Hard sciences (biology, physics, etc) and religion are not the same thing, if only by degree. We can equate just about anything if we play enough semantics. But it's also true that some people treat science as if it was a religion - accepting scientific data as facts that cannot be questioned, treating scientists like faultless Gods who know everything, etc. And there are some "sciences" that are arguably just religions - specifically social sciences.

Traditional science attempts to observe and understand the underlying principles of the physical world by experimentation. It doesn't make moral or ethical judgements about those principles, nor does it give any metaphysical purpose for it. If a principle is found to be valid and allows us to make predictions, we assume them to be true unless there are alternative testable explanations. In this way, science is quite limited but it's the best tool we have for understanding the physical world.

yeah i know, but at the time it was a common belief by the majority of people that the world was flat and the sun did revolve around the Earth. based on what was known and the tools available, this is what made most sense to them. obviously gallileo was correct and the church eventually acknowledged his findings. it was too late though, he was already burning in hell :).

anyway it's a perfect example of why you should keep an open mind. just because something appears to work one way now, doesn't mean we won't determine it works a different way in the future. it's foolish to think we won't learn more about our universe and how it all works in the future.

we're barely able to leave the planet, but we've proven 100% there is no God? lol get real. that's just wishful thinking. everyone wants to feel secure. they want to know they're right. it doesn't matter if you're a bible thumper or an atheist, buying into a belief system 100% does nothing more than provide you with some sort of comfort.

life is a mystery. it always has been. it probably always will be.

If a significant proportion of kids can't read well enough to understand what they're being taught, making them study religion is a futile exercise. Basics need to be taught first, everything else second.

horrible arguments. do you deliberately cry when you're sad? do you deliberately shoot cum when you orgasm? do you deliberately pump blood through your body? no, there is a physical mechanism behind it that can be explained. BUT that doesn't mean i'm not conscious of it all. i don't consciouslly control the flow of blood through my body, but i'm aware of it because i'd be fucking dead if it wasn't.

where is that theory of everything? oh yeah, no one has figured it out yet.

So quite simply in your opinion nature just "is" and always "has been" and it has "laws" that are constant. There IS something we cant even comprehend guiding those "laws". Prove me wrong.

They weren't arguments slappy they were questions. You noticed the question marks at the end of each of them, yes?

I am trying to figure out what Splum is saying because he isn't doing too good a job of it himself.

I'm not interested in proving you wrong. That there is something guiding those laws is something you choose to believe, in spite of the fact nobody knows and probably will never know.

I choose to be honest and say I don't know. You choose to believe something someone else told you.

Answer me this one question Splum and be honest. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God and that he died on the cross for your sins? A simple yes or no will suffice.

You wouldnt call that "God"?

No I do not.

The word god has an unpleasant stigma attached to it and as I do not subscribe to any theistic belief I reject the word. I do not believe in a personal god. I do not believe there is any consciousness or intelligent force behind it all. However I believe there may be a higher power, but I prefer to refer to it as nature and natural laws. How they came to be I do not know and will probably never know. I do not believe in an afterlife.

That about sums up what I believe.

nice
regarding "a higher power, but i prefer to refer to it as nature and natural laws" is totally cool. for a higher power did create existence. it had to. the higher power is the force that made this.

now it's up to a person to call that higher power what they want.

hawkings recently make the analogy that our reality/universe is a bubble that expanded from a pot of boiling water and did not burst, but kept expanding. he said that was pure chance. so, the higher power is the hot water the bubble came from. hot water is a thing. however, because we are human, we see the hot water as a human (human god) as well, for we cannot understand the hot waters true nature.

Splum: Science changes all the time because new evidence is brought forth, new testing techniques are developed, new discoveries are found, etc.

Science evolves. Religion changes very little, is not dependant on evidence, is impossible to test, and relies on its followers to be just that...followers, people who believe in a story that has no evidence. Judaism is about the only mainstream religion I can think of that's made any major changes for the better over the centuries. Most people in the US believe in God because it's what's fashionable to do, and it's what has been drilled into the heads of all US citizens from birth. When this viewpoint if forced upon you from an early age, then it becomes the truth for you. When you look at most mainstream religions (and this is especially true for Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) from a logical perspective, religion begins to fall apart. The best question you can ask a Christian, for example, is this: "Can God make a rock so big that he cannot move it?".

