I agree with what Paul posted but I would go a little further and say that if we keep exporting our manufacturing base and keep offering H1B Visas instead of educating our own people... the US is a goner.

Out of our 9 trillion in national debt, 8 trillion of it came under Reagan's watch and George W Bush's watch.

The people screaming out now about the cost of Obama's plans aren't concerned about the deficit or debt per se, they're just pissed off about what the money is being spent on.

If we were adding 5 divisions to the U.S. Army or 5 fighter wings to the Air Force or new aircraft carriers or a missile defense system or doubling the size of the CIA or NSA with the money they'd be all for it regardless of the long term economic consequences.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth... I still stand behind what I said. I am not predicting anything it is his plan.

http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/u...s/image002.jpg

Obama's plan adds over 2 trillion to this, this year alone.

The point is it has to stop. Obama is continuing the same trend. You're right it has been going on for many years.

http://www.concordcoalition.org/file...nuary_2009.jpg

http://www.concordcoalition.org/learn/federal-budget

Peter Schiff There will be no change with Barack Obama

The United States of Madoff



Be a part of the solution and not a part of the problem

I use <sarcasm></sarcasm> tags all the time.

I put no words in your mouth, I merely asked you a followup question which was based exactly on what you said.

Your earlier post did seem a lot like you are putting the whole of the debt blame on what the current president hasn't done yet, and you completely neglected to include the part about the debt that the last government accrued. How exactly again did I put words in your mouth dear?

Like I said, money is going to have to be spent in order to bring about all the magical "change" everyone keeps crying about because it isn't here yet.

I'd add a "duh!" in right about here but it seems sort of self-evident at this point.

And you can throw all the vids of big talking critics and pundits all you want and hide behind them, but if you're unwilling to come out and flat-out state what YOU think things are going to be like in 8 years then you best move along, you're wasting time (yours mostly). You come off like you know some key piece of secret knowledge the rest of us don't all the while using the opinions of others, passing those opinions off as fact, and never sharing your own, save to fall in line behind your "speakers" who you obviously worship.

Again like I said, I'm more of an I'll believe it when I see it kind of thinker, at least when it comes to "how things are gonna be" nearly a decade from now. I want predictions, educated if possible, not dressed up psuedo-facts from the hideously biased about how the mess we're all in is actually his fault even though he hasn't been president for one full work week yet.

People please, get a grip.

I don;t have any secrets I'm paying attention and putting 2=2 together.. Spending money you don't have increases your debt. We've already done enough of that. The many bail outs we've already given out obviously didn't work because they are already coming back for more. We're essentially funding the entire US off of credit cards. Right now is an important time where we can either put an end to it or we continue on the same destructive path. We can go one of two ways and we'll here's where my predictions come in..

We keep borrowing and spending to get out of debt within a debt based system which will do nothing but make the doom and gloom scenarios come true. Or we can put an end to the madness once and for all and create a sound monetary system. Right now it's nothing but a control mechanism. Giving the government more control of more or less everything in our lives doesn;t sound like a good plan to me..

You know, when you drop all the conspiracy bullshit and just speak from the heart you actually show a ray or two of sense.

However, all that is just basically stating the obvious. Anyone paying attention can or at the very least should be able to see that things are starting to collapse. If 10+ million mortgages being forclosed on in the US and hundreds of thousands of layoffs from large companies isn't a warning sign I don't know what is.

You and one or two others seem adamant that Obama is not only going to NOT do much to fix the problem but he will actually make it worse, while others in this thread seem convinced that his plan(s) will make things better. Still others are at least willing to give him a chance, adopting the "wait and see" attitude (which is kind of where I'm sitting).

Who is right? I guess we'll see in 4, maybe 8 years.


Too bad at the end of that time we won't be able to see how McCain would have done had he won, as a comparative.

Sweetie you just let me know how far back you want to go and we can have a discussion about history and politics. I love it.

My understanding was you asked about Barack. I think the initial bailout was a mistake and has put this country on a very slippery slope. The free market should adjust itself. Borrowing money to protect the asses of corrupt politicians and greedy ceos is not going to help the American people. Of course we are already having trouble accounting for the first 350 billion that was given out like candy. Then you have politicians already dipping their hands into the pot to use the money for unintended purposes. On that note the current president could put an end to this madness but instead his policies will continue this policy of borrow and spend.

I'm sure in 8 years we can have some sort of computer matrix that will simulate what McCain would have done and where we'd be. :upsidedow

Follow along here lambchop, the topic is 4-8 years in the f-u-t-u-r-e, ie: not the past.

What does the initial bailout have to do with Barack? He wasn't in power when it was decided.

So if I'm reading you correctly, and...I think that I am... I take it you're in the "there will be no real change/the country will be worse off at the end of 8 years of Obama" camp then?

Or... am I again putting words in your mouth? :winkwink:

Aw come on... He's not running the country alone. A rational political predicion is impossible.

