Ok, so your saying that 12clicks is rolling in the sales. I get it, im wrong your right. :1orglaugh

lol.....

Well said Ron.

IMO I don't think anyone should put more than 1 pre-checked cross sell on their join pages.

Awesome post 12 Clicks:thumbsup

quoted because HERE is the REAL problem with our industry!

:thumbsup

I know how much I send him and I'm a small fry. I know how much my friends send him and they're small fries. When you've been in this business as long as I have it's fairly easy to extrapolate sales trends.

One thing you should know about 12Clicks is that he's not a porn guy, he's a business man.

Werd:pimp

To yo MOTHA!

Thats great. I never said he wasnt a business man, whatever that is. I only base my opinions on statistical facts, so since you guys are marketing genuises and all I wont question it. I was just getting a quick jab on him but you want to make a big deal of it trying to defend him. please keep on keepin on.

You've seen his stats?

So giving free content to surfers who most likely would never sign up for a paysite is worse for this industry than fucking over people who do pull their cc and pay for a site. Yeah that makes sense idiot.

And Robbie is just saying that because his content is shared on tubes so hes pissed off. He doesnt give a fuck that surfers get billed for 120 bucks in hidden xsells but hes crying all over the place when one of his vids is on a tube site.

If you think tube sites are worse than hidden xsells then you must be real fucking slow. Like reaaaal fucking slow.

Since when did 12clicks become relevant again?

Yeah you must be a fucking newbie because cross sells have been on the net for years... here's a realtity check dude... the net is still alive!!!!!! So Fuck Off!!

:1orglaugh

Dennis, you are an idiot :1orglaugh

Come on, youre seriously saying surfers who surf free stuff is worse for this industry than honest surfers who are willing to pay who get fucked up the ass on a massive level?

Think about it for a second and then realize how stupid you sound :1orglaugh

Still you are probably dealing with someone who is aroused and wishes to complete the membership fast and may not pay full attention.

So I still think that having pre-checked cross-sales is shady.

Actually anytime a banner or ad comes on gfy ,i go check. So Im not speaking out of my ass. Ive been doing this for 8 yrs now. Though it's easy just to label people haters, people dont operate in a vacuum. Lost paypal and that was a nice chunk of memberships each month, saw cb ratio go to 1% and ibill went down the toilet owing me 13 grand. So considering all those things were caused by the actions of others and affected my bottom line. I think I have paid a pretty dollar for the right to be pissed off.

tony I'm not sure that paypal was anybody in this industries fault was it? I thought ebay bought them and that was that. But I'm not well versed on it.

Im sure 12clicks isnt the only one who wishes you would drop this, but no i havent seen his stats, but i did stay at a holiday inn last night.

And they got charged a dollar OR a free trial. And once they blow their load they can see in their email box 2 emails. One with the site they KNOW they joined. And one with the info for the site that was pre-checked. They can then cancel it.

What I hate...are the motherfuckers that join by ACH and then have a good old time in your members area before the bank figures out their check is no good a few days later. :(

Or how about those "innocent", "naive", and "stupid" surfers who join your site...stay for 5 months....I can look them up in our login logs and see all the stuff they did...and then BAM hit you for 5 fucking chargebacks. Yeah, surfers are real stupid. not

bump for the clicks

no it was the level of fraud.

How did people do that with paypal? Damn, I guess I learn something everyday. I had thought it was from Ebay buying them out. I had an ad on there and it said my item was "kick-ass" and they yanked the ad and wrote me an email telling me not to use "foul language" lol

http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/wire...pal/print.html
They did it the same way they did with credit cards

That was Franck.

One could get the idea that maybe at one point they where assraped with a $120 crosssale and now they are getting even by assraping back the next porn site they joined.. now wouldn't that be ironic ?

..Or it could be that Joe surfer got so pissed about extra charges cheated upon him that he actually called his bank and got a chargeback.. Now Joe not only got his money back, but he also found out how easy it is to do a chargeback.. So next time Joe joins a pornsite he has learned two valuable lessons.. 1) pornsites will cheat him.. 2) How to chargeback..

Isn't it great how we turned a once innocent and naive guy ready to buy porn, into a now educated surfer that knows the game ?

Now after 5 months Joes wife/daughter/son used Joes card to buy some $19.95 stupid shit on the net and forgets to tell Joe about it, so all Joe see's is an unknown charge on his CC statement and thinks "that's those damn cheating pornsites again".. Think you can guess what Joe does now ? a chargeback for his 5 month membership maybe ?

So has Nigerian Scams :2 cents:

:1orglaugh

I loves me some cross sales... I'll buy all you have from netbilling!!!

And it could be that is all just conjecture and guessing on your part. I got a quick education into this by simply googling my sites name and then going to some of the countless forums out there where the poor ignorant surfers gather to talk about the different ways to break into paysites. I'm sure you've seen password trading forums? They've been replaced by "upload" forums, where those poor dumb surfers slap each other on the back for how many scenes they have uploaded and provide the links for.

Assraped? That's ridiculous. You got assraped when you bought your last car and paid THOUSANDS of dollars in bullshit charges. Both of my brothers are in the car business...I know every trick. And when I buy a new vehicle I take one of them with me and the car dealership is VERY disappointed. They call it bringing your "lawyer" when you bring in an insider. A one dollar trial that the surfer can cancel at anytime and/or chargeback? Hardly an assrape. But that's just the way I see it. Many on here refuse to see anything except the dramatic. I don't. But it does make for good fodder for the freesites.

I don't take submissions on my tgp's anymore since around 2003. But if I did, I would be extorting the fuck out of the programs that have x-sells. Even though they have had them for 8 years or more already...I would use all this drama as a way to be "shocked" and then I'd start a nice monthly extortion payment to keep my traffic coming to them.

