no, 4chan is bigger, but they already know the sauce for all the free pron


your other point is irrelevant to the tube/torrent issue though, so you say that you have to work like a dog for 18 hours a day, imagine how rich you would be if sales weren't slow? your working 18 hours a day doesn't change the reality of the situation, it just means that you are working like a dog for what you can squeeze out of it, good for you, but it doesn't change the fact that the tubes etc have decimated the industry :2 cents:

Correct, HOWEVER, I realize that bitching about it on GFY isn't going to change any of it, so.. I work harder and smarter to overcome it, because this is the ONLY solution.

NOBODY is going to change the reality for you.

Yes tubes have an impact on online adult entertainment sales.
Yes the economy has an impact on sales.
Yes torrents have an impact on sales..

BUT, are they to BLAME!! Who is to blame? Only YOU!! If your sales go down, you find a way to make them go back up.. plain and simple... Nobody is going to give you the answers nor the solutions to the problems you face.. Only YOU can figure out what will increase your profits.. bitching about it isn't going to accomplish anything,,, Especially on the very forum where some of the biggest players in the biz ARE THE ROOT of the problem.

dude:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Would I be making more if tubes and torrents didn't exist? Bet your fucking ass I would... but that's the past.. That's not the reality, so, in order to overcome it, I must work harder and smarter in order to overcome this obstacle that was put in my way.

2007 was much more than 2008.. Many things had an impact.. however, the changes I made within my methods will make 2009 a record year.


We all can sit here and complain.. we always do... but look what's being accomplished....



NOTHING!

You are still a clown dude:

You said quote: "Tubes are not to blame, nor is the economy... YOU ARE TO BLAME!"

Did you not say that?

You are the one fucked up! (still) after 7 years :1orglaugh

Anyone can clearly see that I did indeed say exactly that, but unfortunately, your literacy is a problem since you now a second time have come here to ask me what I said.

I'm just a sexy girl.

imo flip the torrents with the xsales. People that use torrent never have and never will pay for porn.

Anyone that says tubes don't effect the industry in a massive way is insane.

I gotta say, that was one of GFY's classic threads, I think Spacedog himself would have to admit that

There is no reason for the consumer to whip out the credit card for porn anymore. Why should they? everything is free!

Wake up and run your business like a business before it's too late. Take a lesson or two from the corporate world.

This business is packed to the gills with short sighted people (tube site operators that allow user uploads, torrents, forced cross sales, hidden cross sales etc..) that will either piss off the customer so they don't return or continue to give away free long length videos to the masses in hopes of gaining a few extra sales to cams/dating sites at the expense of the industry. In essence..they are willing to kill off any chance business longevity for a quick buck. Why would anybody pay for it if you can get it free?

Because the simpletons refuse to look past the next billing cycle, the only fix is to be self regulation possibly through some kind of an elected council and a return to censored tours/previews of old.
But...there would always be the cheaters. They would have to be shunned and nobody should work with them. Don't sell them content, hosting, etc..

Unfortunately this biz can't or won't do it. It is doomed to let greed and continued stupidity overrule common sense and ultimately this biz will consume itself. No government interaction needed.

I'm done venting....carry on.
:2 cents:

I agree tubes are a huge problem in this industry and will be until the laws are changed, but imho I think that file sharing forums are a lot worse than tubes:2 cents:

The difference is file sharing forums are not being shoved down everyone's throats like the tube sites are.

File sharing forums are also bad yes, but they are for the more tec savy user.

Like torrents or usenet, etc etc

Tubes with full length videos are popping up everywhere and taking a big slice of the pie (and giving it away)

Yeah and tubes are very easy for the user, your grandmother can use a tube.

I don't think her nursing home has hi-speed internet yet. :1orglaugh

j/k my granny still lives on her own in her own condo, still drives herself, and believe it or not still drinks occasionally (scotch & soda) & smokes cigs every day. (since she was 25) she's 88 now.

born in 1921 and went through the last depression.

which was a lot tougher than this one.

