Im thinking of having embedded video on our next site, move them into it slowly. The economy is too fucked up to gamble and take a hit that might not be recoverable.

Theres 2 options:

1. Get some REAL action going against ILLEGAL tubesites. But since nobody seems to be able to, doesnt want to, or is to lazy to.. see point 2.
2. Get everyone to embed and promote from the few LEGAL tubesites offering sponsorvideos. And dont even get a trade going anymore to ANYBODY offering illegal videos on his website.

As long as we all keep promoting illegal tubesites, and send them our traffic while fucking ourselfs over the illegal tubes will get more and more traffic.
Why not make it attractive for websites/webmasters to embed legal videos, AND stop sending illegal tubes our traffic?

I'm on the fence right now, will probably get rid of downloadable clips altogether on my new site. I worked too hard over the last month and a half shooting it to let it show up on a tube site within days of launching.

And that is why guys like Shap are caught in a bind. They simply have too much to lose. But at the same time they see what's happening to them.

It really sucks. And it just came down to a time and place for me personally where I was seeing diminishing returns by not doing anything. The bigger sites that have been around a while have a HUGE member base that dwarfs me. So the risk is much bigger.

Hell, we all have 60%+ of members rebilling that don't even remember they joined. But that 40% who do come in regularly are a precious commodity.

For a site like Mandy's or Claudia's...it's not quite that much of a gamble.

The guys who join our sites are faithful to the girl.

But a big generic site full of hundreds of girls who don't interact with the membership? That's another animal there.

Guys like Shap have a LOT more to lose. My personal thought is that if those big mega-sites started switching over they would begin building business again. But the odds of it happening with such a huge rebill amount on the line are slim.

Can't blame them one bit. But at the same time, it's putting a long term hurting because of slow new growth. It's really a Catch-22 for them.

Naughty America has been one of the most hurt by the tubes and torrents.

I've promoted them since they started out as Socal Cash.

Always made great money with them. Until the last year.

Now I'm 1:5,763 ratio with them.

And the kicker is...they have never had better content and better sites than they do now. Their stuff is the best out there in my opinion. And yet, no matter what I do...I can't make a sale with them. Oh, I keep trying. My surfers on my TGP's love their stuff. But they don't buy it. They just use me to pinpoint what they want, and then go and download it from a torrent. :(

Yea, skate for life!

good point,you would think the really big players would pay some college kid part time 10 bucks a hour.Just to surf tubes and torrents to find their stuff.

The guys at removeyourcontent.com (as you know) do a fantastic job already. They have the learning curve down as far as who runs what and how to get stuff down quick.

But even that can be a daunting task. There are just so many damn torrents and tubes out there.

And of course there are surfer forums with mile long threads dedicated to specific girls and where the latest uploaded torrent file can be found.

There are threads about Claudia-Marie, Sara Jay, Daphanae Rosen, Kelly Madison, Puma Swede, etc. (I'm only highlighting the big tit ones because that's our niche on Claudia-Marie) And there are THOUSANDS of them full of where to find everything these girls have done for FREE.

Yeah, some of our early stuff still pops up out there. Somewhere there is a guy in this world uploading a 2007 or early 2008 Claudia-Marie vid right now. But they aren't getting our new ones. And removeyourcontent finds those old ones as expediently as possible and gets them down. :)

That's why I hired them instead of just putting a grunt to work on it.

Since Aussie Rebel and I have buried the hatchet I will use removeyourcontent.com if I ever have any that gets stolen. :winkwink:

Few markets are driven by giving things away for free. If you think it works and going to tell me about TV, go check your cable bill. You pay for your TV viewing today and it only worked for a short time as "free". The problem is when the costs of part of a service are so heavy that it becomes viable to give the product away to get away from that cost.

The cost of traffic has made it viable for sites who don't have this cost to give away the content we are forced to sell to get the traffic they get for free. We are forced, willingly maybe, to charge members around $30 for a months membership so we can pay for the traffic we need to get that price. Do all sites warrant a 30 day membership or do all members want a 30 day membership? I would say the answer in many cases is no. But we have to charge it to pay the cost of traffic.

