I wish this thread was a little more serious, there's some good info in it!

Fletch, isn't that just vitamin B, not B12? There's plenty of sources of B vitamins, but not specifically B12.

I'm trying to learn everything I can about this but basically so far am under the impression that B12 can take many years to drain from your system so you can be a vegan for many years before running out of B12. I've recently had to have a few injections but still no idea why i'm losing the B12 although I have cut my red meat intake to about 2 to 3 small serves a week - which is what is recommended anyway.

Basically all the information out there seems to be bullshit and I don't think anyone really knows what they are talking about yet, but there's an awful lot of people giving bad advice!

Something that did make sense to me was B12 in dirt - ie, eating vege's with the skins still on and planting vitamins in the dirt around them kinda concept. I'm sticking with my home grown sprouts for now until I learn more!

Can I ask why you are vegetarian Fletch?

here is what we drink, the Very Vanilla Silk Soy Milk.

pasted from their popup on their site:

Very Vanilla, Half-Gallon
Nutrition Facts
Serving Size 1 cup (240 mL)
Servings per container 8
Amount per Serving
Calories 130
Calories from Fat 35
% Daily Value*
Total Fat 4g 6%
Saturated Fat 0.5g 3%
Trans Fat 0g
Polyunsaturated Fat 2.5g
Monounsaturated Fat 1g
Cholesterol 0mg 0%
Sodium 140mg 6%
Potassium 300mg 8%
Total Carbohydrates 19g 6%
Dietary Fiber 1g 4%
Sugars 16g
Protein 6g
Vitamin A 20%
Vitamin C 35%
Calcium 35%
Iron 6%
Vitamin D 30%
Vitamin E 20%
Vitamin K 15%
Riboflavin 30%
Vitamin B6 30%
Folate 6%
Vitamin B12 50%
Phosphorus 10%
Magnesium 10%
Zinc 10%
Selenium 8%
* Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000-calorie diet. Your daily values may be higher or lower depending on your calorie needs:
Calories: 2,000 2,500
Total Fat less than 65g 80g
Saturated Fat less than 20g 25g
Cholesterol less than 300mg 300mg
Sodium less than 2,400mg 2,400mg
Potassium less than 3,500mg 3,500mg
Total Carbohydrates 300g 375g
Dietary Fiber 25g 30g

INGREDIENTS: : ORGANIC SOYMILK (FILTERED WATER, WHOLE ORGANIC SOYBEANS), ORGANIC EVAPORATED CANE JUICE, NATURAL VANILLA FLAVOR, SEA SALT, CARRAGEENAN, VITAMINS & MINERALS: CALCIUM CARBONATE, SODIUM ASCORBATE (VITAMIN C), TRICALCIUM PHOSPHATE, ALPHA TOCOPHEROL (VITAMIN E), ZINC GLUCONATE, VITAMIN A PALMITATE, VITMAIN D2, VITAMIN B6, RIBOFLAVIN (VITAMIN B2), VITAMIN B12.

So technically, 2 servings would be 100% of your B12, or so one would conclude from that information. So far so good.

based on a 2,000 calorie diet. oops. :upsidedow

Cherry, thanks heaps for that.
I just got the carton out of my fridge (wierd that this thread is here the first week I ever bought vanilla soy milk) and it says very similar on the side - 1.0 mg of B12 (50% rdi). My GP and the most recent 'digestive specialist' I saw insist there is no B12 in soy products, only in red meat, despite the extensive material that says otherwise.
I wish I had a lab in my house and knew how to test stuff myself!

Thanks for the info, you made my day!
I love this vanilla milk - it makes a great smoothie and with mango's being in season here I pulped up 20 and froze them. I throw a block in the blender with the vanilla milk and it makes a great smoothie.

Sorry serge, I'll think of something funny about swallowing jizz later ;p

Thanks again cherry!

you are welcome. :)

yeah the vanilla is great with cereal too. Mango sounds tasty.

I guess one day we'll figure this b12 thing out. haha

and before I am off to bed, this book is really really great in explaining a lot about vegetarianism. "You Don't Need Meat." I highly recommend it, excellent reading.

