Obama had the money on the ground in caucus states but also had the demographics and raw enthusiasm of the youth and affluent voters to take the time to go do a caucus which is simply not a reality for most common workers and older voters. There is a reason caucuses are not part of the GE as they simply don't allow for the involvement of everyone as you have to be there at a specific time of the day before the doors close, unlike a primary where you can vote early and on voting day have 12 hours to get to the polls to cast their vote.

And if you don't think red state vs blue state matters then I don't know what to tell ya.

Go fuck yourself.

Just told you what to do again. Don't like it? I don't give a fuck.

Now, why don't you keep your old racist and sexist self out of a conversation that has nothing to do with you?

I believe you were a democrat before me....back in the days when they were the Dixiecrats and passed all of the Jim Crow laws. The party has changed alot since your salad days geezer....now butt the fuck out of conversations that don't involve you.

Your man got stung, so of course you do. When your Teflon don gets hit for the first time it stings, I understand your reaction to it.

The last thing the Canadian government wants is to look like its interfering in an election, so its going to deny. But to believe a major news organization is going to sit back and get kicked for telling the truth and expect not to fight is crazy. CTV wasted no time in releasing the name of the Obama official tonight.

You can certainly reserve judgment though, and I don't blame you as there is a lot more here to discover. But it doesn't look good.

Not great timing before the election on Tuesday.

From the guy that thinks it doesn't matter if a state is red or blue.

You are one funny guy.

Yeah it matters like this....the democrats will win the blue states no matter who the nominee is (it's not like Kerry or Gore were particularly exciting candidates) and the republicans will win the red states no matter who the nominee is (Bob Dole anyone?)

The swing states decide elections, and they are decided by independent voters....a demographic where Obama beats Hillary by a 2 to 1 margin.

So tell me again how this red state/blue state thing benefits your candidate?

The timing is all the more reason to be skeptical about it don't you think?

My man hasn't been "stung"....there has been no coverage about this in the mainstream U.S. media that I'm aware of...and it's all just a he said/she said thing at this point.

If it grows legs and it turns out there is some there there....then I'll be concerned....but until then he gets the benefit of the doubt from me.....the same way McCain gets it on the "improper relationship with a lobbyist" bullshit.

BTW your right - at this point I don't trust Obama as far as I could throw him. And that is a drastic turn from my stance on him since December when I decided to start looking into his rise and background and it bugged me. And the past week as more and more has come out, it pushes me further and further from him.

It doesn't have to be Clinton, you can take her out as long as you gave me Edwards, Gore, Richardson or even Biden.

So your not going to convince me about Obama, and I'll never convince you about Clinton, but I still like to have all cards on the table so its a 100% informed choice so that there is no regrets later.

But I like the debate, and I like the discussion and as long as you bring data and facts to the table along with your opinions then I am all for it.

I certainly don't think Clinton is perfect. She has pro's and she has cons. Her appeal is she is rock solid on most issues and with her you know her closet already. all skeletons on that woman are exposed.

We are just starting to get a peak in Obama's closet, and if the light ever gets turned on, it will be interesting to see whats discovered. The background of his state legistature and how Jones decided to make him a senator and put his name on 26 bills as a sponsor his final year is a big issue. His taking a chair of a major sub committe and holding no hearings on something important like NATO and Afghanastan in 13 months is important.

If this NAFTA story gets exposed more, that is a big blow and is important.

If all this just came out this week, what else it to be found once the journalists decide its time to take a look? What about the right? They already have people in Conn looking into his time spent there, what a lot of people call the missing years.

Your also discounting the facts of the distain each side has for each other, and the growing hatred of the Obama campaign as the sexism debate comes into play. There is going to be a % of Clinton democrats who will cross the isle. There was a poll out this week that showed more Obama supporters would vote for Clinton than Clinton voters would vote for Obama. I'll dig up that link asap.

Also in the link I provided earlier on this page the data shows Obama is winning the independants by a good margin, but he is not getting more moderates than Clinton is. And there are far more moderates than independant voters out there as the data also shows. And the margin of moderates voting for Clinton is even larger in the swing states as the data shows. http://www.correntewire.com/count_wh...s_vs_moderates

Read it again and look at the hard data and it will become clear.

I certainly understand you giving him the benefit of the doubt as long as your eyes are open if the facts continue to come out.

The mainstream media has not had a chance to respond again since the name got released tonight so tomorrow will be interesting to see how they choose to cover it and see if they actually dig for answers or gloss over it.

