suck it woj....

Ummm...don't they have to FIND cp on your computer to throw you in jail? I highly doubt if one of my neighbors is downloading cp on my wireless connect, they're going to throw me in jail when there was no record of those files being on my computer. Even cops can figure out that wireless connections can be piggybacked.

WOW This Thread is still going strong....

Anyway, GatorB U stated...

and I really don't want to get into a heavy disqussion bout it, but I beg to difer, have to say I run my own network and right now with bout 4 or 5 laptops currently connected... (@ this moment, still early)

and each individual machine has its own wireless IP address assigned to it even though its all on my network / router...

so if one of them is my neighbors and he DL's CP its his machine and wireless IP that'll be traced regardless of who is providing the connection...

So I'd be considered the unofficial ISP in that case and they might come to me to find out who the ip bellongs to, (since its my router providing the connection) but I'm sure I wont be the one getting in trouble for it, unless it was one of my machines on my premisses

Your absolutely right, read my post above they would trace the DL to the machines IP not the router...

That's the standard for sure, EXCEPT there are exceptions. That's several cases I've run into in the past year. People thinking only a certain number of computers were on their wireless but finding out later there were more. I don't know all the particulars but that's what was going on. Piggybackers not showing up, masking IPs, etc. These people are good! They busted several in my neighborhood who would be like a mile away from the source signal and using some sort of booster and masking devices. The ones that got busted got busted for not just piggybacking but for the typical stuff like cp and mostly pirating software/hacking.

It's a highly technical area that one safeguard today gets beaten tomorrow and so on.

don't count on it

If somebody is using my connection and downloads cp, and the cops come to MY house and search MY computer, and find NO traces of what was downloaded, I'm not going to the pokey...plain and simple.

That's the flaw in your logic. The cops don't do some magic little 5 minute search of your computer in your home. If they come, they ARREST you. They charge you on suspicion of downloading/possessing cp, they confiscate your computer(s) and everything related to your computer and online business they can find, and they send it off to a forensic analysis location until they can figure out what they're dealing with and what evidence they can find against you or, yes, anyone who may have been using your connection.

Now, whether they can identify an individual user from your computer, as in someone who may have been sitting outside your house in their vehicle hijacking your signal, is another matter. If they can't, YOU my friend would be on the hook in full.

And even if they don't find anything cp-related on your hd, your life is disrupted big time by their intrusion and charges etc. The only thing "plain and simple" here is what I've already said twice in this thread.... stop rationalizing. Theft is theft. Period. I would rather have a law like this in place than have it be legal for some anon fuckhead to sit out front of my house in his car raping my signal and downloading (or uploading) god knows what.

That isn't what I was saying . . . however, if an IP trace is done, and your ISP contacted to find out who it belongs to, you will be the one they come visiting first. I can promise you that.

If you don't mind the legal expenses, head on.

Ah, now this is true.

In addition however, when law enforcement does so and fucks up, the ramifications to that agency could be devestating. Especially if you're a journalist or use your computer for intellectual properties.

One mistake, just ONE and agents and directors could lose their heads big time.

Constitutional issues arise and it's more delicate than walking a spider's web.

That's why the crime has to be so outrageous, that upon a cursory examination it's plain as day then the following procedures are engaged in.

Confiscation even on suspicion, done wrong could and often does lead to disastrous criminal, punitive and political damage that's damn near irrevocable especially if the suspect is a politico, has spoken out against injustices etc.

A good lawyer is going to bring all that up. If the prosecutor is friends with the mayor and the suspect is outspoken against the mayor's policies then it's a tangled web.

These operations are very tricky. You could be minding your business and someone could be operating as you with IP masking and impersonation. Forensics are good but not perfect. If the law uses a forensics expert that the public can't access nor afford for defense the judge may not allow that evidence in court because it's not fair. It depends on several factors.

Bottom line is if you're going to invade privacy, confiscate without due process, compromise birthrights, you had better have a good damned excuse or it'll cost severely if in error.

True, but what you're saying only has teeth if you can afford to sue them.

And the legal system has a funny way of dealing with those who want to sue the cops, DA etc. They tend to find new charges to bring against you to bog you down in legal fees until eventually you can't afford to sue them. THEN you're off the hook.

Oh no no! If you have a sound case against fraudulent, criminal activity conducted by law enforcement you can find counsel easily. Those charges must be clear cut as an attorney will find investors to back you up. I grew up in a rich section of the country. To this day there are no burglaries etc. Reason why is because the rich folks there know what to do when a cop goes off the rails. Especially when it comes to Constitutional issues.

Many lawsuits against seemingly insurmountable odds are in fact funded by people who are looking to cash in. Often foreign investors chime in. They figure if they toss in a few hundred thousand maybe but the haul after appeals etc. is $20 million and they're getting a good chunk of that, it's literally better than even money.

