Yes, it's a great book.

Radical Islam is the new totalitarianism.

yea, it was weird how in the very end, the last 40 pages or so were propaganda for socialism, twist at the end

"One of the great attractions of patriotism - it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat. Bully and cheat, what's more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous." - Aldous Leonard Huxley

Then how about you quit posting in every political thread? :2 cents:

'My country right or wrong!' is propaganda. What you read was a reasoned argument in favor of recognizing our common humanity. Too bad it went over your head.

i enjoy your insanity. for 10 years now actually. its interesting.

i deeply appreciate warped human behavior and am genuinely entertained by watching you banter on with your extremist rants, when we both know that deep down, you are wishing with all your heart that you could secretly meet with the worlds worst and most murderous dictators of the past to discuss what went wrong, so you could start planning how to get rid of everyone who does not share your personal views as they are simply wrong, traitors and "in the way" of creating a perfect, hippy utopia which is free from those who might dissagree with your "always soooo obviously right" world view.

its also oddly amusing, seeing a poly sci major from berkley be so out of touch with what democracy and freedom of speech is.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.
\
:glugglug

have you seen the movie adaptation? great porno!

I think its funny that we live in a world where the biggest threat is extremist muslims but some people are so blinded as to spend their time fearing an imaginary danger (the US)

sure, once it started, my interest waned and i put the book down

We had to read it in grade 9 and again in college AND watch the movie. In grade 12 we had to read and watch 1984. I guess they don't assign important books in school anymore? ;)

I don't know if I will ever get over my hate of Animal Farm, but Goethe's Faust was one of the ones that I had trouble with in school and I love that story today. In pretty much all the different versions :thumbsup

Congrats on your mastery of the slippery slope arguement. You mother might be proud but there's a logic teacher somewhere out there whos heart just broke!

Do yourselves a HUGE favor

If you can get it...the 50th anniversary LE hardcover illustrated by Ralph Steadman is the SHIT

I was lucky enough to get one of VERY few copies flat signed by Steadman, a real treasure.

Hey, it IS a Brave New World. :1orglaugh

I haven't read it too, but I guess I will some time.

But read 1984, it's a great book. The world presented in it is even more cruel than our world. Imagine that you are always watched, anything you do...don't think that it's that way now :1orglaugh

You honestly believe that muslims extremists are the biggest threat to the world? :1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

And you probably believe that when the US invaded Afghanistan, we liberated Afghani women from the chains imposed by the wicked Taliban...

The main square in Riyadh is known locally as "chop-chop" square because every Friday those who break "sharia" (religious law) are punished there in public. They may lose one or both hands. Sometimes they are executed. The bottoms of their feet may be beaten so they are unable to walk. In Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to go out unless completely covered and without a note from their husbands giving them permission to leave the house, they can be whipped by the religious police. They are not allowed to drive. Their right to vote is in its infancy. Job opportunities are strictly limited.

In short, Saudi Arabia is one of the strictest moslem countries. It is also the major source of terrorist funds. Neither of these things is a secret, yet because the Sauds are our allies, there is little public comment, let alone official criticism of these realities. By comparison, before we invaded Afghanistan, we were told over and over about the dreadful impositions of the religious Taliban on the women of that country. In fact, most of the things we heard about had nothing whatever to do with the Taliban or the moslem religion, they were local traditions and attitudes going back thousands of years. They are as much in place today as before we tore that country apart.

The biggest lie of all is the implication that moslems - or at least moslem "extremists" - are fundamentally evil people who have no other aim in life except to destroy America. This emotive message shortcircuits for most, the obvious question as to why they have this intent (if indeed they do).

In 1953 the CIA instigated a military coup that overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran. For the next 20-odd years, the Shah of Iran remained in power courtesy of his CIA-trained SAVAK (secret police). At times there were 20,000 CIA agents in Iraq while SAVAK's death squads massacred thousands of the Shah's opponents to crush the population into docility.

During the Iran-Iraq war, fostered by the US and even while we had advisers in Iran, Saddam Hussein was given weapons by the US, and maps showing him where to point these weapons. And on and on. For more than three-quarters of a century, we have been busy earning the enmity of the region, just as we have done in parts of South America and Asia.

The specter of religious extremism has been planted to scare our own people, so that instead of asking questions they will approve policies which can only further the divide. Certainly the threat against us is very real and certainly many of our enemies are moslems. However they are not our enemies because they are moslems, but because of what we did and because of what we are still doing.

Buy that or not, it doesn't really matter. The bottom line is that over 20% of the world's population is moslem and in more than 50 countries moslems are the majority. Islam is growing at a faster rate than the world population. Those numbers should tell even the most gung-ho "patriot" there is no way we can shoot and bomb our way out of the current situation. The choice is not between right wing and left wing ideals, Republican and Democrat dogma. It is whether or not we want the world to actually be a safer place. If we do, then we need to stop the empire building which, if we had listened to Thomas Jefferson and others, we should never have started in the first place.

this fairy tale *almost* works until you point out to the anti-American crowd that jayeff is a card carrying member of that muslims are killing people in the Sudan, India, Indonesia, Spain, UK, Somalia, Thailand, Nigeria, Netherlands and many other countries and when they're not killing "others" they're killing each other.


tell me, jayeff, which "empires" are these other countries building thats making muslims kill there?:1orglaugh

jayeff, would you agree though, that fundamentalism in itself is dangerous, and can breed irrational hate? And that religious dogma in the form of theocracies is at odds with and incompatible to western ideals such as free speech, inalienable rights, fair trials, etc.?

The religious wars between Christianity, Islam, and everything in between has waged long before the US existed. While we may have added fodder or inflamed the situation, I'm not sure that we're the source of this unfolding (or ongoing) dilemma.

a) For hundreds of years the middle east was the trading crossroads between Europe and the Far East. There wasn't a hint of tension, religious or otherwise between the local cultures and those to which the region was exposed. On the contrary, France and Britain in particular built strong ties and it wasn't until the 1960's that the last country in the area got around to claiming independence from Britain.

Incidentally, if you do go back to the Crusades, the last time war was waged between Christianity and Islam, Christians were the aggressors then too and the conduct of the Crusaders was frequently barbaric.

b) Mid-east terrorism abroad did not begin with 9/11, it was well under way 30 years ago and no-one pretended it was anything other than a tool being used by the PLO to fight their grievances. It is only since other groups began striking at US-related targets that the religious card was thrown into play and for what purpose, except to keep the folks back home solidly in line. The illusion that we are being attacked solely out of blind and irrational hatred, is an excellent way to prevent anyone asking inconvenient questions.

Regardless, as I wrote earlier, you don't need to buy my perspective because it almost doesn't matter exactly how we got to where we are today. All you have to do is ask is that now we are here, will the world be a safer place as a result of our current policies? I suspect few believe it will be and although he was talking only about the situation in Iraq, General Petraeus could easily have been talking in a much broader context when he said this week "The war cannot be won militarily. It can only be won politically."

no reply?

I guess its easier to seem right when you ignore the key questions.

Will be hard for him, he has to ask his wife/girlfriend to read it for him as he does with the GFY posts. Then he tells her what to write in the reply.