Lots of dangers with Soy products as well:

* High levels of phytic acid in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow cooking. High phytate diets have caused growth problems in children.
* Trypsin inhibitors in soy interfere with protein digestion and may cause pancreatic disorders. In test animals soy containing trypsin inhibitors caused stunted growth.
* Soy phytoestrogens disrupt endocrine function and have the potential to cause infertility and to promote breast cancer in adult women.
* Soy phytoestrogens are potent antithyroid agents that cause hypothyroidism and may cause thyroid cancer. In infants, consumption of soy formula has been linked to autoimmune thyroid disease.
* Vitamin B12 analogs in soy are not absorbed and actually increase the body's requirement for B12.
* Soy foods increase the body's requirement for vitamin D.
* Fragile proteins are denatured during high temperature processing to make soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein.
* Processing of soy protein results in the formation of toxic lysinoalanine and highly carcinogenic nitrosamines.
* Free glutamic acid or MSG, a potent neurotoxin, is formed during soy food processing and additional amounts are added to many soy foods.
* Soy foods contain high levels of aluminum which is toxic to the nervous system and the kidneys.

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

Sorry I took so long to reply, if my "online" icon indicated I was on, it was because i left the window open while i was AFK.

I can't address all the Vitamin B stuff, I don't claim to know all about the topic.

As far as why I am veg now:

All my life I was grossed out by cow milk (mucos), eating chicken eggs, eating steak - it always grossed me out. I come from a long line of Southern Hunters and butchers, i grew up skinning deers, eating them - killing everything, and eating it.

Just last year before my grandfather died, I had the pleasure of grinding up 200 lbs of deer and making old fashioned cajun deer sausage one last time before he passed, that was about the end of it for me. I had already given up red meat, but had finally been grossed out enough to say "isnt there something else i can put on my plate and eat?"

So, as Cherry mentioned I ordered the book (or she did) YOU DONT NEED MEAT, and the author and I share a very similar story.

All my life growing up, my mom would cook big bloody steaks, with sausage on the side etc... and i would literally just sit back and eat the entire head of Iceberg lettuce, she would joke and ask me "are you a rabbit, don't you want to eat your steak. and drink your milk?"

So, at age 30 I decided enough was enough, as an adult now, i buy what I eat, and I chose what I put in my body, so... now I eat things that don't bleed. And with the clone cow milk and meat coming soon to a grocery to you (FDA already approved clone milk, and all products from cloned animals) - i really got out in time.

I quit red meat long before I gave up chicken and turkey, fish etc...

but like everything else a human can quit, once you make the decision, and once you feel and see the results, it becomes a lot easier to stick with it.

When I was eating like shit, and destroying myself with alcohol and drugs daily, I wasnt getting vitamin B either! I was barely eating! Whats worst, not eating and drinking beer all day, or being eg and have people ask me "where you get your protein from?"

This is what makes me laugh at folks with this argument,.. you want to see someone eating like shit? Look at how I used to eat... i wasnt a bit worried about protein, or any vitamins, now I know I at least get as much of them as I can.

PornFarmer, if I looked long enough I bet I could find a list that long of problems with the common apple ...

Our bodies are all different, we react differently to everything based on our blood types, cleanliness of our livers and kidneys, toxins in our bodies, overall health, exercise, the air we breath, the depth of our breath etc etc etc.

The worst problem in this world right now is that so much of the medical industry insists that everyone can be treated the same way, with the same little pill, no matter what chemical reactions are already going on in our bodies. Eating the 'food pyramid' almost killed me, and yet that's 'recommended for everyone'.

The only thing I know for sure is that most of us know fuck all ... it reminds me of the whole 'the earth is flat' thing ... one day, we'll wonder how we knew so little!

Exactly... so worry less about what you eat, be happy and focus on enjoying life, instead of worrying about what may or may not kill you! :thumbsup

cloned milk & meat? oh fucking hell yuck.

Sorry for all the questions but aside from the personal reasons I've recently started an animal rights website with a friend who works with PETA and am very curious what leads people to their choices. I am not personally keen on being vegan or even vegetarian yet but had already started cutting out most of these things over the last 5 years for health reasons.