Heck, in some cases their money is insured!

The workings of the courts make Wall Street look like a baseball card convention.

Also, tonight we tried an experiment regarding wi-fi spots. We travelled just 2 miles in four directions and turned on our laptops. In each case there were several open and several secure wi fi connections. Each of us with different brand laptops watched as by default the computers latched onto one connection. When that signal got weak, it latched onto another. Often without a prompt!

So theoretically, you could be surfing on your own wi fi and then latch onto someone elses. Also some creep could be using their wi fi and latch onto yours.

It's very confusing and worth further study.

Uh, sorry, it's yes yes yes to what I said. It may be different where you're from, I have no idea, you haven't deined to put the name of your country in your location field. But don't presume to school me on how it is with sueing the cops friend, because you're way off base.

This incident happened in the US, so it is to N Americans I am basically speaking to. And here, well... I invite you to get yourself into a situation as previously described where the cops have a hardon for you, and then try to sue them and see what happens.

However... I'll give you this much: In the USA there ARE attorney's who will jump at certain cases and take them on the basis that they get paid only if you win. That doesn't happen all that often in Canada, at least not to my knowledge. Most lawyers here want their fees paid, period, and they are hefty. The legal system knows how to drain you dry when you've previously been charged with a criminal offense and then later try to sue the crown and/or the cops.

Don't belive me? That's fine, hopefully you'll never have to find out the hard way that I am right.

Thats absolutely true, but you have to admit, most peeps are not that technically gifted in boosting and masking devices...

In most cases as in this case I'm trully sure that these people are to stupid to even use booster and masking devices otherwise they woudn't be sitting in a parking lot, and getting caught that easily...

If they had these talents they'd be using them and wouldn't have to go to the locations parking lots in the first place...

But I guess thats what U ment when U said there are exceptions, never mind me I'm just waking up

It should DEFINITELY NOT be considered theft. It's not like this guy has the option to pay while he's in his car for the service. He turns on his laptop and connects. I believe it should be up to the cafe to encrypt their signal. Just like with satellites, there was a whole grey market thing when they first weren't encrypted allowing regular home users to simply 'catch' signals since it is directed into their own homes. In Canada, the carrier must encrypt their signal, otherwise it wouldn't be considered theft since anyone at home has the right to catch signals coming into their own homes. This guy is in a public place, the cafe's signal is reaching him outside so that's the cafe's responsiblity to either setup a system where people have to pay, or encrypt it and not allow people to catch it outside.

Bullshit. He knew he could get free wi-fi ther. If you are suggesting he just HAPPEND by ACCIDENT to find free wi-fi you are stupid.

So they PAYING customers that want to use it should have to go through hopps to conect? Kind of takes away the benefit of offering free wi-fi. Why couldn't this dude go in and buy a cup of coffee and then becomes a customers than is entitled to use of the free wi-fi?

There isn't any grey areas. There are laws on the books.

Sorry the parking lot of the cafe is NOT public. A city or county park is PUBLIC. PUBLIC means your tax $$$ paid for it, like a CITY park. Parking lots on private property are still part of that property. Is your driveway public?

Once again why should the PAYING patrons of the cafe have to go though hoops to take advantage of free wi-fi just because some douchebag is too cheap to get his own internet access or buy a cup of coffee?

Also by using your logic if my neighbor want to use my outdoor electical outlets without my permission that's ok because I should have made sure he didn't have easy access to them.

Nate, make sure you get an Ipod or something from GFY for this thread. Anyone know if they still giveaway stuff for the longest/most viewed threads?

Good one, :thumbsup Damn This Thread is still kicking, Holly shit :pimp

Agreed, Its called a SHARED or PUBLIC network for a reason. :thumbsup

Exactly Public is public regardless of whether tax dollars payed for it or someone has donated it.

Dont setup / donate anything you can't really afford to give away publicly

So if you leave your house or car door unlocked I can SHARE your stuff with myself?

If I left my house unlocked INTENTIONALLY and not by accident, and put a sign on the outside saying FREE STUFF HERE, Im sure you would go in and grab something wouldnt you? lol.

You can really tell the age group in this thread

And I would still be breaking the law.

its still stealing dickhead.

my god you people are fucking thick.

you would have to make it clear that your intent is for people to come inside and take whatever they want, or clearly mark those things which you are offering for free. otherwise, people can't just assume, walk in and start taking shit.

Are people really still arguing this? When you take something that isn't yours without permission of the owner, it's theft. There's no gray area here.

And to make things even more clear here, Michigan has a law specifically for this. You cannot access someone's network without their authorization. By doing so, you're breaking the law.