You have a very good point there BV and I do agree with you, Tubes are a lot easier for the surfer to access and use, One click and they are watching a full clip, blown their load and will never pull their credit card out to pay for porn again,

But also it doesn't take them very long to become tech savvy these days :( It just takes one click of a mouse to download a full clip or dvd in HD quality then they can watch it anytime they like :(

I think you guys are selling the impact of filesharing forums a little short

this is where the huge growth in piracy will be this year, tubes will be huge because that will be the first place that new internet users (which used to be worth gold to us) get their porn, but filesharing through rapidshit and megauploadgs are getting to be the norm, and you are starting to more and more see links to it dropped all over the place, blogs, forums, comments on sites, more and more you see site rips and gallery and movie rips being shared through the hosts like rapidshit and that is a huge problem, because it is so user friendly that any computer beginner can click on a rapidshit link and figure out how to get their free porn fix, and it is all member area stuff :2 cents:

:2 cents::2 cents:

ND owns bigtits.com

Fucking tubes.

So we will warm them up with free full length tubes. then they will want more and better quality, so they will move on to the torrents and file sharing.

then the tubes will start giving away full length HD streaming with a download option

Hey, why don't we just send a hooker over to their house to suck them off also?

This fucking shit sucks ass and the Live Cam sites and Dating Sites are laughing all the way to the bank.


note: Just for the record (I am not talking about tubes with just teaser clips)

You are absolutely 100% right on this. Tube sites even with full length unlicensed videos offer essentially a random selection of videos that may not satisfy even a casual porn viewer. Torrents and forums have search engines that offer a user *exactly* what they want in terms of the exact DVD movie, a particular site rip or a starlet or director's name. This is a much more dangerous thing since a casual or serious collector can often find exactly what they want for free rather than paying for it which they may very well otherwise be willing to do.

Sales were already down more then 85 % because of TGPs so you fail... old days convertions haven othing to do with today's.

Yes, that is exactly right...
EXCEPT for one little problem.

If the content is unprotected it quickly is no longer exclusive as it will be on every tube and torrent site within hours of being in the members area. Believe me, I found that out and started protecting my stuff and watched sales go back up.

Well...at least until the economy collapsed. :disgust

Well if all of the tubes/torrents paid for and licensed their content then this would primarily be a affiliate only issue and those who are actually pornographers would be fine. However this is not a fight about traffic and who has it. It is about not paying for the right to use the content. Most pornographers could care less what tube/torrent site owners were doing with the content as long as they were being paid their licensing fee and the license terms where being upheld. As it currently stands though there is no real way to play in this market as a pornographer with copyright laws as they are.

As for bitching about it, it helps relieve the stress and lets some steam out. Perhaps if your lucky you may influence a few others and get a few more to not promote someone that encourages or supports the theft.
Then no amount of extra work, harder work and so forth helps the problem and the losses when you are more than an affiliate and an actual pornographer. You spend money to produce a quality product and then someone else comes along, steals it and then begins to profit off of it themselves cutting you out and not paying you for the right to do it. No amount of extra work makes up for that.

"mmmfmfmmmff,"

mumbles an agreement and then goes off to jerk off to some free tube porn

Don't blame Tube sites for our inability to compete with them. If members who were paying for content are now going to Tube sites then the sponsors of those sites are to blame. And the affiliates who sent the traffic. Our short sighted greed is yo blame for the slow down of sales.

Because if a site that converts like shit, supports thousands who will not spend to get one who will, has the biggest mish mash of pulp content, delivered off slow erratic servers and all in a crap resolution is taking our paying members then we are to blame.

No one else, not Tubes, not the advertisers, not the affiliates opening Tube sites and not the members. Our inability to compete with shit has shown us up for what we truly are.

An industry that can only survive when it's customers have to buy.

you have to offer a better product than the tubes, and have to lower your prices, business has to evolve that way or else they'll die.

And when the tube/torrent takes your products?
Also what price do you suggest we charge to compete with free?

Good post BV and there are a couple more, but this one is good and deserves answering.

The truth is the people who own Craig list don't give a shit about this argument and if your point was right we would all still be working in the dark ages. The Luddites used the same argument against the cloth looms. They lost that fight.

So is the argument to go back to 10 second clips on MPGs? Because the people running the Tube sites will not follow it.