Goolsbee's response or lack there of to CTV says a lot to me. If he wasn't guilty of doing it then it would be easy to deny it took place since the embassy said it didn't happen and Obama said the Canadians even said it didn't happen.

When you start referring all questions to the HQ its the same as please refer all questions to my lawyer. Where there is smoke, there usually is fire.

I really don't think there's anything there in alot of this stuff you bring up. Like I said before it's penny ante stuff....it's alot of conjecture with no facts. Or it's facts, but they're presented in a specific way to make him look bad...when if they were looked at objectively they wouldn't raise any red flags.

I don't get this distinction between independents and moderates. Ideologically speaking they're the same thing....when I refer to independents, I refer to people who are registered to vote as independents. Those are the people who normally decide Presidential elections, and those are the voters Obama is winning in an overwhelming fashion. (If you're referring to democrats who consider themselves moderate....that's a totally different thing and doesn't really have any bearing on the electability argument)

About the poll that says Clinton supporters wouldn't vote for Obama....if it was done by someone reputable like Zogby or Gallup etc...then I would look at it...but if it's done by someone who works for the Clintons or was an online poll on a pro-Clinton blog then you can't expect me to take it seriously.

This is all just innuendo at this point man.....I realize you're dying for it to be true, that there will be some "Obama scandal" that will vault Hillary to the nomination....but you're reading way too much into this.

It's so patently obvious that you're willing to twist any little thing Obama may have said or done...or any little thing anyone who's ever known him or worked with him may have said or done....to make it look like he's a bad guy or something.....that I really can't take anything you say about this seriously anymore.

I realize you like her and don't like him, but can we at least be objective and reasonable adults about this?

The next thing I'm waiting for you to do is quote to me from the Rick Santorum (a bastion of objectivity....lol) article where he accuses Obama of voting for infanticide......let's be real about this ok?

Independents are just that. Registered as Independents. Moderates are Moderate Republicans.

You could say all facts and every article about anyone and anything is skewed anyway you see fit for all things. At some point you need to accept facts as they are. Look thru some of the bs and see the facts that are present in even the biased articles. Not easy sometimes I admit.

Not sure if anything short of Obama committing a murder on live tv could make you think it holds to discredit his ability to be the president of the most powerful nation in the world.

Rarely is there one silver bullet that takes someone down. Its a lot of issues that when combined put the nail in the coffin.

I am not being trivial and bringing up his duplicate campaign and speeches as Duval. I am bringing up the fact he says he sponsored and worked to get all these bills done and passed in Illinois when in fact he was put as a sponsor by Jones and barely did any of the work to get these bills passed. And those bills are his main experience. I am bringing up the fact that he chairs and important sub committee that deals with the EU, NATO and has jurisdiction to hold hearings on how to fix some of the issues in a nation currently under war, and yet he has not had 1 single hearing on it in 13 months because he has been to busy campaigning for president. And using your chair as your experience. Ummm ok then. Clinton has held 3 hearings as chair of her committee in that time with the last one in Mid October 07.

I am pointing out that he is claiming on his site on Iraq that he had the judgment to be against the war when he was running for US Senate in 2002 when in fact he didn't start running until early 2003 a full 3 months after the vote on Iraq was passed in the senate. The only reason for lying on his website is to try and give his anti war speech more weight than it really had because he was not privy to intelligence from the CIA and Pentagon to make an informed decision based on what was thought to be credible intelligence. And even said so when he got to the senate in 2004 and said he is not sure how he would have handled the vote since he was not given the intelligence the senators were given when they made their vote.

To me these are pretty significant issues into his background and credibility.

LOL - from a man who has provided zero links to dispute that any of the info I have posted has been skewed I find it laughable. All talk with no substance baby.

I could spew my opinion all day long as well and provide no links to actual quotes, background and data, but I prefer to back my talk up with actual record.

Anyway its pointless debating this with you anymore. We both obviously want to see different things. I just wish more Obama supporters would show actual facts that show his previous experience that demonstrates he is a uniter and can reach across the aisle. And not from his website which is proven to have lies in it as evident by his claim to be running for the US senate in 2002.

So if you can start showing me the links with quotes and facts about his 26 bills he sponsored in Illinois that demonstrates the hard work he did to champion these to pass and his fellow state senators applauding his successes in getting 26 major bills thru in a year I would love to see it. It would go a very long way into restoring my belief in the man.

Anyway have a good night Lenny, been fun.

