That's almost funny. You really have no idea what a very large chunk of paysites have inside do you? I'm sure they'd love to give access to the very expenisve plugins that charge on a sliding scale for the amount of members you have, or access to the very high bandwidth movies etc to portentially 100 of 1000's of people who don't pay you to look at it.

What a daft idea :1orglaugh

Whahahahaha.. dont push it too far..

He wrote:

"Just a thought to those that can't afford the $750 and costs of becoming an LLC. "

So he's refering to smaller people: they dont have those
'very expensive plugins' and other goodies.

However.. he's still wrong, i dont see why this problem doesnt effect AVS: i think it can turn out even worse for them

a++++++++

I do agree with Mitch in that only those who closely monitor their own merchant accounts and know how to deal with excption files should apply for their own acccounts. However for a new site owners I do reommened 3rd party first. Third party processors are not going away,if anything their importance in payment processing especialy in the high risk space will increase..

As far as conversion of paysites to AVS models I see no reason for this or even why this has become as issue, I have to agree with mrthumbs, and ask where did this idea come from, I sure hope it did not arise fro the $750 registration fee...

Clay

Companies like Netbilling are sitting pretty now. You get your own merchant account but they are set up with the software/hardware to do the job and help keep your merchant account 'safe' by providing the scrub.

I think most of the third party processors will do the same thing for you if you do have your own merchant account.

So for anybody who can qualify to get their own merchant account it's the best of both worlds, use a billing company's experience and software keeping chargebacks as low as possible but use your own merchant account.

You better keep a clean business though cuz you'll lose the merchant account even with good scrubbing in place and from what i'm reading once you've fucked up the merchant account you are fucked up from even returning to third party processing.

If they haven't got those goodies then they are not a 'medium quality or high quality paysite' . If you're gonna split hairs at least read and digest his post first. I've yet to see any paysite worth the fee (that's if you believe some are) that doesn't have movies and/or plugins. I wouldn't class any paysite without them as medium or high quality.

Mind you if you can't afford $750 WTF are you doing trying to run paysites *shrug*

You have a point though about AVS's. I'm wondering what effect if any it will have as it's a whole different ball park and in theory needn't affect them at all as they're more or less a glorified link list that provides a secure(ish) gateway service. The pass you buy is a pass to that AVS system not to any individual site you may join. May affect some of the free pass systems though, if as it seems this is also gonna hit free trials hard or even stop them altogether.

I agree but its not as easy as people think.
also I think Clay should list all the tools they have to increase your bottom line Just having scrubbing in place to keep charbacks and cancels down is not enough to profit because they will cancel eventually within a couple months.

They have an incredable systems I think this is something everyone should take into consideration
http://www.epochsystems.com/premiumfeatures/
It will increase your bottom line about 40% if you use all there premium features.

Look at all your options they have done most of the work for you.

PK,

I am ignorant and don't know what I am doing,
amazing how these products make you 40% (40 percent) more money than other processors, I guess we just we just got lucky in creating these products.

Clay
EPOCH

WOW thats a impressive list of add-ons! :thumbsup

Clay: Can I contact you via email?

Clay just keep staying on top of the game. People will eventually realize whats up.

everyone is over looking the full scope of using a 3rd party.

Props to you for being up this late.


~Roger V

I cannot believe you guys aren't ahead of the curve.....

I've seen a lot of posts like this tonight, even ones going so far that the fee should be $5k rather than $750 and adult domains should be $5k as well. All revolving around the theme that if you can't pay this fee, you shouldn't be in business.

Step outside of your niche for a moment and take a look around at what else is out there.
One thing immediately comes to mind - amateur single-girl sites. Run not for the purpose of becoming the next Aria Giovanni, but for the simple purpose of paying a college tuition or allowing a mom to stay home with her kids by flashing her boobs on a cam at night.

These ladies run small sites with tight budgets. They've got loyal members that they bend over backwards for. They answer their own emails, they interact with their members, they take requests and fulfill them.

The college girls just handed out a mountain of $$ in tuition, lab fees, and books.
The at-home moms just handed out a mountain of $$ in house payment, car payment, insurance, utilities, groceries, and internet fees.

Just because they can't work up the $750 fee, they shouldn't be running a paysite? I disagree.

Now couple that with the multiple-processor option to increase the chances of your potential member getting his card accepted. Surfer gets declined at processor one, you forward him to processor two on the decline page.
That's a $750 fee for *each* processor. Got two processors? That's $1500 you've got to come up with. Got three processors? That's $2250 you've got to come up with to keep your little paysite.

Some people who genuinely *should* be running paysites - and are doing a damn good job of it with high retention - won't be able to afford these fees.

But that does *not* mean they shouldn't be running paysites.

you act like you're actually running some type of business that matters to the real world.... WAKE UP

If you have your own merchant account, then you can also use many of the 3rd party processors backends... ex. Epoch also do processing for merchant accounts - you pay to use their system... just the same as with netbilling.