Seriously these guys are our friends and the ones we want on Tube sites. We should use them to close Tubes. Remember "traffic" is just a cost until it buys something. Traffic is the route to profit, not the final solution. That's the problem with many of the people here. Plus the fact that their level of porn expertise leaves them with only this market to target.

And now you see why content is King, OK good content that appeals to the surfer more than what he can get for free on a Tube site. Because if your business is based on selling something the most important person in that business is the customer. We as an industry spend 3-4 times more on what happens outside our members areas. We spend a fortune on going to shows, skinning boards, paying affiliates, supporting affiliates, giving them all the tools they need and the rest. We then cut the costs of the members areas. And we moan when our customers prefer the experience of a Tube site to the experience of a paysite.

But it's not our fault is it?

And what are we doing about it?

At least the Luddites went out and smashed up the looms. We have done the opposite we have supported Tube sites.. Yes all the moaning amounts to nothing and we as an industry have supported Tube sites.

We post on a board that has made it clear it supports Tubes and those who support them.


Most sponsors have done little to nothing to win back lost customers. Showing me one or two that have does nothing to disprove that point.

Most sponsors are cutting spending on their members areas and spending more on "traffic"

Most sponsors are offering longer and longer clips to Tubes, legal or not.

Most sponsors who used to spend on custom content have stopped all together, few have moved to buying non exclusive. Some have just cut the budget to each scene. So the quality of "bought" content has little to offer against free content. To the members.

I have said it before and it's ignored. But I will say it again.

There is only one way to bring down Tube sites, legal or illegal, taking customers away from us. That is to make those sites unprofitable by winning back the customers who will pay and leaving them with those who will not.

Nothing else will work.

Anyone flaming me can prove me wrong by telling us what will work.

The reply from After Shock Media shows you how little some really understand. He has no solution and continues to flame the only solution.

AFS here are a few things you can do. Sell members areas full of content that's worth buying, not content shot on a budget that makes producing quality impossible. Stop asking content providers to shoot 4-5 solo girl masturbation scenes in a day for $1200 to $2000.

Tell shooters to send home crap girls. And send home crap shooters. The problem is there are too many sites full of content that's produced badly and not worth buying in the eyes of the customers. And there is the problem, it has nothing to do with Tubes, nothing to do with legal or illegal content and nothing to do with traffic. It's about customer satisfaction and most people in this business are clueless about that.

99% and more of the people surfing the Adult Net will not buy porn. Yet we spend 35% of our turnover on them. OK the figures can be adjusted, most understand. Here is the problem and the cause.

99% of the people selling porn don't have a clue about the 1% who buy.

And here you see the problem. The number of people who see Tubes as the future rather than the customers who spend money.

And here is the solution. Stop spending money time and effort on those people and start spending it on those who do spend money. Leave the freeloaders to the Tubes and let profit and loss do the rest.

The belief that HD is the solution has been blown out of the water by the rise of Tubes.

Yes a lot of moaning and no solutions.

:2 cents::2 cents:

True dat.

Depends on the content. Fetish content by and large is some of the worst shot shit, compared to your and photography standards. However it retains like a mother fucker, and sells like hot cakes.

People do not want fetish in HD. Nor do they want porn that appeals to the masses, like most hardcore is shot. They want porn tailored to their taste, and how they like it. It does not need to be Markham $2000.00 a scene. It has to be what they want.

Too many people in this business think like a webmaster and not like a customer. Nor does most of this industry show ANY marketing skills what so ever. In essence, the ability to tailor content, and convert a sale.

:2 cents:

Paul point out one area where it shows how little I understand it in what I posted. Also please point out where I flame the only solution. Only thing I even mentioned was why some people bitch in such threads - it does help blow off some steam.

Do you know what my sites are? I know my own sites market inside and out. I provide them very high quality content and how they want it. I speak with a large number of my members each and every day. I provide to their specs and most all of it is produced and made to their suggestions. I spend a lot on the production of it and give it to them as they wish. My charge back and refund ratio statistically barely even registers and I am still able to pull off over a 90 day average retention in today's market. Almost all of my revenue is spent on customer service and retaining those customers.