Unfortunately the rest of the country does not it would seem. As I seem to remember 5 pages of replies ago, the cafe did have a sign up that said FREE WIFI HERE. I hate to say it but in this day and age it should be legal unless they have an asterik at the bottom saying *with purchase or something

If you owned a business would you like NON-customers to be using your wi-fi for FREE? I can't believe how many people are on the side of a guy to cheap to spend $1 on coffee. That would ahve solved the whole issue.

Hey from the business owners perspective I completely agree and Im definitely not on the cheap guys "side", Im playing devils advocate and the thread was that he was arrested, if you want to get into the morality of it this thread could go on for 5 more pages, I was just talking about legalities :)

He wasn't at the cafe, however. He was outside.

I don't know about you, but I sure wouldn't want to test that theory.

Correct, outside where the sign clearly said FREE WIFI HERE. WITHOUT the disclaimer, I know its a small loophole, but hey...someone sued McDonalds because they didnt have "Caution: Hot" on the outside. haha

The wifi signal was unencrypted.... free and in the clear.

It would be like if someone started a pay radio station, put it free and in the clear on say 1400 AM, and said that the station was only for those that had paid a subscription fee...... would it be theft if you tuned your radio to 1400AM and listened??? Hardly.


Same with a pay website, if they said that memberships were $20 a month, but had no password protection... and then went around recording IP's and laying charges against anyone that happens to land on their website.... ridiculous.

These cases should have never made it to charges.

I'm a big believer in COMMON SENSE. COMMON SENSE tells you that the sign doesn't mean free wi-fi for the whole planet. He knew that. So he's either a thief or so stupid that he should have his computer privileges permanently revoked.

So am I, but as they say, Common Sense isnt so common :pimp

So. Doesn't matter

Go put up your pay radio station without FCC approval and see what happens. You're analogy is flawed.


Ok so tell me where you live and what kind of car you drive. Eventually you'll leave your door unlocked. I'll help myself to your shit and you better not press charges. After all if you didn't want me to have acces to your shit you'd have kept your door locked.

I am going to be nice and change my original reply.

Only in the US of A

Wow, I still can't believe this thread really caught all this attention :pimp

I don't think he was driving around with his laptop searching his whole city for unsecured networks. He probably got some coffee there once then started messing around on his laptop and realised he could connect from the internet from there. It's quite easy even for starters to get connected to a wireless network. It also doesn't say ANYWHERE that it's illegal to use a public wireless network. I think it should at least be stated somewhere at the cafe near him or on his computer so he knew wtf he was doing.

You make it sound like he was hunting for networks to leech. If he knew he was doing something illegal, why would he be so honest to the cop? The cop didn't even know he was doing something illegal, it took him one fucking year to find out. That should say enough.

And please people don't compare this to speeding because you learn that shit on your driving lessons and it's stated everywhere on signs.

Anyway everyone has his own opinion about this. Even tho I disagree with you, I can respect it and see where it's coming from. I'm out :2 cents: :thumbsup

you dont know what was going through his mind... i dont know what was going through his mind. i am not trying to read minds.

as i and others have said.. he knows internet connections cost money. he knows its not HIS connection he is connecting to. end of story. the burden is on him to do the right thing... not on others to stop him from doing the wrong thing.

If he had bought some coffee he would have been a CUSTOMER and not charged.

So just by "messing around" he "accidently" finds the free connection. The sign saying FREE WI-FI he failed to see that.

hhaa that's actually pretty funny

Agree BVF - tho that was just another diverting hypothesis that someone could be downloading CP. They could also be doing a string of other illegal stuff the same as anyone with net access.

You are right - the law is based on actual evidence collected as part of an investigation with the object of establishing who a perp actually is. It's called the justice system :winkwink:

Some folks must think LE are really very dumb :)

And how would the police get the evidence that you were not in fact downloading CP on your computer? Oh wait they would CONVISCATE your computer. And don't think your name and address wouldn't be in the news for the "suspicion" of having CP. Even if your computer comes back clean and you were never charged, the stigma will stay with you for a long time.

lol cheap!!

I would have done the same!!! but at leats I would get myself a van!

This is the nail on the head right here. Here is an example for you. If you go to a gas station and they have FREE air to fill your tires, you can go and get the air without "purchasing" anything else. You are automatically a "customer". So, if the sign says "Free internet here", it's free. Just like the air.

I've read some of this thread a while ago, and some just now. If there was a sign posted with the asterisk, as stated in the above quote, it's a different story. It think that pretty much sums things up.

:2 cents:

yeah right... shit always happen... :)

Many cities have free open wifi to attract business to their cities so now
who the fuck knows what is and what isn't legal. If I go to a city and it has free wifi but I connect to the MacDonalds or starbucks in the hotel when I'm trying to find the city free wifi I can go to jail ?