lars is not a messenger, he is a representative, he is the public face of AFF and other sites. Which is why speculation about his personal position is totally irrelevant. Anyone who opposes what has been going on has enough smokescreens to deal with, without creating more.

Secondly, sometimes ethics, principles, call them what you will, do carry a cost. But this is not one of those times, so let's not hand that Lars that excuse - feeble as it is - either.

There are many webmasters who prove over and over that they have no more self respect than they have business sense. But does it really take much of either to tell someone: you work with me honestly, or I walk away.

RawAlex

10-14-2006 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTK (Post 11077010)

...effectively turning zango into a protection racket

You hit the nail on the head - Zango has found a way to effective get between surfers and sites, to tag along and become part of every search, every click, and every visit. They forcibly put themselves into every transaction, and their sales pitch is:

"Pay us for the traffic you should have already gotten, or we will sell it to your competitors! We will pop consoles over every page and every click of your sites and distract the surfers until they don't even know you exist, so you better come to us and buy your domain back... and oh yeah, can we interest you in sitcking it to your competitors too? We can sell you THEIR keywords too!".

That, in a nutshell, is their entire business model.

All the free games, tools, and whatever is all to get their software installed, and once it is installed, it is apparently VERY hard to get rid of (and will re-install itself or otherwise rename itself to avoid being removed entirely).

Companies shouldn't be so dumb as to do business with these people. Sexsearch will never get any of my traffic in any way shape or form no matter what happens in the future. They are non-grata as far as I am concerned.

DTK	10-14-2006 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RawAlex (Post 11077428)

Sexsearch will never get any of my traffic in any way shape or form no matter what happens in the future. They are non-grata as far as I am concerned.

Funny you mention them...i was thinking to myself how comforting it must be to them (and all the others pulling the same shit) that another outfit is catching almost all the heat for this.

The Ghost

10-14-2006 07:16 PM

How did I miss this thread? :eek2

The problem is known, time for some real solutions. Affiliates should be LIVID, you deserve to be. This information should not have been found out the way it did. Thank you Smokey and Will76 for beating the drum. Jayeff, your contributions here are very much appreciated.

This industry has a VERY short memory. Any wagers on the longevity of this issue?

rollinthunder

10-14-2006 07:27 PM

I've always found AFF to be suspect, given that their affiliate backend does not support 'test orders', thus they are able to 'shave' whatever they want without reprecussion.

minusonebit

10-14-2006 07:33 PM

Isnt AFF the making cash hand over fist off the hard work of it's affiliate's hard work? I think so. So then what the fuck is the problem?

What do you do when someone rips off your copyrighted content and profits from it? What do you do when someone breaches a contract? What do you do when someone interferes with your ability to conduct business? You call up the legal department (surely an outfit as large as AFF has lawyers on retainer if not on staff) and you file a fucking lawsuit seeking injunctions and monetary relief and whatever else is appropriate.

If you need to post on a web board seeking suggestions of possible solultions to figure this out, you should just give your business to me since I clearly know more about running it than you do.

The amount of stupidty shown here is absoultely astounding.

RawAlex

10-14-2006 07:53 PM

minusonebit, the deal is that the online adult industry as a whole is built on a sort of trust and "work together" mentality. Affiliates do tens of thousands of dollars of business with people that they never meet, with their traffic, sales, and payments all tracked without anyone screaming "auditor" or "lawsuit". It is only very recently that the term "lawsuit" started to pop up around here, and that has been a very disappointing thing to see.

We have all long since accepted to some point that shaving MAY occur. We have also all pretty much accepted that some clicks are lost en-route, idiots charge back, and that toolbars steal some traffic. We don't like it, but the cost to fix it in the past has far exceeded the return. For the most part, the sponsors have been pretty darn good about making it all come clean in the wash, and the payouts to affiliates have been good.

But this year has been different. More and more people are seeing very poor conversions, levels that have never been seen before. Yet the programs aren't complaining, and in fact, the major cam sponsors have all been trying to outbid each other for traffic. If their conversions were as bad as mine, they would be crying in their soup. They are not, which tells me someone's conversions are significantly better than average.

It points to adware, toolbars, or outright shaving... one or more of those things (or other things) are coming together to finally make most affiliates feel the pain. What was a 1 in 200 business because a 1 in 400 business and now is something more like a 1 in 1000 business. I have some sponsors showing 1 in 4000. My official cams count is (when I checked this morning) almost 14,000 clicks without a money sale.

There is a point where the numbers come together and people start to wonder what the fuck is going on, and then they see this... and they go through the motions they have gone through for years, in a business where we talk amoungst ourselves and try to find solutions.

It beats making the lawyers rich.

Pleasurepays

10-14-2006 08:05 PM

i am guessing Alex, that we may have seen the last of the "We had another record day" threads for cams.com :)

i personally would like to see someone for once, suffer some consequences for theft and fraud in this business. been expecting that for almost 10 years now nothing's happened yet.

will76

10-14-2006 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ghost (Post 11077563)

I first posted on this about 2 weeks ago. Initially most people said that my posts would fade away in 2 days and that no one cared.