Its funny that 'protein' is always peoples first question - that part is easy as anything, its all the little vitamins and stuff I never knew our bodies needed that is the challenge. I am also gluten and dairy intollerant so I am having an interesting time learning about my insides!!!!!

I've been designing up a whole bunch of stuff for magazine ads etc and some of the images, especially of chicken and pig battery farms, is really horrible.

Thanks for sharing ;-)
Its funny what we can learn from a porn board LOL

its less about what will kill me and more about what will make me shit explosively for a week and feel like there's knives in my stomach ... I hope you never know what I'm talking about :-)

We have two Vegans in my martial arts class. They're both pussies. I think that's a Vegan thing.

Someones girl in this thread has them insanely whipped it is not even funny.

he probably gets his dick sucked more than you :winkwink:

i would never let a women with that kind of no class filthy mouth come near my cock. a women who talks to much with her teeth also gives head to much with her teeth.

if you saw my girl their would be no comparison, i get head more often and obviously better.

obviously!

they've both left for bed, but you're here posting .........

who are you talking about?
why are you assuming? do you know something i dont? or do?

i wonder which puppy followed to bed with its tail between its legs?

yes, biology speaking thats true. our closest relatives, chips, apes, etc.. have a diet that contains 1% - 10% meat protein.

americans on the other hand...

i have gluten problems as well. for the past several months i have slowly switched my diet to exclude meat, dairy and wheat.
it's quite a challenge to eat, but i feel great. :thumbsup

Yes of course you can get proteins without eating meat. There's a reason, however, that _most_ vegetarians and especially vegans are not very muscular, even though they may be trim.

All proteins are not created equal. I get low fat proteins from lean red meat, fishes, egg white, chicken, turkey, whey, fat free milk, black beans, etc. The mixture is important for strong muscle growth. Vegetable proteins tend to be the least useful in muscle production.

I don't really buy the "more healthy" aspects necessarily, either. Yes, vegetarians and vegans tend to be slimmer, however, you can eat meat products and still keep your fat intake low. I eat red meat, I also train from 3-5 hours a day 6 days a week including a 12km run every morning. How are you going to tell me the average vegetraian is "more healthy" than me?

one thing i learned about desert survival (i like to hike) is to never trust a legume. :thumbsup

Do YOU spit or swallow.
Don't be shy, we care, we really do.

When trash like you is around of course i spit.

How MUCH red meat do you eat?
From the 2nd paragraph it doesn't sound like you are someone who sits down to a half a kilo of meat and some potato's with nothing else ... but will you be able to keep that training regime up for the rest of your life? Probably not ... your body will probably change and you'll have to change your habits with it. Vegetable proteins may not help you build up your muscles, but the vitamins they contain will help prevent the damage you are doing through excessive exercise and the fibre's will help move all that protein through your insides to prevent it sticking around and causing cancer.

But having lots of muscles doesn't make one healthy either ... I think comparing poo is more effective than comparing muscle mass where the 'health' test is concerned! LOL

Bottom line though is what the hell would I know about your body and your health?! We're all just doing what feels best for our own bodies ...

I probably eat an 8-10 portion of red meat maybe 3-4 times a week for dinner. The rest split between salmon and chicken.

Protein doesn't stick around anywhere, because I drink a ton of water and do a lot of cardio exercise. My muscles need a lot of fuel for repair, and that's where the proteins go.

I do eat a lot of potatoes, without butter or crap of course, just plain baked potatoes because they're a complex carbohyrdate with a low glycemic value. :)

Word is, it is already in the supply. I have read quotes from people who do cloning of animals and cloned animals HAVE in fact been processed and made into meat and served.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...601337_pf.html

Funny thing is, I have always somewhat been animal rights, however I always suffered the same hypocritical day-to-day living that stated otherwise. You can't be for "animal rights" and then eat them everyday. You cant be " a dog or cat" person, and then eat cows.

Abe Lincoln said that basically you cant be for "human rights" and not "animal rights" to be in support of both brings humans back to its whole.

"I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being." - Abe Lincoln

Blacks were freed by a person who believed in animal rights.