However getting your own merchant account and running it is different than using 3rd party... it might give you more control, but if you are thinking about doing volume processing, then it take some thinking... ex. using multiple bank accounts in different banks doing daily transfer to secure your cashflow, so you do not wake up one morning without money becuase your account is frozen (too many chargebacks etc.).

Do not put all egs in one basket - even if its your own basket. If you can, then use a matrix of different processors AND different payment options!

Puremeds, you're saying that the sex business is irrelevant?

If this business doesn't "matter", why does your company spend so much time and money promoting itself on sex sites?

Why do you purposely look for adult affiliates to market your products on their adult sites?

Why are you spending time posting on adult boards if adult sites are irrelevant and you're so happy you've gotten out of porn?

i think he was refering to YOUR business :1orglaugh

I promote adult sites and do so VERY WELL. I have nothing against the adult business, and I plan to participate in it further, but what I do have a problem with is people pretending that high-risk is an important component to the credit card business.

If that were the case it would be funny (and might even be correct! ;) ), but he's posting on all of the threads (and even started a new one) telling people to 'wake up'.

Then say that! :)
I agree, we're small fish to the credit card companies. But this affects our businesses (both adult and mainstream) and there are decisions to be made - so even if we're nothing to Visa, Visa and the ability to accept it is something to us. We can't just ignore this and keep going. We've got less than 30 days to have paperwork registered - nearly impossible for overseas folks - and less than 45 days to have fees paid. Or find an alternative and get everything switched to it, including current members/clients and rebills.
It's an important topic that bears discussion - ignoring it won't make it go away (unfortunately).

Ah, fuck it. I'll just pay the $750.00 and get it over with. I suppose in the long run it's not that big of a deal. Sure, the fee sucks, but if it will keep my site(s) running then I'm all for it.

The only thing that confuses me is the "company" part. I live in the U.S., and am basically a kid running a few sites out of his apartment. I don't have an official "company". Does that matter? I'm pretty sure that because I live in the U.S. I can just give them my social security number and be all set.

For a select few of you, getting your own merchant account is an option. If you do, netbilling is a fantastic company to work with.

However...

Read the VISA/MC rules about chargeback ratios and FINES. What are you going to do when you exceed the ratios and are fined 10k, 25k, 50k? You are legally obligated to pay those fines. Wait, did I say pay them? I think they just TAKE them. Like Chris Rock says about taxes...you dont PAY taxes, they TAKE taxes. Taxes is the ultimate jack.

Of course the other problem is that 99% of you won't even qualify for your own merchant account. Many of you couldn't by a cheeseburger at McDonalds on credit. They don't just hand out merchant accounts to anyone that want's one.

JMM, If I read things correctly the same will apply to doing biz through a 3rd party processor. Seems to me there's less difference now than before between using a 3rd party and your own merch. acct. Still some but less than there was. BOTH will be have to stay inline on chargeback ratios or face fees or cancellation.

farbie

Take this into consideration:

The time has come for you to make some decisions; they will be easy for some, harder for others.

It comes down to the amount of risk that you want to take with your business. With the higher scrutiny from VISA, what are you going to do? If you feel comfortable managing that risk on your own, then you need to make the decision to do it. Consider this, with the higher scrutiny that will be soon involved and the risks of getting on the TMF (terminated merchant file), and the consequences of those risks (never being able to process Visa transactions through that domain name, business name or by the operators of that business), would you rather have the backing of companies that have able to successfully manage their merchant accounts for years, or start from scratch?

Am I saying that you should not get your own merchant account and use it? Of course not. In fact, CCBill has had the option to set up your own merchant account and use our value-added services, for years. Most of our customers prefer to have us manage ALL processing facets of their business. They realize that, new rules or not, Visa is going to be more compassionate with a business that is processing through a large processor, following their policies, rather than one that is trying to manage and run adult transactions on their own, through their own merchant account. It is our specialty, and as many people are already aware, it is harder than it seems. And if you are considering going this route and planning on managing an account on your own, will the costs be less for you than a large processor with years of trial/error experience and significant economies of scale behind it?

Advantages to third party processing?

Fraud scrubbing. Having a competent fraud scrubbing system requires a huge infrastructure, it is not a matter of ?no, this guy sounds ok, ill let him in?. You need a database that checks against millions of accounts that had charged back in the past, plus looking at the user on many different levels. Where is he/she coming from? Was the card issued in the same location? What is the language on his browser? Has he signed up for 20 other sites that same day? plus 60 other similar variables.
And when the decision to accept or decline a transaction rests solely in your hands, how might you be swayed? If it is $30 that is either in your pocket or not, are you going to make the decision, that ?Hey, its not worth the risk? or will your emotions sway you to make decisions that might adversely affect your merchant account, and business, 4 months down the road.