Over the last two weeks zango has taken notice and replied vigorusly denying what was being posted here, thousands of adult affiiliates have been educated on how "adware" works, some advertisers here who were pushing zangocash have stopped because they now know how it works, several sponsors have said they are against it and will not allow "adware" traffic, even 1 sponsor (dating gold ) stopped doing business with zango, AFF has admitted to their involvement, several news articles have been written about this, and it is still going....

It is just starting to pickup steam. I think we will be hearing about this for a lot longer.

uno	10-14-2006 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XPays (Post 11072568)

One interesting thing in this thread is the cookie talk.

if webmasters really want to see their sales drop- they can use programs that do not hardcode their links. be careful what you wish for- revolving methods around cookies is a smokescreen. keep a year or lifetime cookie- whatever, sales still are not going to track accurately because cookies are good for a lot of things- but not for core affiliate tracking.

I don't get it personally. Why not have multiple methods for tracking affiliate sales in case one fails? Redundancy in this type of thing using various methods to track affiliate traffic seems like the way to go.

I'm sure there are methods that can be implemented on the affiliate end as well to kill the spawned windows from spyware/adware/malware.

uno	10-14-2006 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayeff (Post 11073539)

That is a very disingenuous comment. There are solutions just as there are choices and while Smokey's intent is admirable, that type of "solution" is on a par with advising stagecoach travellers to wear bulletproof vests.

In situations like this, there are always three options. You can go along, making the problem worse and becoming part of it. You can sit back and do nothing. You can fight the problem.

Which may sound like crusading idealism, but you run one of the largest operations in this industry which therefore suffers more than most, the consequences of working in a "wild west" environment. Think about the resources you have to put into protecting your business: those are real costs which will increase year on year if you don't act.

That realisation takes a decade or two to dawn on every new industry. But they all get there and one reason is that scammers are people with very limited horizons who simply do not belong in big business. So long as you play their game instead of your own, you are limiting yourself to their petty ambitions.

I'm speaking from experience. I started my first business with less than $5,000, working out of a two-room basement. It was built largely on a scam, like every other business of that sort at the time. It made good money. Then after a couple of years I realized that was as good as it was going to get, but that if I ran the business legitimately, there was a potentially huge market for it. So I cleaned up my own act, hired new people and trained them. Three years later, sales were into 7 figures and it was one of the biggest companies in its field.

There is no way to describe just how trivial and stupid the games that I was playing in the early 1970's seem now. I sold out in 1980. In 2004, the last year the company operated as an independent division, sales were $450 million. Now it is part of Deutsche Post who have an annual turnover of more than $70 billion. I shake my head every time I think about the early days.

Your operation has the muscle and influence to change the face of this industry and it is in your own interest to do so. If you choose to offer only fluff in response to the current issue, you may well lose only a few affiliates, easily covered by writing some more checks to Zango or whoever. But wouldn't it make more sense to begin turning situations like this to your advantage? Take the high ground and condemn scumware. Use the obvious opposition to it to beat your less ethical competitors around the head. You will gain affiliates, they will lose affiliates and you will have moved the industry a small step closer to where you need it to be.

Our business should be selling to the public: not preying on each other. That's a practical consideration, not an ethical one. There are millions of surfers out there and only a few thousand webmasters. Which market has the most potential?

Don't mean to be a brown-noser, but I've known you online for a very long time and have always enjoyed your reasonable and logical posts. I thank Jeebus there are still some people around here with the ability to reason and think logically and that you actually take the time to do so. Thanks, Jayeff, and PLEASE keep it up.

L-Pink

10-14-2006 09:27 PM

From the consumer side (future revenue) the perceived validity of profiles is what opens wallets. Have all the stops been pulled on both ends to increase $$$ ... ?

Who is making-up the profiles? What percentage are real? Is this legal/ethical?

http://www.imagefilez.com/out.php/i19597_altfake.jpg

.

davidd

10-14-2006 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XPays (Post 11072568)

You sir are 100% correct.

I did some tests back in the day with IBill and CCBill.

1. I setup a brand new site (zero users in the password file)

2. Generated traffic to the site via controlled methods (text links)

On a 50/50 revshare the webmaster really gets fucked. It worked out to an actual 25%/75% revshare. There were that many sales lost because of cookie tracking.

If you are using a program that uses cookies you are being ass raped...

meniser

10-14-2006 09:32 PM

i love the boss www bonuschicks. com rocks

davidd

10-14-2006 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RawAlex (Post 11077428)

All the free games, tools, and whatever is all to get their software installed, and once it is installed, it is apparently VERY hard to get rid of (and will re-install itself or otherwise rename itself to avoid being removed entirely).

You really need to check your facts. I installed it the other day and it was easily removed. It appears to be one the cleanest adware programs out there...