None of that helps me when I come across full site rips of mine with thousands of listed downloads or views on some tube site. Very hard to compete with my own quality and everything else when my shit is stolen and used to promote some fake ass dating site that they are gladly buying from.

Now what can you say ya old fuck, it is very obvious you still have issues since I and others have picked apart some of your past posts and your mentality at times. Perhaps it can just be solved with magic converting join links.

Not having a go at you because the rest of your post shows you do have a clue.

However if you don't know the answer to that you should not be in the business of selling. If you don't know how to compete with people you should go learn a new profession. Because people who know how to profit from free will take your business away from you.

This post actually shows more of the reason why Tubes are taking members away.

Not having a go at Jesus just the thinking behind content production for the last 8 years. This is general and there are exceptions.

Mainly the custom content was produced on a budget that stopped people doing a good job. You don't get great shooters shooting great content on some of the budgets offered for custom content. This has led to models working badly and producing a bad product. It has also led to content being shot badly, a fuck scene should be 10% maximum of genital close ups. I see scenes where it's over 20%. Faked porn sucks, faked reality is not worth paying for.

Also it leads to smaller sites, a custom scene can often cost 10 times what a non exclusive scene can cost. That leads to sites 1/10th the size, OK 1/5th in some cases. It leads to a site where the consumer is expected to sign up for a month to a site that's got a small selection of scenes often shot by the same person and each scene repeats itself, they just change the girl. As far as selection is concerned Tubes have you beaten. Because you needed to buy "exclusive" to feed the TGPs. :)

That's the only place most content got saturated, if it were saturated inside members areas we shooters would be very rich. Micro niche has to be shot exclusive because we will not shoot it. Most porn does not need to shot exclusive unless you shoot it very special.

This industry needs to see why customers are turning to Tubes and Torrents to compete with them. AND if all the "experts" were so right in the past we would not be where we are today and losing customers. The problem was the experts were talking to affiliates and clue less about what the customers want to buy.

Law of supply and demand kicks in with all selling. :thumbsup

Is it poor porn or poor photography? Because the two are very different and if anyone thinks a crisp clear image gets a dick hard they are clowns who can only sell the fact they bought a HD camera. :winkwink:

:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

The problem is when sites are based on porn for the masses shot on $1,000 budgets.

Too many people in this business are webmasters and not consumers. Never seen so many vegetarians selling meat in my life. :1orglaugh

I agree with you

If some of you would actually ready mainstream boards, and blogs. Hell even ShoeBitch.. you would see that internet traffic, and sales, are down across the board. Not just in adult.

They are experiencing some of the same erratic traffic patterns I have been seeing for the past 2-3 months. Feast and famine patterns. Not following traditional statistics.

I suppose tubes are to blame for mainstream loss in sales also eh?

:disgust

Some of you just need to face the facts that the internet consumer, porn or not, is getting more intelligent. Also the impact of global economy, and 24/7 doom and gloom messages are keeping people from spending on porn, internet, etc.

This is how much some "experts" know their job.

http://www.recently18.com/tour1.php

A site that is titled "Recently 18" has a porn star who is long past 18 and done enough porn to buy property and get into the rental business as the first girl I see. Then the next page has her as a banner in fishnet stockings. I stopped looking because clearly the site owner is not as expert as he thinks he is.

And it's sites like these that have led to members turning away from buying porn.

So what can we do to combat this?

Keep making exclusive porn. But make sure you buy from people able to shoot the right product and not the right price. Forget about a crisp clear image, it is secondary to the porn. Make sure the shooter knows what he's doing, he controls the models, they put out a great scene and the result after watching it, is the member wants to see the next one. AND make sure the next one is not a repeat just a different girl. No one wants 30 days in a site with one scene acted out by 30 girls or the same girl 30 times. Porn = Reality. Be it amateur or Playboy it has to be real.

And build the non exclusive market as filler and variation to the main theme. We will never shoot as well as a custom shooter with the right skills on the right budget, but we add bulk, selection and variety to a site and that's a big draw of Tubes. Why pay $30 recurring for a site with 50 videos shot by the same guy when you can get a site with 5,000 shot by different guys for free? You need to bulk up and vary a sites content to retain.