Another point about US Christians is this...we, the people of the USA, are about the most arrogant, egocentric motherfuckers on the face of the planet. We are so egotistical that we believe that we will live forever. Religion fuels this egocentricity; concepts of an afterlife that will allow us to live forever after we leave this world in a wonderful world of peace and happiness with an almighty loving God. Shit, even as a kid I disputed the teachings of Christianity, and when I became an adult, I outright dismissed it because it's so full of holes (holy? hehe) that it simply cannot be trusted. And you also have the people who pick and choose what they want from the Bible and ignore the rest. You really think you're a Christian? Then cut off your arm if you ever steal something, poke out your own eye if you look at someone else's wife, and throw the babies of your enemies against rocks. Stone your own children to death in the town square. Why? Because the Bible says so. Do we really want to be teaching this stuff in public school? Oh wait...they get to conveniently skip this stuff.

I could go on for hours and hours but I'll spare you all the misery. And what I've said isn't hate, it's disdain for the hypocrisy of modern "Christians" who aren't even remotely Christ-like (Christian = Christ-like, and I've yet to see one single person being Christ-like).

I agree with much of what you say here bhutocracy. The problem with biblical studies is that those that generally do the teaching do so from a biased perspective and often carry their own subtle agenda's into the classroom. However I would say that because religion plays such an important role in everyone's lives whether they realise it or not, it should be covered as part of a cirriculum but from a more neutraly academic perspective more factualy focused than dogmatic so a student would be given a more rounded insight into the so often bizzare world of religion from the outset.

Sadly with religious groups still weilding quite scary amounts of influence within the educational system as a whole I can't see it happening anytime soon :Oh crap

I think Richard Dawkins has done a great job dealing with this issue in his latest book, the God Delusion. Anyone that is convinced that moderate religion is good for society, should read it and be shocked, the arguments are water-tight.

The subject of the thread is should religion be taught in K12 not a debate about the virtues and pitfalls of religion. :)
While I respect your analysis of religion itself, religion is more prevalent in this world than many subject K12 students are taught. To learn to comprehend and have basic knowledge of religion is an important skill every young person needs.

Thread title "TIME Mag Cover: Should the Bible be Taught in Public Schools?"
My answer is yes, but not because I condone one religion over another and want to spread a gospel but religion has an incredible influence(good and bad) on this planet. So I would appreciate it if YOU stop spreading YOUR gospel in a thread that isnt trying to spread any gospel. Your comment is as pathetic as a christian defending the bible in this thread.

This is such bullshit. The damned question was "do you believe in a higher power?" That could be anything from a Buddhist "prime mover" to Donald Duck. The original question (the one this news story never mentions) wasn't "Do you believe in a bible-based god?"

*I* believe in some kind of "higher power" (I'm from Southern California - it's required). *I* think evolution as a working theorem may not be the last word (the fossil record is sketchy so, being scientists, we have to reserve the possibility of error). And I'm an agnostic. I HATE the idea of the Bible being taught as a requirement in school -- I don't want my kid being taught fairy tales with my tax dollars. If I wanted to send my kids to a Christian school like I escaped from at an early age, I'd do so.

"God" doesn't mean a christian god by default. Everyone means something different by that word. This news story was minted by the Robertson clowns then peddled by the extremists in the EU media as an excuse for dissing Americans. It's bullshit.

Richard Dawkins is just another village atheist in sheep's clothing. I recommend Robert Anton Wilson's books. Unfortunately, Bob died not long ago, but his books live on. It helps people see through everybody's bullshit -- mine, yours, God's, Richard Dawkins', etc, etc.

Why do you assume anyone thinks it means christian based God? You people and your anti-christian hatred are just as bad as the bible thumpers. 90% of America believe in God, that is the outcome of the poll period.
You want your kids to be confused and ignorant of religion which will affect their world every day? To not teach them the basics about what religion means and how it affect their lives is handicapping their ability to cope with religious influence.

To defend the use of the bible in classrooms with some poll saying 90% of Americans believe in "god" is ludicrous. That was my point. Christianity is a comparatively tiny, new religion -- notions of "god" pre-exist Christianity by thousands of years.