I believe that like Albert Einstein in his final years, that man must become vegetarian to reach a higher plane of existence. It takes strength and courage, and discipline to be veg. Einstein realized it, and so did Abe Lincoln, and so do I.

I rather put myself in that category than with Ted Nugent.

Ill back up my Einstein comment with a quote:

Thats hilarous...

I agree with them all, and have lived a life of hypocrisy that lead me to change my life to match my beliefs.

...and I still eat fish every day if I can help it.

Fletch, what's wrong with eating fish?

For you, nothing. nothing is wrong with eating anything if you want to. I am not here to cast that sort of judgement on anyone. However, whats in the wter, is in the fish, have you looked at our pretty oil-free pollution-free oceans anytime lately? Mercury?

For me personally, I would rather not have things on my plate that were once alive, with a beating heart, with blood flowing through them.

Its me, no one else who has to look at my plate of food, or rest my head after when I go to sleep.

Fletch, have you checked the quality of the air lately!?

Breathing is as dangerous as eating fish and...
"Life is VERY dangerous by itself, we all know how it ends"
;)

another question for Vegans:
Are most Vegas also Hippies? or dress like them? and are you mostly spiritual?

I've been trying to keep an eye on what kinds of meats I eat. Thankfully ATL is a big city and there are places you can buy non-antibiotic chicken, beef, and pork. Most of the fish I eat here is no more than 1 mile from where it was caught :) I'm a BIG milk drinker and having a history of osteoporosis, I plan on staying that way. If I'm around a TJs I'll buy their organic skim, but otherwise usually the local skim.

My grandfather "retired" from owning a large snack food industry and buying a cattle farm so we've really been eating junk forever. Everyone who dies a natural death has been well into their 80's or 90's and there has never been any cancer on either side of the family. My maternal uncle had a heart attack at 45 but he was a VERY heavy smoker and beer drinker. He's stopped both, that was 20 years ago and he's fine now. Plays golf every day too.

My blood pressure is so low that when it was even slightly elevated my stepmother pointed out in the ER that they needed to really start moving because that just wasn't normal for me - she was 100% correct.

I think you should pick the lifestyle YOU like and live it. If you like meat, eat it. Sometimes nothing says "YUM" like being hosed off after pigging out at a BBQ :) If you're a vegan or vegetarian, more power to you.

My sister has been a vegetarian since she was five. Right now she's in the middle of a "raw fast" where she can only eat raw or lightly steamed foods. What amazed me was that the other night she had two HUGE plates of beets, turnips, kale, asparagus, and some sort of lemon sauce which is the only seasoning she can use. Within 20 minutes she was hungry again. My Thai shrimp w/rice kept me full until the next AM :)

I'm Vegan and I swallow ;)

Okay I have been reading about Vitamin B all morning basically... what I have found is this. No animal can "create" it - nor plants. B12 cannot be made by plants or by animals. It originates in the intestines of animals, it is a bacteria. HUman feces has vitamin B in it. Vitamin B does not come "from meat" it is preent in the intestines of animals when killed. People who say the only source for Vitamin B is eating animal flesh are wrong.

http://www.vitamins-supplements.org/...12-sources.php

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

So,... onto daily values.

The DV you should take in of Vitamin B12 is 6mcg - I have read everything from 2.5mcg to 6.0 mcg

Doctors recommend vegetarians take Vitamin B supplements, and drink plant based fortified milk with b12, b6 etc... which i do.

So to the vitamin b12 debate i say...

http://www.fletchxxx.com/images/vitaminb.jpg

... vitamin B12 - pfft

thats a pic of the back of my bottle of "high potency vitamin B complex pills"

Just for the record I don't call myself a "vegan", its almost impossible to live that way, just a vegetarian. Vegans avoid all animal products, no leather, etc.

My fox stoles are already dead, and my closet is full of leather jackets, and they are going nowhere. But I'm not about to start collecting skins either.

and don't get me started on my shoe collection. Many animals died for those too. I have so many they'll probably rot before I wear them out. And in Louisiana its all broken cobblestone or grass. Heels are out of the question here, pretty indefinitely til I move. :1orglaugh

Hate to break it to you, But every one dies. Sucks but thats the facts.

NosMo