DTK	10-14-2006 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidd (Post 11077993)

You really need to check your facts. I installed it the other day and it was easily removed. It appears to be one the cleanest adware programs out there...

try uninstalling it after a week

Paul Markham

10-14-2006 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayeff (Post 11073539)

Our business should be selling to the public: not preying on each other. That's a practical consideration, not an ethical one. There are millions of surfers out there and only a few thousand webmasters. Which market has the most potential?

It was as always a great post, with so many good points to commend. This one did stand out though.

The problem with it is this. :2 cents:

How many in the industry even understand what the surfer needs?

It's that simple, to so many this business is all about throwing hits at a site, less is done to convert and maximise the potential of those hits. A simple guide is look at the amount of Internet porn companies that have gone into the other delivery methods of porn. Very few, because very few can compete. They work hard at getting more profit from throwing more hits at the same stuff. They largely ignore DVDs, Magazines, Cable, Mobile Phones, etc to maximise and improve profits.

The problem is the skills many people in the industry possess. They can put up a site, make it jump through hoops, program a back end to make your eyes light up, talk and support affiliates. But when it comes to stepping out of the COMPUTER field they are lost.

I put it down to a lot of lorry drivers who can build an engine but do not have a clue about the load in the back of the truck. good delivery men but poor salesmen.

Eva and I will be in Berlin Wednesday to Saturday for the Venus porn convention, might pop in to see the Internet show. :winkwink:

Sorry off topic I know, but think about it and you see why so many resort to less than ethical methods to get business. They have no other options.

Paul Markham

10-14-2006 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damian2001 (Post 11074894)

OK I'm a non techie and know little to nothing about how Internet things work. But how about this.

A site is set up by someone who does understand this and knows how to work it. The point of the site is to track and report which sites and which keywords are being hijacked/used. I would pay money to belong to such a site.

I'm assuming it's possible to buy "TEENS" as a keyword, but is it ethical to but Paul Markham Teens? If someone was taking TEENS traffic from anyone looking for teens that looks ethical, if someone was taking Paul Markham Teens. Then I would like to know.

Paul Markham

10-14-2006 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarlotCash Dyker (Post 11076180)

At the end of the day, it is the same story that I have seen regularly in the 11 years I have been in the adult industry:
Fuck the surfer - In this case with shitware
Fuck the affiliate by screwing him with cash
And lets get fucking richer today - Fuck tomorrow.

Bet a new thread will be started soon offering an even larger amount of cash per sign up for AFF affiliates -

Send us more traffic so we can steal it. Now you know how they can afford the larger amounts, they pay adware companies to hijack it.

Thanks for connecting the dots. :thumbsup

uno	10-14-2006 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRRED (Post 11076746)

Have I told you lately that I love you?

TheJimmy

10-14-2006 11:53 PM

Looks like the slashdot crowd is chatting up this issue as well:

http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/14/1952229

cutievids

10-15-2006 12:34 AM

What I don't get is why sponsors support Zango and similar pieces of crap. Aren't they pretty much only "over-riding" affiliate links, so that means it's not technically generating any more sales.

Piss off the loyal little guys, or keep working with the BS program that will eventually be shutdown?!?!

Brad Mitchell

10-15-2006 12:44 AM

This would be the first time that I have found myself dissapointed with AFF. I suspect that we'll hear more on this subject soon, though, and hope for a more thoughtful and pro-active response. I don't believe that they are beyond reproach, I hope that they innovate beyond this and take the high road on the subject though.

Cheers,

Brad

sacX	10-15-2006 12:50 AM

I think the conflict between having affiliates and buying traffic from Zango is too great. You need to choose, one or the other :).

rigrunner

10-15-2006 02:36 AM

I just don't understand where the AFF legal team is.....This mess is an easy one to sort out...Are they on holiday or something???

:(

Zuss	10-15-2006 02:45 AM

Maybe these large sales boni are backed up by parasiteware installs.

V_RocKs

10-15-2006 03:17 AM

200 yet?

V_RocKs

10-15-2006 03:24 AM

What this thread needs is some law and order...

http://users.aol.com/dwalheim/lawandorder/nbc33b.gif

"One website wants to be the biggest. One website just wants to keep its market share. All of this in an election year..."

Jon Clark - BANNED FOR LIFE

10-15-2006 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V_RocKs (Post 11079167)

lol...............

munki

10-15-2006 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 11078269)

I put it down to a lot of lorry drivers who can build an engine but do not have a clue about the load in the back of the truck. good delivery men but poor salesmen.

:thumbsup

Paul Markham

10-15-2006 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rigrunner (Post 11079059)

I just don't understand where the AFF legal team is.....This mess is an easy one to sort out...Are they on holiday or something???

:(

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacX (Post 11078760)

I think the conflict between having affiliates and buying traffic from Zango is too great. You need to choose, one or the other :).

Maybe they see more profit in buying traffic from their affiliates, via Zango, and then making big offers and threads on GFY. Than fighting with their lawyers.
:2 cents:

Klen	10-15-2006 06:13 AM

This thing with zango is still on?Cant belive.

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