The bible is a piece of Christian religious literature. It's not about "god", it's about the Christian religion's peculiar notions of "god".

You want YOUR kids taught the bible? Fine -- send them to a Christian school. Public schools should teach reading, writing and arithmetic. To sneak the bible in the back door in a "literature" context is, imho, disingenuous. I'd feel the same way about the Koran, or Dawkins' views of atheism, or anything else not grounded in function and fact.

When Christians allow Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, gay people, and everyone else (including porn webmasters) to have their own groups in school without constantly trying to bully them into submission, then I have no problem with school-based Christian groups. Until such time, if there has to be one religion, it must be a secular one.

great way of thinking :thumbsup

I guess all religions should be taught to a basic degree. Not only can children then make thier own minds up, but they can understand different religions etc meaning understanding different cultures and ways of life etc.

You mean basic things like evolution and science too?
You do realize those are "theories" and there is a ton of faith put into both.

The bible is an IMPORTANT historical book just as the Koran and other texts. Its funny you should mention atheism because thats exactly what they teach in schools. So your kids are already being "back doored" with your blessings.

Again with the attack against christians, you are a biggot I can see why you are so full of idiotic viewpoints. Tolerance is something religions teach, obviously you have never learned it.

Do you mind if I interject here ?*

Are you eluding to monetheism here ?


Very well put.


Again very well put.



Only the truth will set us free - the secular world is mainly just an extention of the religious one.

religion has a huge influence in world politics, wars, business, etc. but you don't wanna educate your children about them? that's just as bad as those people that send their children to those christain brainwashing camps. i feel bad for anyone that grows up not understanding religions and their role in many peoples lives. you can sit here and be an ignorant fuck saying they cause nothing but problems and have never done any good for you, but every person here today has been influenced by them. we are where we're at today because of them. our current laws, politics, and personal belief systems have been molded by them.

no one with an open mind should be shunning the study of religions.

You keep failing to give any specifics. Why don't you tell us how religion would be studied. What sort of class are you talking about and what religious texts would be looked at? How would the material be covered? Would you present all religious texts (i.e. the bible and the koran) as equally valid?

Give us some specifics Splum.

should evolution be taught in church? leave the bible where it belongs.

and where exactly is that I wonder ?

ah, good, got somebody's attention.

actually, I think it's amusing (and sad) that people seem to think evolution and religion are mutually exclusive. why couldn't god have created the earth the way scientists say it began, and let evolution take over from there?

All it takes to be set free is to lose your fear :thumbsup

Ah, so quickly round to god but nevermind. ....." God created the earth the way scientists say it began" ........Which scientists & which theories feed your statement I wonder..........

The bible is an IMPORTANT historical book just as the Koran and other texts. Its funny you should mention atheism because thats exactly what they teach in schools. So your kids are already being "back doored" with your blessings.


though we never had a teacher say" there is no god" or "there IS a god",
we did have one teacher who had us read Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn, which raised the interesting thought that every creation story, such as Genesis, is just that: a story. That led to quite the spirited debate, as I recall. Most kids in my class were Christian and quite offended by it. I never really felt atheism was being taught in that class though. our teacher encouraged us to have our own viewpoints, share them, and respect those of others.

my sister declared she was an atheist one day in grade school and almost got kicked out for causing a disruption. she only declared it because someone else said anyone who didn't believe in god was stupid. (this was during a class discussion.)

what difference does it make which scientists & which theories? pick one. let's say the universe began with the "big bang". who's to say god didn't orchaestrate the big bang?

by the way, I do not believe in "God". I believe in the interconnectedness of all beings and all energies. There may or may not be a "higher power" of some sort holding it all together.

Sorry Splum, I erased the quote box in #112. that first paragraph's yours. nobody ever accused me of being computer-savvy.

how about if schools started teaching satanism?

We arent talking about teaching how to practice satanism but the history and beliefs of satanists.

When you say "valid" what do you mean by that? I would encourage all major religions to be studied to some extent but not how to "worship" those religions. I think people get that confused when I say teach it in schools.

to teach the bible teaches how to live like a jew and xtian

Thats like saying to teach the works of shakespeare is teaching how to practice infidelity. Look this thread is for intelligent people dimwit.

Then if you do not belive in god isn't your first statement somewhat superfluous & contradictory to your second statement ?