Customer Service- The major billing companies have large call centers, dedicated to evaluations on what is your best interest, long term. Should a refund be issued? If we don?t refund this customer, will he hang up and call the bank? Etc

This in addition to having numerous reports at your disposal, password management, a referral program which sends checks out weekly, the backing of a company with some influence who are able to schedule meetings with key decision makers, etc.


CCBill, Ibill and Epoch had to make some difficult decisions recently, mainly ?What are the risks associated with not following the rules that VISA is setting forth and what do we have to lose by not following those rules?? The decision was made that we want to stay in business for the long-term, so we do whatever we can to do so. Are we telling you what you want to hear? No, we are telling you what has to be done, to keep your business running parallel with Visa, long term.

With a third party processor, incentives are aligned. We do what is your best interest, long term. The more that you make, the more we make.

Interesting here, I don't see the well established, older programs here bitching about this at all. I don't see the people that I know run their own traffic into their own sites and making money here bitching.

I see people who have been around for years making suggestions as to how you might find options for your business if you are new, suggestions that make alot of sense.

Ah well, a shakeup isn't a bad thing.

Ever thought of this? If your PAYSITE gets a HUGE AMOUNT OF CHARGEBACK anyways, even if you are with CCBill or Epoch or any of the other third party companies, and you are BLACKLISTED and asked to leave their umbrella, as Epoch would like you to think and cannot be afforded the FUTURE OPPORTUNITY to register within the umbrella of an IPSP, other IPSP cannot touch you also?

So what they are REALLY SAYING is this, if you will look between the lines -

If you leave to do your OWN CREDIT CARD PROCESSING and you fuck up and get tonnes of chargebacks, and Visa blacklists you, well you cannot come back to us. But BY THE SAME TOKEN, if lets say the IPSP fucks up on their fraud detection; and your paysite is BLACKLISTED, you still cannot go to anyone else. Jesus H. Christ.

If that was the case, I rather if I were a small time paysite owner take my chances and do fraud screening myself or hire an outside help then rely on CCBill and the rest.

But either way, I rather I be right and CCBill and Epoch be wrong because that way at least they get business. So Ron C, and Epoch pray I am right and YOU ARE WRONG and have overlooked the obvious. Because then your business can go on; otherwise....

-Nato

durp .. did you forget that visa requires you to have $2M chillin in an account in order to open up an agregator (reshare program) account? does that count as setup or???

Um, no, that is not what they are saying. If YOU as a merchant account owner, are irresponsible and unable to run a business, then YOU have no business taking credit cards, and you cannot run and hide behind third party processing.

If a third party processor goes under, THEY are the ones who are ineligible for merchant accounts and YOU would be able to take YOUR business elsewhere, since YOU were not the culprit.

I wasn't saying that the THIRD PARTY PROCESSOR goes under Kimmy. I was saying IF lets say CCBill fucks up and gives more then 4% chargebacks for a continous 6 months. What happens then? You tell me. Would under the new regulations, would VISA USA not black list me? Given the above that you have stated, I will VERY VERY MUCH like to say yes, they would.

So because of CCBill's Fraud Detection or Fraud Scrubbing which is propiertary to YOUR COMPANY, if I were a Pseudo Merchant, would I not suffer being black listed? In a nutshell, I WOULD BE RISKING MY OWN CREDIT HISTORY in your COMPANY'S HANDS.

Think about that.

-Nato

Just don't forget to inform people how DIFFICULT it is to keep your own chargeback rate below 1%. If you are consistently going over, say bye bye to ever accepting a credit card online again via your own merchant account. Also, the selection of solid banks to get an adult merchant account is minimal.

Merchant accounts can be great, but the best thing about not having one is not assuming the risk of losing one. If you get a merchant account and lose it, you'll never ever get another one again in the future.

Mitch, teenerotica.com used to process with Netbilling via their own merchant account. Now they are processing with IBILL? Why is this? I obviously can't say for sure because I don't know, but my guess is they had too hard of a time keeping their chargeback rate down.

My advice to anybody who takes the merchant account route, keep your relationship with a 3rd party processor very close & healthy because you're very likely gonna need them again one day.

CCBill, Epoch and the SUPPOSEDLY BIG 3, are DO NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT HOLD THE HOLY GRAIL to FRAUD SCRUBBING, NO ONE DOES.

Yes, fraud scrubbing is hard, but it is NOT impossible to do what CCBill does or even Epoch, geez. It takes time and a lot of cost and experience but it can be learned. If it is that hard for you, then JUST OUTSOURCE. You need good fraud scrubbers then look at EFalcon or Cybersource or Anacom or whatever. Heck, I can show you how to do it even.

-Nato

Use globill and you dont have to pay anything apart from the usual 15%