Tubes don't have that cost and can steal, beg, borrow or share content for free and profit off the meager sign ups from dating, cams and the few paysites that operate. And our reaction is to sit and moan on board after board because we are unable to compete. It has nothing to do with the cost of content, even Twistys which has some of the best content around still spends way more on traffic. Tubes exist and flourish because we as an industry do little but moan and refuse to change the way we work, while clinging on to the dream we will sue Tubes or locking down content will bring their demise.

The only thing that will bring their demise is to win back some of the 0.05% of their surfers who spend money to our sites and make Tube sites unprofitable to operate. Even legal ones with 20 minute clips.

Or sit on GFY and moan and dream it makes a difference.

remove your content is excellent,they provide a level of customer service very rare in our industry.

i fapped to the new ones yesterday.

and you really believe that a politician is going to want to be associated with your company. Good luck

btw in the case of CP they report it to the authorities in that country to be handled by that countries laws. The problem with doing the same thing in the case of copyright infringement is that the laws are not as draconian in countries like sweden and canada.

Troll, you are SO full of shit. :1orglaugh

Have you read Chris Anderson`s book `The Long Tail`....its a great read. Thanks for that article link.

1. Hell will freeze over before that happens.
2. Will not work, they will just buy cheap DVDs and rip them. Plus hell will freeze over before all sites embed video.

Stop thinking you're "sending" traffic to Tubes, legal or not. The members who were buying are not being sent anywhere. They go of their own free will.

Very true. But after 5 pages has anyone come up with a solution that works? Suing them is a joke and locking down content is a dream.

There is only one way to take them down, make them unprofitable. Until we figure out how they will stay. Maybe my idea will not work, maybe it will. Time will tell if enough try it.

The only reason why nothing is done about this is because the very people who's expected/supposed do to something about is the people running the tubes..

Yes, but your not listening

Paul, why is sueing them so hard.
Forgive me for not knowing, but i really dont understand how people sue other because the microwave didnt tell them NOT to put a hamster in it to dry, but sueing someone over theft is that big of a problem.

Not joking, dont want to offend you, but i really dont know.

I can answer that one for you...

I work 10 hours a day MINIMUM. Many days it's more like 12 to 14 hours a day. I have an attorney that fucking bills me everytime he so much as drops me an email. I've spent over $6,000.00 on my attorney and he's never even done anything for me other than help me file a couple of trademarks.

To actually take legal action against someone...and to do it correctly would first mean you get a good assfuck from your own lawyer. Then you better be prepared to basically not do any work for a couple of years.

And then when it's all said and done...you are going to have your case presented to a judge. And guess what? Judges are elected officials. And they can NOT be seen as "soft" on something so horrible as pornography.

So do you really think that exposing yourself as a pornographer to the govt., letting your business die because of the time you have to spend on legal action, paying your attorney all of your damn money, and then STILL being fucked by the govt. via a judge is worth it?

I don't. Better to just protect your stuff, hire a company to take your stuff down, and beat the fuck out of the first torrent site owner I see.

i now accept legal tube sites @ http://flvhunt.com

shouldn't that link go to the submission page instead of the surfer search page.

This whole "fuck the tubes" is just like being stuck in a time warp back in 1997 when everyone was freaking out about tgp/mgp. Either figure out how to make money with them, protect your assets better, or just get the fuck out of the way so those folks that know how to adapt and prosper can make some money.

Dean - love your work, but besides being a racist (do you ever tell anyone to "shut his white mouth") and a loose cannon how long have you been running sites? Maybe you should ask Shap for advice because it is pretty apparent to me that he knows his way around that terrain and could tell you how to profit on tubes.

You can encrypt your content or make it stream blah blah and they will just hack that and get the video and then make it available... Nothing you can do other than go after the people doing it.

Why this industry doesn't have some sort of fund for such a thing like any other industry does I don't know.

You, and everyone else need to STOP THINKING LIKE THIS.

As far as I know, I'm one of (if not the only) person who has hard figures on video theft from member's areas.

In the example of Raven Riley, where members were viciously faithful, excluding blatantly stolen accounts, the only members that stole and rapidshare'd, torrented and tubed the content were the members of 6 months or more.

Seems members get a weird sense of ownership about a site and content - ergo - you're just as much, if not more at risk.

oh my bad.

http://flvhunt.com/submit/form.php

here you go.

