PHP is secure enough, the chances of someone getting your server to steal the code is pretty slim. And anything core related that needs speed should always be done in C.. So encoding most PHP is retarted unless you are giving it out for others to use.

What do you consider a "real" project?

In my opinion, anything that serves a purpose is real. Whether it is the Linux kernel or Wordpress.

That's the real point of it, though - to prevent others from stealing your code.

I can't really understand people using encoded scripts. There is no way to check security, and if the company that made a script you use ever disappears, you are basically fucked.

To me, they are all real projects.. But making something in VB for windows, or coding google maps, the backend of booking systems, bank software, ect.. that's real programming.

PHP is scripting, it's still programming but bullshit aside, a 10 year old can learn PHP.

Thats why we found an Inturn. We make him do all of the work we don't. Now I have more time for impotant things like GFY. :thumbsup !

This is not the point of the thread anyway.

To get to the root of the problem, generally freelancers quit a job when they realize that they have to work more to complete the job than they estimated, which means that they get below their hourly payment limit. Or, they get a better payed job (at least this is what they think) until they realize that they will not be able to solve the new one in the given time frame and move to the next job and so on.

Egomancer

Learning PHP is simple, making working scripts in PHP is simple, making functional, secure scripts in PHP is not quite as simple.

As for 10 year olds... I can still remember being overjoyed with having QBasic on my computer when I was 10 years old :1orglaugh

Check security? If you need me to code you something you don't know how to check security anyway.

I do not encode all of my php scripts, or if I do it's often just the core that works with another block of software, like nats, which is done to protect my secrets. However, I don't encode it because of the fear of them stealing it, I do it to keep them from breaking it.

And my clients have asked to not encode things, so I don't. But they do pay extra and for support if they break it. Otherwise, I don't mind doing the bulk work and passing off the shit work to your coders.

My partner and I are very reliable... I am currently booked for the next month but can schedule time after that (we are open). I am not going to say that I have never taken a job and not finished it but everyone has issues at some point in their career. I have always given a refund for projects I didn't finish.

That said...
There are also 2 jobs I have taken over the last 5 years that haven't turned out right... the first one I quit working on because the agreement we had was that he would pay be regular payments until the project was finished with progress demos from my side. I carried my part of the deal but he decided not to pay... so I didn't finish the job. The second was caused by my wife having a baby and I completed the majority of that job but was unable to finish the last feature (which was something extra I offered to do anyway)

What about programming the heat seeker of a Patriot rocket on a specialized chip?
Pattern recognition of the satellite images?
Weather forecasts?
Financial market (FOREX) forecasts?
Traffic balancing?

and the list goes on. And before you ask, NO, ERPs and CRMs are NOT real projects...

Egomancer

Umm... You say "coding google maps" is real programming, then you go on to say PHP is scripting, hence a 10 year old can do it? Google maps is all JavaScript brotha, get your shit straight.

Just quit while your ahead.

google maps is all javascript?

No, javascript is only the method with which we view the maps.

LOL, thanks for the advice :P

Egomancer

"Coding google maps" implies using Google's API to create custom maps, that's done through JavaScript.

Not always the case, I personally outsource from time to time since my time is most efficiently spent solving those "complex" problems. Before throwing anything on a live server I glance through to make sure that everything is secure and optimized, or at least looks like it.

I occasionally hire coders to do work I don't want to do myself, or simply don't have time to do myself. Being a programmer, I of course check every line of code myself.

Annoying GFY hangs :\

Not always true.. most interpreted languages have hooks into many C/C++ libraries, so you can have the rapid development those languages typically give you, with the speed of C for the important, intensive stuff.

Theres really not much use for C or C++ in the *vast* majority of situations in the adult/webmaster world..

Ehm, even those things often aren't in C/C++.

And why aren't ERPs and CRMs real projects? They can be incredibly advanced.

Seriously, I suggest you get off your high horse, and realize that "real" programming is doing whatever is needed for a specific task, in whatever language is best suited for it.

Because there is no real challenge in ERPs and CRMs - and before jumping with a stupid comment you should know that I have worked on this kind of stuff for like 2 years. They are huge - the ERPs at least, that is for sure, but huge does not mean complicated or they do not pose a challenge once you know them. Consequently they are no "real" projects after my definition.

You are correct - in the end the "real" programming is the one that brings you food on the table...

Egomancer

The basic functions aren't a challenge, true.

It becomes fun when the program starts analyzing statistics, and starts learning from existing statistics to make predictions on new/potential clients and accounts.

It's the same with seemingly simple things, such as serving ads on webpages. The basics are mindnumbingly boring, but I can assure you that the technology behind something like adsense is extremely interesting.