Give members dating and live web cam content for free. Hit the Tube site backers where it hurts, in their pockets. Let's have some free shows inside the site, let's have dating site content, all with upsales at a much lower price that the Tube backers. Hit the backers in their pocket and they can't afford to advertise on the sites taking the customers.

If anyone has any better ideas I'm very willing to listen as I'm sure many others are. Some will tell you there is no solution, well none they can think of and none that does not involve Government legislation to save us. :Oh crap

But those with no solution will still flame those with one. All be it a slim one. :winkwink:

Are we feeling the pinch
 

Is the credit crunch affect everyone here...

The 'solution' is simple...

Tubes using illegal content are breaking the laws.

While there are some, and a rare few, who are truly independent of paypal, sponsors, U.S. based domain registrars, or hosting. I have yet to find em. Every one I have served papers/DMCA on has something based in the U.S. if not everything.

Funny how my stuff comes down when I am email/mail/faxing some CC's of that ole DMCA to them, their host, registrar, their sponsors, attorney general of their state, and local law enforcement (second notice).

Your shit is off their site in minutes, and doesn't go back up on their forums. I do not have to ask twice on their tubes. Funny how that shit works when you actually DO what you say. Not just talk like you are a big shit on some message board.

:2 cents:

P.S. This does not even get into the 2257 argument, and some annoymous tips to the FBI can handle that.

there is a war in gaza ... muslims are buying less porn than at the normal days ... imho ... :2 cents: :)

Very true and a big part of the fight.

The downside is most sites don't have content worth protecting. It's "exclusive" but the same as every other scene on every other site in the niche and style. I will do what you're saying with me retro site and am finding submitting to Tubes is bringing in the traffic.

If you have something the porn consumer needs and can only find one scene of it on a Tube he will come over and is likely to buy. If you have something that he likes and he can find dozens of similar scenes for free on a Tube, why should he buy?

The key to fighting Tubes and Torrents lies in giving the customers good reasons to buy, other than they have to. Because today they don't have to and as BV says that money is gone for those who can't compete.

You did it again paul. You went to my sig, again a site I do not own to try to point out how I am wrong. Have told you this a few times now and yet you still do not either listen or comprehend. Really just shows how thick headed you really are.

I have said it several times now. My site is a micro niche, now are teens a micro niche at all? I mean we all know they are about as general of porn as one could possibly be. I just happen to not push the site to GFY as I currently do not advertise to affiliates. Have always tried to keep as much traffic in house as possible.

Now I did ask you to explain yourself and you could not. Best you could do is go to a site I do not own, and am not the webmaster for - then proceed to say I am not as an expert as I think I am.

OK not your site and you don't control it. You just promote it on GFY for others to send traffic to so you can earn money. And this absolves you from responsibility. Fine we all understand.

So you are an expert who will promote a site that has it so wrong. We all get it, thank you for pointing this out.

Now as an expert if you have any ideas how to compete with Tubes we can all listen to them. Or do you not have any ideas and just flaming?

This thread is titled " Why Sales Are Slow (my opinion)" and it's the general belief that the reason is the emergence of Tubes. Or Torrents. No they are not the reason sales are slow, neither is the recent recession. They are not helping but the reason goes a lot deeper and far harder to put right.

The reason sales are slow is we as an industry lost the the customers trust and respect in us as the provider of his porn. Yes the reason sales are slow is the customer has better alternatives to joining a paysite for his porn. And the reasons are plain to see.

We have sacrificed the customers loyalty to drive more traffic to more sites that simply turn the customers off buying from us. We seem to think the customer is uneducated in porn when we send him to sites that simply don't have the content they proclaim to have. We think that signing him up to a site with 40 scenes of the same girl, shot by the same person on a budget that makes it impossible to produce good porn has no effect. Many think people buy porn on impulse and it's just a numbers game. Maybe for them it is because they lack the ability to understand what they're selling. We regarded our customers as a disposable commodity.