If BVF has a black mouth - then he should keep it shut. If he has a white mouth, then I apologize for telling him to keep his black mouth shut.
Just because I said he had a black mouth (which he does) does not make me a racist. No more racist then him telling me to keep my white hole shut :thumbsup

In regards to running sites - what does that have to do with anything? You don't have to run sites to have an opinion about tubes just like you don't have to be a photographer to have an opinion about content.

In regards to being a loose cannon, yea...your probably right. When a hater starts fucking with me, there's no telling what I'm going to say. If that makes me less of a man then you....I can live with that :thumbsup

Which means you misread what I said. What I said was...When I protect my content, my members are faithful to us. They aren't so much interested in some kind of mass download of our entire site. They are faithful to the girl. Much more so than a big generic site that feautures the same 20 girls as all of the other generic sites. And how you could somehow be one of the few guys with "hard figures" on video theft is amazing to me. Especially since there are tens of thousands of torrents out there. But if you say so...

I started leaving the keys in my car now, cause well... they will just jimmy the locks, and break the ignition anyways, so really why bother?

...and what I'm saying is:

- Even if your content is protected, you're not changing the level of faith amongst your members. The members you'd assume to be the most 'faithful', ie, the ones with accounts of 6+ months, are the ones that are stealing, torrenting, tubing, rapidsharing the content.

- I wrote software that tracked stolen and redistributed videos back to the member, IP, time and date. Cross referencing that information with that of literally thousands spidered videos on torrent sites, rapidshare, forums and usenet with the member database, and finding the above stated correlation, I'd say that I've got fairly hard data.

You don't have to believe me, and I did come off more beligerant in my original post than intended - I'm simply trying to offer some insight into what seems to be a logical, but incorrect assumption.

Sorry this thread has gotten off topic a few times with my haters.
Can't post an opinion without haters having a field day with it. :Oh crap

Those kind of suits are done by obnoxious attorneys that do stuff on contigency - and even that kind of law suit can take years and years and have tons of costs for filings, copies fof briefs, etc. Copyright and trademark enforcement is expensive. The burden of proof is on the producer and the outcome is never certain, even if you and I both say it should be obvious who the guilty party is.

I'm very aware of who stole what from me. And when I confronted them and explained what was really going on...every one of them were shocked, well at least as shocked as I could tell via email. And my point is...they CAN'T steal my shit and upload it anymore. And the true members...the ones who didn't join JUST to download everything are faithful to the girl and remain members whether they can download it or not. That was my whole point.

It was easier for me to go encrypted streaming with a loyal following for Claudia-Marie than it is for a big generic site that has been around for years and has a much bigger member base from all those years who rebill. For them it's a much more scary proposition.

I am not saying you aren't entitled to an opinion - just that if you had sites then your opinion might be different than what the herd of lemmings are saying. I know for a fact that plenty of people are figuring out how to make money with tubes.:winkwink:

In regards to the rascism comment - the fact is I have seen you use much more thoughtful critical words when engaging some of your other "haters" and just for the record - I am not a hater. I am just someone that happens to be part black and you won't understand why that is a rascist comment unless you stand for a minute in my air jordans.

Nothing wrong with being a loose cannon for the record. You speak your mind and if people don't like what you have to say then so be it. In your case, you have actually earned the right since your work speaks for itself. I have been called the same many times. :thumbsup

i could actually see that happening.

The only person that I was trying to offend was BVF. If my comments offended you, I'm truly sorry. My haters bring out the worst in me...and sometimes my words cut a little too deep. For a hater, I could care less if they are offended... but for others - it was never my intention to offend anyone but BVF.

My challenge for 2009 is to figure out how to deal with all the talentless haters that frequent my threads to draw attention to themselves :thumbsup

wow, that's sucks dean! good luck overcoming your challenge!

:thumbsup:thumbsup

Well thank you very much. Actually, I should clarify...that is only one of my challenges for 2009. I do have others :thumbsup

have any sites tried adjusting prices down to deal with the economy/competition?

we cut our prices and are very pleased with the results

Rise above them Dean, and use the ignore function. You know you have talent.

But I am. OK maybe I missed the idea that will turn it around for the industry, maybe I don't think it will work for the industry. But I will listen and will reply.

This I do know. For the industry to go your model, taking a single girl and producing a site of her, is a non starter. The reasons are many but the underlying reason is there are not enough girls worth signing up exclusive who will generate enough money to pay her what she would earn non exclusive. Plus few webmasters would want to put their business into the hands of models.

