D, how many of those uninsurable are only uninsurable now. How many paid for years but aren't covered because they changed jobs or retired. When most workers retire their health benefits stop. On your own trying to find single person coverage is tough. To get NO credit for the years/decades you have paid is the real crux of the problem for many.

A problem never discussed.

Funny....we just watch sicko last night as well. How depressing.
Here's what i'd like to know about from all the people NOT in the USA....

WHAT IS MICHAEL MOORE NOT INCLUDING IN HIS MOVIE??

Are we getting a fair look at how it is outside of the usa? There has to be something that he's not saying or including....

I mean, it can't be that good outside the usa,..........can it??

Yes you are getting a fair look.

I'm with you on this one; I just watched Sicko a few days ago, and was also disgusted by it. It wasn't even new information to me, but it certainly made it tangiable seeing the way that some people were treated.
This country and more specifically it's governement, are in dire need of drastic change. Considering our reputation on the world stage, and the value of our dollar, I don't know how any politician could have the balls to tell us how great our country is doing.
I think that if our founding fathers saw the way this country is right now, they would bitch slap GWB.

for me personally, this is where i am conflicted. like a guy on a street corner asking for money. is it a scam? will he buy booze? is he insane? is he off his medication? does he just make 200.00 a day doing this, so he has no need for a job? will i give him 20.00 to make myself feel better so i can pat myself on the back and say "you know, i'm a good person" knowing in the back of my mind that i just bought him cheap booze?

this was a country that was founded on the idea of the individual and self reliance. as i guess is enevitable, it devolved into a country of people looking where to place blame, where to get a handout etc etc etc.

for me personally, i would like to see the line drawn somewhere in the middle. i don't want to pay for the guy who can always have new 200.00 designer jeans every week and loves clubbing but "can't afford health care" - but i wouldn't mind paying for those who truly need it and can't afford it.

i hate the idea of writing a blank check to be abused... as people tend to do.

i hate sending a message that says "hey, here's one more important responsibility in life that you do not need to be accountable for in any way, shape or form"

here's an idea.

why not break a worldwide stereotype of the average American and invest in a plane ticket and get outside and see how the rest of the world lives so you also have an informed view on how the world works outside of SisterRape, Kansas


:2 cents:

THe biggest problem never discussed about "health care" is that we wouldnt need any part of the system (insurance, coverage etc) if the lawyers had stayed out of the medical field to begin with

When I was growing up (yeah Im an old fart) we didnt have or need health insurance - it DIDNT even exist in the US. The whole reason it was even started is because someone decided to be a fucking idiot and go sue their doctor - they couldnt take the fact that some times humans screw up and make mistakes - and a court allowed that person to be awarded money - the most fucked up thing that has happened in the last 60 years.

This led to doctors being required to carry liability and malpractice insurance - leading to costs skyrocketing - leading to the insurance companies stepping in with health insurance and health groups

When I was growing up you could go to the doctor or the hospital and unless you were below poverty levels (which was already covered in a small form by the US) - you could afford just about anything - including heart surgery etc.

I was one of those that is uninsurable - although Im figuring out the system enough now to get around it - and had two heart attacks - now I didnt come her when they happened other than to try to sell some stuff to cover the bills that added up to over $100k - but more importantly - I found out that if you dont have insurance - every hospital and doctor out there has a contingency that reduces your cost by 90%. This shows how much of a paperwork and office cost has been added into the real cost of medical care in the US.


THE ANSWER - simply stop allowing people to SUE - for anything - this countires society has gotten to the point where the lawyers are running everything for us and if we dont like how life treats us - well then sue someone - that is what is SICK

Tax rates vary from province to province and state to state. Some states of tax, some don't. Some it's higher, some lower. You get the point. Here's an illustration of the tax differences between Washington State and British Columbia

For our examples we will use two people, both full time employees of a company, both making $100,000 per year. One in Washington State and one in British Columbia. For simplicity, remove currency calculations and say they dollars are at par. We will use 2007 tax tables.

Canadian Tax Table: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individ...axrates-e.html
British Columbia $100,000 Salary:
Federal Income Tax:

-15.5% on the first $37,178 = $5762.59
-22% on the next $37,179 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $37,178 and $74,357), = $8170.58
-26% on the next $46,530 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $74,357 and $120,887), = $6667.18
TOTAL FEDERAL INCOME TAX = $20,635

Provincial Income Tax:
5.7% on the first $34,397 of taxable income = $1960.63
8.65% on the next $34,397 = $2975.34
11.1% on the next $10,190, = $1131.09
13% on the next $16,925, = $2200.25
14.7% on the amount over $95,909 = $601.378
TOTAL PROVINCIAL INCOME TAX = $8868.69

$20,635 + $8868.69 = $29,503 total income tax.

A Person making $100,000 a year in BC will pay a blended tax rate of roughly 29.5% before personal deductions.

United States Tax Table: http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article...164272,00.html
Washington State $100,000 Salary:
Federal Income Tax:
If taxable income is over $77,100 but not over $160,850: $15,698.75 plus 28% of the amount over 77,100 = $22,110.75

NO STATE TAX IN WASHINGTON

A Person making $100,000 a year in Washington State will pay a blended tax rate of roughly 22.1% before personal deductions.