And now that customer is voting with his feet. Many have decided we can keep our poor sites, we can keep our endless efforts to send him to sites that are simply not good enough and we can keep our efforts to squeeze him dry so we can buy more traffic to send to more sites that convert badly and make more customers non spenders.

But what do you expect from us. When people will promote sites that are not their own and may not be the most worthy for a short term gain. Yes AFS you're right. I don't get it. I don't get that you promote a sponsor with a site like Slutty Dollars has when you could promote your own site. Maybe you do it because promoting Slutty Dollars is good financially for you, better than promoting your own site. Maybe it's a great sponsor and this one site is not so bad after all or maybe it's you promoting a sponsor for a short term gain. Yes I don't get it maybe you could explain it.

IMHO there are three ways to get customers back buying porn from paysites again. One is US Government legislation that prohibits Tube and Torrent sites from operating and blocks them from US surfers. Anyone got any faith in that happening?

The other is we win back the customers from these sites. There are ways to do this, what it needs is a total rethink of the industry. Traffic is not king in a repeat sale business, satisfied customers are. Target the 1% who do buy and make sure they want to buy again and again. Give them a membership option that suits them and not us.

The other is to target the sites that advertise and support Tubes. Give away free webcam and dating content on your site, upsell for a fraction of the cost of normal sites like AFF and Cams.com. Take a few of the 1% who will buy porn, dating or cams away from Tubes on a deal that is so good they will come back. Make advertising on Tubes less profitable, leave them with 99.5% of surfers who do not spend.

There is a forth option, that's a combination of the last two. Make our sites more appealing to members so they are willing to keep buying porn from us. The problem is it needs a rethink of a large sector of the industry. The affiliate has to be put second to the members. More has to be spent on what happens after someone has spent and less spent on what happens before he spends. More has to be spent on the content of the sites and less on the traffic.

Will it be easy to fix? No. It has taken us years to get here and will take years to get out.

Is there any other option? No because the final decision on who buys what porn is with the customer today. If you need to take away that option to sell your porn then you really don't know how to sell porn. Sticking it on the screen of someone with no options is not Selling, it's supplying.

Yes AFS I don't get it. I don't get why so many will promote sites that are the cause of the problem and provide no real solutions.

Best post ever on the whole tube thing :thumbsup

Again you never explained yourself and just tried to divert to yet another thing to bitch about and finger point at.

A quick btw, I do not earn from any referrals that join up to the site either. Then again you could pick any site posted on GFY and they would meet the same issues in some way. Especially to your terms. You are still just making guesses in the dark so you may as well stop going down that road. Wish you were as persistent in explaining the first part of my response though - have asked several times now without a proper answer from you.

How do I compete with tubes? Well the simple answer is I do not.
Legit tubes are not my competition and they are just affiliate traffic generators. Illegal tubes on the other hand are not competition.
As I previously stated, if they actually paid for all of their content I would not even give a rats ass about them aside from thinking the business model is short sided and teaching customers free is acceptable is a bad idea.

If someone is stealing what you produce and giving it away then it really does not matter how well you produce it, if it meets customer demands, or anything else. Given the choice between free and cost money, majority will pick free. So that leaves me with only a few possible ways to deal with it.

1. Lock up everything inside of the site, keep the honest honest and make it a little harder for the thieves. Downside is of course lower scores on review sites as they see it as a bad thing. Then of course the potential for a lot of member complaints.
2. Spend a few hours each week searching out my material and sending off DMCA letters to the tube sites. This does work, it eats up time and resources which of course costs money. The results are very temporary as well, yet in todays market mandatory to do.
3. Spend a little more time and some money on postage and envelopes each week. Keep writing just about everyone I can think of in government about needed changes to the DMCA laws. However it does suck to keep writing the same damn people week in and out, however no plans on stopping.

Now unlike some I am less concerned with tubes than torrent sites. They present a different set of issues and the DMCA process is a whole fucking lot harder, not to mention they are more apt to not comply. They are also the source for many tubes in the first place. Often the best you can do is have their listings killed in the engines, unless your inclined to spend some time seeding bad files to annoy them.