Don't tell me about the few sites that make it work, most of those guys can't afford to open another exclusive contract girl site. They've asked me how much and I tell them what the girls earns free lance. THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT.

Putting different girls into a site on live web cam could work though. Maybe making the membership experience more than just a way to watch videos is a route to take.

Locking down content is a joke and I doubt if it could be done and I know that a lot of sites will not do it and DVD content is still in the shops.

Thanks for answering mrfrisky.

Robbie and Far-L explained it. All they missed was after getting the guy in court and spending a fortune to get there the Tube site will claim exemption under DMCA and your money is lost. This is assuming the guy is in the US and taking down content when you notify him.

The actual fact that people can suggest lawyers and lock down as solutions to Tubes, after 2 years, is a testament to how little they understand the legal process and business. Many sponsors will not spend a couple of hundred dollars a month to get Remove Your Content, spending thousands a month on lawyers is not going to happen.

Yes getting Remove Your Content to hound them with DMCA's is good, but not the solution as they will use content from other sites. So they stay in business and keep taking members away.

And that's the real problem. Members going to Tubes prefer Tubes to us. To win them back we have to make them prefer us to Tubes. It's simple to say but takes hard work and investment to achieve. Here's what is needed.

Better content inside the members area. Yes they will still try to steal it, but protecting it is worth while. Stop thinking that content is something anyone can produce and start respecting the product that brings people to you to spend money.

Make members areas more than just an easy way to download/view videos. That's what Tubes are. Give them free webcam, dating, live chat and make the members area more of a club feeling. Will not appeal to everyone but can be done.

Price and membership packages need to be more flexible to suit the members needs and not ours. If I want a 30 minute jerk off tonight I will not join a 30 day membership to get it. I might take a 3 day membership though. Or I will find a site that gives what I need and not what they need.

The days of forcing surfers to buy are gone, we now have to start real marketing and selling. Spending 30% on getting thousands of people to a site and 5% on converting and keeping them are over. You know what I mean so no flaming the figures. We spend too much on "free loaders" and not enough on "customers".

Often the problem is the haters know they don't have his talent.

Here are some tips to making the members areas more worth joining.

Add more content. If you have to shoot it yourself then you have to, if you can't afford to then you have a problem.

Make the content better and different from the thousands of other scenes being offered on Tubes. Tell models you will not accept faked scenes, faked moaning, faked orgasms and chat that's boring. Most guys who buy porn are over 35 and do not want to pay for something that is obviously faked. Do a casting and tell the girls it's for your own site and you can't sell faked content, customers don't want it.

Think of a scenario that is more inventive and more than a "girl on a sofa". Make the start of the scene mean something and when the sex starts remind the viewer of why they're fucking or doing what ever. And then make it about what the models are feeling and less about genitalia. I don't want to see her pussy all the way through. I want to see her cumming for real and screaming at the camera for me to join her. And it needs to be real.

If you can't do that you can't shoot porn. And yes you can vary it around to your style. Dean will shoot it a different way to BVF and I will shoot it different to them.

Because the days of shooting content on the basis we are today are over. The biggest problem in surfing Tubes for porn is finding good porn on them. Most of it is bad porn. Sell good porn and more will stay.

There are more ways to keep people signing and keeping them when they have signed and we're guilty of faking some of our scenes. Eva needed to kick a few out. LOL

If you add DRM and lose 20% of members but rebills increase by 30%, and conversions by 15% because your content isn't everywhere, then what have you lost?


Think about the flipside of the numbers before you worry about 'pissing off' some of the members.


The fear of 'pissing off' members has always been a problem in the industry. The buck has to stop somewhere.

but if you lost 40% of your members but rebills increase by only 15% and our conversion goes up by 10% you will lose money.

pulling numbers out of your ass is not a good way to do business. You need to know what the consequences of your change before you make it.

Is fucking the tubes similar to a fleshlight? I haven't tried either.

http://www.slideshare.net/gleonhard/...ype=powerpoint

or you could just shift your business model to leverage the "piracy"

95% of them are going under... that's fine... but the rules of money still apply in adult as it does the rest of the world. 2% of the industry make 98% of the money. So the big tube sites are making money, and the little ones go away... doesn't really help the legit content producers.

i wuz hereee