So the tax rate is not that much higher in Canada.

Healthcare? Well, if you're in a job making $100K a year, you're most likely a professional. You'll probably have health care insurance provided by your employer. Lack of universal health care is more of a problem for retail workers and the unskilled. Personally, I'd take the American system. Why? Because I can afford to pay, so I want the best health care available to me immediately and I just don't care about those who can't afford to pay.

Here is how a responsible tax paying person runs into what could be financially devastating health issues in the US.

You work for your entire life under a companies health plan. The company paid all or part of your costs, if partial then the difference came out of your check. The company has insurance as an individual you never did, you were under their plan. Now you retire, by law you can continue your insurance coverage for 18 months by paying your former employer each month.

Then that's it. You are now on your own in the American insurance wasteland.

There is no way to continue your insurance on your own. You are forced out. You have to start from square one. Good luck.

this is my point as well. the conversation about "costs" in the US, should't happen without taking into account the very reasons costs continually soar... and why insurance costs what it does. malpractice insurance is even expensive to the point that doctors are walking away from their own profession in greater and greater numbers because they can't insure themselves and don't want the excessive liability of trrying to actually help people.

Here are my worries personally about being here in the usa.

1 - I can pay 500-1000 a month for health insurance my whole life, on time, never missing a payment and if something happens that lands me (or my faimly) in the hospital, blue cross can still deny needed treatment. Now that alone is just fucking scary.

2 - My worry about living in the usa is NOT when things are good and money is coming in, it's when shit hits the fan. I have kids to think about it. What happens if i lose everything and my childs needs care? What happens if I can't pay our insurance? You think the insurance companies are going to say "hey man, you've been a good client for 20 years, go get your treatment fr your child".....hell no. My family is fucked. So living here in the USA is fine when you have money..when you don't, then you're stuck on some shit program if that.

3 - About the taxes complaint....raise them, I don't give a fuck. Having health care for my family *IF* we are ever in a time of need is MORE important to me, then paying out extra taxes when things were good. Again, i don't worry when things are good...i worry when things AREN'T good.

Also realize the US tax payer currently pays more than a Canadian tax payer per capita for health care already. The US pays more yet covers far less people because of the bloated system based on PROFIT. It's in everyone's best interest to make you sick, and then not treat a large % to keep revenues high. Sure you can say doctors fees are high because they need higher cost of malpractice insurance. But its a vicious circle where they all pat themselves on the backs and work together to raise profits. As long as you got HMO's dictating things, costs will continue to skyrocket and leave the have not's behind. And that is a large portion of the country.

Also factor in that a lot of Americans with insurance have massive deductible's and co-pay's that mean they may get 80% of their $100k bill taken care of, but they still have $20k they owe themselves after a $5k deductable etc etc. And most of the affordable plans are this way. Also most have a max of $250k or something like that for payout. So if you get Cancer your fucked.

So many flaws in the way its done in the US, especially when each US tax payer already pays double that in $ per person toward health care then that of a Canadian.

It's why I stopped donating to such causes. After seeing 3 or 4 later outted for scamming well, I lost my taste for it. It's different if I know the person and they are in trouble and legitimately need help, after all I'm not completely heartless.

Niether am I stupid.


In fact, I'll share this with you... As a Canadian I do enjoy all that our universal health care system has to offer (including all it's flaws).... but as a self-employed "entrepreneur" of sorts who works from home and has no company-funded benefits package, I DO have extra coverage. It's called "critical illness insurance", I pay about $60 per month for it, and in the event that I develop some debilitating disease or serious trauma where I have to head south of the border for treatment, it covers me up to a certain amount. That amount is quite substantial (as would be the cost I'm sure).

It also pays my mortgage in such an event, and all my other costs of living while I'm recovering.

I know full well that just relying on what we have "for free" isn't always enough. And really, when is the cost too high for peace of mind?

damian2001

go get the papers ready buddy.

lol.

when you can easily afford it for yourself because you are a hardworker, manage money well and plan for failure... but are expected to pay for everyone else who isn't, doesn't and won't?

OK

You get the bed ready while I get the forms filled in...

You know its not legal until its consumated? :winkwink:

LOL

roflllllllllllllllllllllllllll

CD alot of whats quoted is what the pundits say.Higher taxes, bad care and its all bullshit. The sheep listen to these republican senators talk about socialized medicine and what they dont realize is the senator already has it. They dont pay a dime for healthcare. Also as far as the great US care, my father has stage 4 lung cancer. The cancer was in his brain,its still on the outside of his lungs and lymph nodes. The doctor comes in and says its doesnt look good this is moving very fast and in the next breath he says the specialist cant see you for at least two weeks. The others he needs cant see him for at least 3 months.
My mom who works for a high powered doctor had to pull all kinds of favors to get my father taken care of immediately. If he beats this he will owe his life to her literally because without connections they just would of been starting treatment.
I wont get into the actual treatment using a 30yr chemo drug on him ,that was like rat poison and only after that failed could they use the newer stuff because thats what the insurance company wanted.