On another topic that you keep mixing in, the value of the customer and keeping them as such. I am always on the look out for more than I can offer them that they want. As I previously stated I spend a lot on customer retention, well more than I do on acquiring new ones. I never thought of them as numbers and have always approached it from filling their needs and wants first. When given the choice they always speak pretty damn loud and clear, aside from the occasional tech request such as a desired format - the number one request is always more content more often. Many have even said they would pay more per month to have it.
My big issue is I am micro niched. Which also highly limits what else I can offer them that they want. Trust me I have asked numerous times. They do not want other peoples content. They do not want content outside of the niche. They do not even want live cams unless of course it is for the niche in question. Nadda to dating as well. That does not mean there is not stuff that I can offer, just that it is limited.

However again I will state, retention for me is not a problem. That is an area that is doing well and has done well. Issue for me is that my own material is out there being given away by others without my permission and for which I am not being compensated. This is effecting those who would of normally been curious about the material whom typically would of became a member. Now more of them that are curious know that they can find a full site rip in a few clicks. After that there really is not much in it for them to think about joining. Whats worse is that some may actually think that the site rip is what it is. They may think that is as good as the quality gets. That what is in the rip is all the site has to offer. Then hell a lot of people actually think that it is released by us and is doing no harm.

I have however never focused on the large percentage of non buyers. You are right about focusing on the smaller percentage of actual buyers. Thing is the smaller percentage of what once were the buyer pool is shrinking.
I will not state the following as fact. It however is pretty strong at least in my arena. The majority of buyers are older than ever before on average. Of these most have been buying porn for many years. They are also the most loyal buyers. However the number of buyers 18-28 or so are shrinking. The younger the age the less buyers there are. Also after polling the members I have found that more often than not the younger someone is the more likely this was their 1st or 2nd porn purchase. Been following this trend now for sometime.

Not exactly rocket science to figure out something is influencing people in certain age brackets. Especially when the more educated and long time porn buyers who have been taken by other sites in the past are your best customers. What the data seems to be showing is that with each younger age bracket the idea of paying for something is getting larger and larger.

We're seen NO decrease in sales due to the economic crisis what-so-ever.. but we had to move all our traffic away from the big mainstream porn site which is placed all over the tube sites to the sites which isn't.. the sales are still there

This is the Tube solution to your solution.

They go buy DVDs. And that's it. No matter how tight we on the Internet lock down content they will always be able to pop to the local porn shop and buy 5-6 scene DVDs for $20. That will not break the bank and it will still keep them taking out traffic.

OK you have it right on your site, would you like to prove you have it right by giving us the link?

OK you're adding content every day and your members don't want free web cam or dating and you don't compete with the illegal Tubes. Others do and it's they that need to fight. And it's others I'm concerned with.

The battle against Torrents is another fight. Can we beat them by targeting their advertisers and making them unprofitable? Can we make our sites more attractive to sign up to because we give free dating and cam sites content? No one knows including you until enough of us try it. Just because your site, which we can't see, has members that don't want it does not mean every site is the same.

As for adding new content day after day, here you're spot on and I have already said we all need to up our members areas. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Now where is your site so we can see how well it works?

We've seen very little decrease in paysite joins over the last 3-4 months. Yes over a 2 year period revenue is down, but not over the last few months. Why it's are down is guess work as none of us know for sure if we are losing members to Tubes or Torrents, we assume we are. We did see a huge bounce in joins and a steadying of the revenue when we gave the option for a 3 day join. Either trial or just 3 days.

We also see more people opting for a higher priced non recurring membership. Is it people who would of bought a recurring and retained, people who would of bought a recurring and canceled which a lot do on all sites or would it of been people who would only join a non recurring site they will only buy what suits them?

All guess work and my guess is different from others and only a fool thinks it's the same answer. Different sites have different answers. Our Retro Video is converting at higher prices than the teen paysite.

What we have seen in the last few months and not just us, is a complete collapse of the content market. At a time when sites should be adding more they are adding less or nothing. AFS is spot on here members demand bigger and better members areas. Be it non or exclusive, so long as the members like it. It works.

We have some plans, which we will announce soon, to convert and retain more of the traffic we get. No point in going down the "more traffic" route when you can convert more of what you have already.