Ok how are these for facts you need to accept as they are.

Obama has won 11 contests in a row. He's won them by an average margin of 33 points. (Before these 11 contests they were basically tied)

A month ago Hillary was ahead by 20 points in Texas and Ohio. Now he's ahead in Texas and her lead in Ohio has shrunk to single digits.

In Pennsylvania, where she has the support of the governor and all of the major politicians, her once substantial lead in the polls has dropped to 6 points..and that contest isn't until April 22.

It seems to me that even if Hillary lost Texas and Ohio you don't think she should concede at that point....she should still carry on to Pennsylvania.

Then if she lost Pennsylvania she still shouldn't concede, but should try to get the superdelegates to give her the nomination even though she got her ass kicked in elections all over the country.

But I'm the problem here....it's ME who needs to accept the facts as they are.

You can have all the objections you want to his candidacy, and all the questions you want about his record, but at some point you have to realize that the majority of the people disagree with you and you're going to lose.

Hell I have alot of objections to George W Bush...I had them in 2000 and in 2004.....but that didn't stop him from becoming President and that's just something I have to live with.

I don't have to provide links and proof and whatever else....my guy won.

It's all over but the crying (well the New Hampshire crying is over...but there's more crying to come)

You're trying to make an argument that even though my guy won, he should have his win annulled and that the superdelegates should give the nomination to Hillary regardless of what the voters want. To make that argument you need to come with more than a rumor from a guy at a Canadian news outlet and the dates of a speech.

Didn't you hear? Experience means nothing. Not a requirement.

If she loses both Ohio and Texas she is done. No doubt about it. Some polls show him ahead in Tx and some show her ahead. Remember polls in NH had him ahead by a lot and he lost. Polls had him ahead in Cali and he lost by a big margin.

And he has won 11 in a row since Super Tuesday. No dispute there.

If she wins 3 of the 4 states on Tuesday everything changes and the landscape flips on its ass again.

If she won Texas and Ohio on Tuesday she would have pretty much swept the biggest states in the nation and the most important blue states plus Florida. I won't give her MI since he removed himself from the ballot. If she did win those 2 states plus all the major states in the nation should he quit? What about if she then went on to get Pennsylvania? Would he quit then?

If I were him even if she did all that I would quit. Unless she gets 2025 I would fight.

Well it certainly seems to be the case lately in the nation. But damage to one's character may eventually count? nah. no experience and a damaged character doesn't overpower Hope & Change!

Oh I haven't said your guy won. Your guy says he won, but the voters in Tx and Ohio haven't given their signature on that just yet. And if both states vote the same way then he certainly may win on Tuesday.

He has a 100 pledged delegate lead and is declaring himself the king before 11 states have voted with Texas, Ohio and Penn not weighing in yet, and 2 states that voted for Hillary not counting. That kind of arrogance can go both ways to the voters and we'll see the beginning of the future on Tuesday until then its all talk.

Well today the Clinton campaign put out a memo that said that if Obama didn't win ALL 4 contests on Tuesday then that would be proof that voters had buyer's remorse over Obama and that Hillary should continue on.
They go on to say that Obama not only has to win all 4, he has to win them by significant margins.

Just another case of the Clinton campaign moving the goal posts and saying they scored a touchdown......or agreeing to rules early on when they thought this would be a coronation and not a nomination (not counting the primaries in Michigan and Florida....the Clinton campaign agreed to those rules and agreed not to campaign there) but now that it's in her best interest to count Fla and Michigan, she wants to count them. If Obama had won there do you think she'd be talking about how we should count them because they're so important in the general?

And now there's even talk of a lawsuit to challenge the rules of the Texas primary system......rules that she's known about for over 2 years.

It seems to me that no matter what the voters say, Hillary feels like she's entitled to the nomination and the presidency and will do whatever it takes to steal the nomination from the person who got the most votes.

How you can support someone to be the president of a democracy, when they obviously don't believe in democracy, is beyond me.

200............ :glugglug

How did NAFTA treat ya today?

Anyway I just wanted to extend an offer to you Lenny.

If Obama wins the Presidency I will donate $100 to your favorite charity if you agree to do the same to mine if he does not win the Presidency?

bump for Lenny

For me a non US citizen, not living in the US. The only thing that matters is US international policy and that is not likely to change no matter who's sitting in the whitehouse.

Nevertheless, I choose democrats. Who can blame me?, right?

And the other thing I hope is that all US citizens get out of their homes on the election day and fucking vote!