But then there's the guys like Onlymovies (post #51). His concerns look pretty legitimate to me, and are the same or similar aired by a lot of other Americans.

All things considered, the peace of mind that our system in Canada affords us is priceless, in my view anyway. And I've been on both sides of the fence here, having been a patient numerous times over the years but I've also worked in the health care system, for nearly 15 years.

The spinal surgery I had to have when I was 16 would have cost a boatload of money in the US, even back then. Here, the bill to my parents was $0.00.

I will pay the airfare for anyone who promises never to return.:thumbsup

can't seem to quote.. :(

Tony I hope your dad pulls through.

Good post btw.

Pleasure Pays
when you can easily afford it for yourself because you are a hardworker, manage money well and plan for failure... but are expected to pay for everyone else who isn't, doesn't and won't?

If you got hit with a really bad illness or your kids, you have no idea of what kind of numbers could happen. You could go thru hundreds of thousands of dollars very quickly.

Thanks CD the old guy is tough he is a fighter.

Don't believe everything Michael Moore says. He's been proven to be a flat out liar.

Who has proven Moore to be a liar right wing wackos? If he was lying he would be sued to high heaven that hasnt happened.Open your mind.
The right spew hate,lies and misconceptions 40 hours a week easy and mike does a movie once in a while and he is the problem stop lol.

One thing I like about both our countries is that we are all afforded the freedom to air complaints or otherwise BITCH about our respective health care systems, legal systems, football refs, etc etc.

God bless freedom.


I don't see anything wrong with people identifying flaws in a country's inner workings, especially if it's in the hope of improving said country.

Flying insults or posting bold-faced misinformation is quite another matter though.

amazing what passes for inteligence on this board.

Yes, follow michael moore. HE knows the real truth! hahahaha

you're right. i have no idea. i live in a giant terrarium with 4 tarantulas with nothing for entertainment except chasing the occasional fly and really have no clue how the world works.

thanks for explaining this to me. in 37 years, i have never been to a hospital, never known anyone who has and frankly, i have no idea what they even do there.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

I think that's at the heart of the problem. No American, imho... old, young, poor, rich, should ever be "uninsurable." And, as in your case, after years of paying into the system, and reaping no tangible benefit - and then to be labeled as "uninsurable" _only_because you're reaching a certain age after a healthy and paid-up life... well, that only compounds the insult, I'm sure... and I can certainly empathize with your situation.

Hopefully, we're due for a change in the near future in this regard. I know I'm doing whatever I can to make that happen, and I can only hope that enough of my countrymen are doing the same.

K, so who's got the video cam? :thumbsup

Been there done that plenty of times. Last time in my early 20's in Denmark. And sorry to admit that i was i wasn't really focused on their system of things :love2suck ....
When i asked "is it really that good outside the usa?" i was referring to health care. I should have made that clear.

Don't believe everything ANYONE say's. There is no single source of information that is flawless when it comes to a topic as broad as this.

HOWEVER; don't disbelieve everything that someone say's because they've been wrong in the past.

In other words, don't be a lemming; think for yourself.

this is going to cause an a flame war i know it, but i have to say this. Yes the u.S. is fucked up in health care, and there are other countries with better health care systems. But if it wasn't for the for-profit system in the U.S. most of the major breakthrus in medical treatment (most notably the high tech stuff) would have never happened. As fucked up the U.S. system is, it creates competition and we all know that competition is the best fuel for innovation. Innovation in health care usually means better health care (at higher costs though). So everyone in those foreign countries saying 'i wont go to the u.s. blah blah blah' without the u.s. your doctors might still be using high radiation poor imaging x ray machines.

Not a flame - but that line of reasoning is total BS for the "technology breakthrus" - in most cases those come from either government funded projects (grants to research hospitals) or are actually discovered/invented overseas and then patented by US companies - it has nothing whatsoever to do with higher costs of medical care funding any of this - 90% of what you pay for medical these days goes to funding the beauracracy of paperwork, paying for administators of PPOs etc, and insurance and pharmaceutical company profits. The other 10% goes to the actual doctors and nurses

why do you think that is? because its the U.S. Companies that have the money to do that, or fund research, or promise the money will be there when the technology is made, plus your forgetting another thing entirely, why do u.s. companies fund projects in other countries? because its easier to get thru their 'FDA' type policing then it is in the U.S.

I need to see the movie but we are all independent workers or most of us. In the US you need to go out and get your own insurance. I happen to live in a state where it is cheap and plentiful (MN) and covers if you are in the uninsurable category. I am not but was close. I have a 5k deductible but so what. My insurance is just that - Insurance! I pay $133.00/month and it covered about 80k of back surgery a few years ago. When I get sick I pay for it but if it is major I am covered.

A1R3K, do not even think about Brasil if this type of thing bothers you. EVERYONE with money buys their own health care plan(about $159US/month for me). Sure it is free here otherwise but feel free to die with inadequate care as Brasil rates near the bottom in quality.

Actually brazil is in the middle for life expectancy, they are 92 but the richest country in the world the good ole US is 38 which is pathetic.

Michael Moore's point is to make everyone hate the US. I think he ate Bin Laden :)