There's a difference between flaking out and being too busy. You sent me the documentation, I reviewed it and said, "I'd probably be able to start within the next few days." I didn't end up having the extra time, so I never started.

I ignored all your support tickets, because I decided to stop doing business with you. So yeah you're right, you "won't ever use him again."

The ones I have worked with either did not have those features, or if they had them, I didn't see them. If they do it, and if it is done properly, indeed that is some heavy stuff ;).

About adsense I don't want to talk, as I want to start my own search/PPC engine similar with google when I will get an investment for that. I do have an idea of the complexity of the problem - which is a huge step forward if you ask me...

Egomancer

Most don't have it, but I can tell you, when it works it's magic.

The biggest problem with features like that is that they have to work with a changing market.

So, for example, you train the learning algorithm with data from the past 10 years excluding the very last year, then test it on the data of the very last year to see if it works. If it works, you can include data from the past year, and implement it. The more the market has changed, though, the less effective it typically is.

That problem isn't too big - the real problem comes up when changes in the market speed up. The software has to learn to interpret both changes in the market, as well as the speed of those changes.
In a market that's static or changing slowly, you typically want it to use as much data as possible. In a rapidly changing market, it might be better to use only the data of the past few months, rather than the past few decades.

The challenge is to have the software learn about the data, as well as about the metadata, and make predictions based on the combination of both.

It's seriously interesting stuff, once you get into it.

I general it's a tough thing to contract when not an 'in house' situation...that being said I do know of a few good, reliable ones but they are pricey and worth it.

A reliable programmer isn't cheap but I can promise you they are out there :)

I like to think of myself as one of them.

However I don't have time to take in any new projects..
Has one that takes all my time atm.

Oh man.. don't get me started on programmers.

Some of you bitching about programmers need to look at yourselves too. Lets face it this industry is not about forking over money to programmers and designers. Everyone wants shit cheap, with that you get shitty and shotty work. Maybe if more people wanted to pay what most good programmers would get $30-80 an hour, then you wouldn't have so many problems finding programmers.

I have been a programmer in this business for years and have done many projects and wrote content management systems etc. Fighting for a nickle and working twice as hard as you should for nothing isn't fun. Those of us who are good programmers and have a good skillset are gainfully employed by companies who recognize our worth.

Let me also add that programmers in this industry deal with scope and feature creep like you wouldn't believe. Webmasters tend to think "This guy developed this site for me 3 years ago, i deserve free support now." Sorry but thats not the way it works. If you want good support you have to pay. Just because you thought of the feature 3 years down the road doesn't mean the programmer should add it for your free of charge. I speak from experience, when I was doing freelance I experienced all this stuff.

This thread gives me a bunch of horrid images of old, grumpy computer science nerds who think their shit doesn't stink. No wonder people think programmers' are hard to work with. This thread's pretty much a mirror of those trying to find a solid graphic artist -- those fuckers are flaky too, not because their old, grumpy computer science nerds, but because their grumpy because they're set on their ways as well.

Very true. Clients often don't seem to realize that with a good programmer, they aren't just paying for the hours you spend coding for them, but also for the library of code you've built up over the years, most often in your spare time.

I once actually had a client refusing to pay the amount we had agreed on because I finished the script too quickly. It was ridiculous - he needed the script as quickly as possible, and I delivered it in a day, way below the price other programmers had offered.

But, for some reason, he thought no programmer should get over $300 an hour - ignoring the fact that all the code came from my own code library, and had taken hundreds if not thousands of hours to develop.

Fucker never changed his passwords though, so he found himself with a full refund and no script... two months later, I had the pleasure of telling him to fuck off when he practically begged if he could buy the script at the original price :1orglaugh

Has nothing to do with being set in your ways. It has everything to do with being paid what you are worth. As a webmaster (if you are one) you want top dollar from affiliate programs because your traffic is worth it. You will pay lawyers top dollar to secure your assets and cover yourself in case of 2257. So why in gods name would you not pay a programmer top dollar to develop applications that ultimately will save you hours of time and even more in employees if you had to do things by hand.

I concur with what you're saying. I was trying to approach it more from, "I know [insert acronyms] so I'm god compared to others who know [other acronyms]" quotes in this thread. That's all.

not true, reliable programmers are too busy to take more jobs....the fact should
be:

Reliable programmers with time to do your job are a myth.

:2 cents:

I've had fantastic luck with rentacoder, but it takes some patience picking a programmer. Once you find a good one, stick with them.

As for hiring, it is a pain to find exactly what you need, from someone who happens to be available at the exact time you're looking, of course. But there's always someone right for every job, you just need to accept that if you're not paying top dollar, you may experience some turbulence.