So see? There's a silver lining! lol

Despite what they dished out to the press they did not kill off adult for fraud. They killed off adult transactions due to content, primarily legal but highly controversial underage non nude sites and the fact that ebay did not wish to be tied to them.

During the paypal buyout and shortly after paypal came running to adult with open arms. News shows like dateline, 20/20, 60 minutes, and assorted day time talk shows were running rampant with these under aged "adult" sites and on nearly every single fucking one of them was big ass paypal logo's. Ebay wanted no part of that type of publicity at all.

Ebay had been dealing with adult since they first opened up shop. They latter hid the living hell out of it as well, mostly to not catch a ration of shit from the public - yet never killed it.

They could not censor legal content while allowing other legal content so they axed it all, end of story. Both paypal and ebay both knew the level of fraud in adult at the time and they also both knew that online auctions had a much higher fraud percentage, charge back percentages, and such. (and still does).

Yet I guess it is better just to automatically believe what one reads, specially on the internet.

so salon.com lied? lol

I knew that was the story I had heard! Thanks Afterhockmedia! And this time, at the Atlanta show we will definitely speak to each other lol

la times made it up also
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/may...iness/fi-ebay8

From that LA Times article:

"Citing high instances of fraud, the popular online payment service said Wednesday that it would soon stop doing business with Web merchants that sell adult-themed merchandise"

"PayPal drew the ire of some in the adult entertainment industry, who said the service’s move amounted to morality policing by PayPal owner EBay Inc., the widely used online auction house. The PayPal announcement came just days after Wal-Mart Stores Inc. stopped selling three racy magazines – FHM, Maxim and Stuff – because they made some shoppers uncomfortable."

Sounds like they used "fraud" as their cover. Most "fraud" took place back in the mid to late 1990's It was called dialers and was truly a grand ripoff in the hundreds of millions dollars. What "fraud" was Paypal citing back in 2003?

Yep its all a plot. lol Denial isnt just a river. lol

Thanks for sharing your wisdom :winkwink:

No Salon did not lie, lol. Ebay said a few things. Salon reported one of them.

Sometimes you just say the PC thing to the press when your in charge of a big ass company.

I do however like how you once again jumped to a conclusion. Nowhere did I say Salon lied nor did I imply it.

I to lost a lot of money when paypal pulled the plug. Enough in rebills to make myself still sick to this day and it dwarfed what you let alone I lost with ibill (not to mention a few other billers). Paypal was saying one thing, ebay said something else.

How could one not jump to a conclusion when you said :
" Yet I guess it is better just to automatically believe what one reads, specially on the internet."
Also its not like Im looking from the outside. Ive seen the fucking people do.

tony...I can sense you're getting worked up over nothing bro. Paypal is done and gone. I don't believe our people did stuff to cause that. I remember when it happened it was like a shot out of the blue. Most of the bad stuff had happened 5 years previously...I'm not even sure if Paypal existed when the real fraud was happening. xsells are legal and used by many. You can choose to not use them. But for many it is a huge revenue stream. If it wasn't they wouldn't do it. If the members didn't rebill it wouldn't be profitable. Speculation on why it works is just that...speculation. Unless you own a program that's doing millions of dollars in sales then you and I just don't know the reality. We're like the employees at Walmart sitting around in the stockroom bitching about how the multi-billion dollar company is run and trying to decide how it should be done. :)

Yup people have been fucking people.

We also know that the impossible to fucking cancel credit card crap had pretty much already came to an end before paypal came into adult, and what remained was always with merchant accounts that were privately owned.

Charging obscene rates also was pretty much gone in the same fashion as listed above by that time.

Dialers where about the last thing people were fucking customers with at this time and paypal did not deal with that option anyways. When I say fucking I do mean billing wise, I am not speaking of endless pop up console chains from hell that would crash peoples PC's nor toolbars and that crap.

Paypals main adult customer base was small site owners who honestly never have been the type to do serious fraud in the first place, specially when it came down to fucking customers. Of that customer base a large ass chunk of them was the legal underage sites. They did not have the time to stick it out long enough in this business to gather a bunch of the larger sites. Not to mention almost no one was operating with multiple billers and such (no cascades). So the super programs with affiliate systems pretty much ignored paypal, unless it was an option for personal in house traffic. Again mostly because people could not credit the affiliate with an alternate sale and it would of been considered a leak.

Right on the money.

I'm pretty sure though that even without bringing your brother you wouldn't sudently find yourself having bought 2 cars (or more) just because you missed some fine printing or forgot to remove an x :1orglaugh
..and if you did, wouldn't you be pissed ?

A good example though, with car dealers.. With some of them trying to cheat they all get the bad reputation, and now You know they will most likely cheat you so you become more carefull when dealing with them and take your precautions..
Now isn't that just what we are doing too, teaching the surfers to be carefull with pornsites, because they will most likely be cheated ?

Let me ask you.. If you had the chance to cheat a car dealer instead of him cheating you.. would you ?
..and would you feel bad about it.. heck no, why should you.. He'd have cheated you too, right ?

So what are the surfers options..
1) He can join a site and do a chargeback, by default, or at least by any chance of anything looking suspicious.
2) He can stay clear of memberships all together and look for places to get it for free.. Heck, if he's just a little smart he can even join up with like minded and start sharing what he finds.
3) He can combine them and do both.

Think he'll feel bad about it ?
Why should he.. the porn sites would have cheated him too !


Not saying we wouldn't have password sites or upload forums eigther way, But damn.. do we really need to feed them more people ?