On the other hand, if you want me to use my psychic powers, I say ... We're pretty screwed for the next 20 years thanks to the previous administrations.

You're only looking at it from one angle though. You see a plan for Obama to spend one trillion, and get upset. If you look back to Clinton's administration, he spent a fuck ton as well. However the national debt decreased and we had a federal surplus instead of a deficit.

I don't want to start a party debate here. However Republicans tend to spend money without revenue. Meaning the Federal budget is spent on things with no return value. This is what adds to the debt. They also tend to over spend, meaning they spend more than the Federal Budget provides. This adds to the deficit.

Democrats tent to spend money on things with return value. Meaning that money that is spent, create revenue for the people or country. Our debt goes down. By doing so, they can also create a larger federal budget that exceedss their spending. Meaning they're spending less money than their budget. This creates a surplus in the budget instead of a deficit.

Now I know after the last eight years, you see a politician spending an enormous amount of money and get upset. This spending is not the same as Bush's. These are short term boosts, and long term solutions to help the country. You also have to understand, while Obama is working on this "stimulus package" to spend money. At the same time he will be making a ton of cuts to other programs and their spending. Creating a balance for this trillion dollar stimulus package. This is not the same spend money that isn't there bullshit we have seen for the past eight years.

:thumbsup

I hope this helps a little to open some peoples eyes a little. All this information is available if you simply search for it, and do so from credible sources. :2 cents:

The deficit/national debt is all bullshit. EVERY penny taken in from taxes is spent on interest to the owners of the federal reserve before one cent is spent on public services. This is why our deficit spending keeps increasing. By adding more spending to it we increase the debt owed to them. We could eliminate the root of the problem (federal Reserve) and their debt based system with $400 billion but the powers that be, Obama included, won't tell you this because they are protecting the system. It's all a scam period.

Yeah this is money well spent and a boost to the economy

Pelosi: Contraception is Good Stimulus for the Economy
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-...e-economy.html

Great future planning there. When everyone is living off of welfare you can force contraceptives and who knows what else on them.

Where in this little $1 trillion bail out do they have plans for the next big real estate market to crash the commercial real estate? No where. That will be at least another few hundred billion down the road... It will never stop until we demand it to stop.

Clinton didn't pay off the national debt or control the deficits. He just changed the way the numbers were calculated.

The whole point to it all is we don;t have to have the Federal Reserve handling our nations money. It's a private company that charges us interest to create our money. We pay them to do nothing and they control us by doing this. In addition and contrary to popular belief ALL of these bail outs buying up assets aren't being held by the government. They are being held under private holding companies set up by the Federal Reserve. So we are giving them the power to buy up everything in the US and paying them to do it.

Still south of Canada?


http://img2.moonbuggy.org/imgstore/canadas-bitch.jpg

And not only will this private group of bankers hold the mortgages to your home, the loan to your business, etc, etc. With Barney's new proposed bill they can come in and tell you how to run your business.

Fed May Gain More Financial Oversight
Some Worry Plan Would Give Bank Too Much Power
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...012501686.html


Obama's righthand man Rahm Emanuel was one of the people behind the original bail out plan. Timothy (don't pay my taxes) Geitner was the Head of the NY FED which was responsible for doling out the original bailout plan. It's all the same people. If you keep doing the same things you've done you'll always get the same results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_F._Geithner Everyone on this board who's an American can use Turbo Tax and pay their self employment, but Obama's mom's friend here that he appoints to get us out of the recession can't?

Anyone who is a blind lemming Obummer follower just start reading Thomas Sowell's columns. http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell012709.php3 This one today is particularly telling of our future... it looks just like our past.

More was done during those years than merely "changing the way the numbers were calculated" and you know it. There was no kind of debt showing in '99 like there is now, or like there was in '93.

I'm not sure what you want everyone here to do about it. :D

Obama's going to spend money, we get it. Tell me, would McCain have halted all government spending? I doubt it. My question is do you think the country will be better or worse off after 8 years of Obama? You obviously think it's going to be worse, I get that too.

Anything new to add?

I just have trouble accepting when someone says any new debt that Obama racks up is going to be America's downfall all the while completely ignoring the existing debt which was as we all know compiled by you-know-who and co. It's... well... insufferably stupid really.

Yes yes, you're only the 8th person to say this, good one. It didn't get old by halfway down page 1 I swear. :D

The charts don't lie they are in this thread and well all over the web. Clinton didn't pay anything off. I agree Bush racked up a mountain of debt but you don't fix that problem by adding more debt. Obama's budget plan deficit this year alone is going to be 1/5 of the 10 trillion we already have. And this won't be the only bailouts for the year. Once they figure out that their plan didn't work we'll be right back at the drawing table again months down the road. If it even takes that long. My guess is Feb March when the Retail market starts tanking.

Then take into consideration commercial real estate market. In addition we'll have more and more residential home owners defaulting because of job losses. The whole excuse for all of the bailouts to begin with was suppose to be the real estate market but I don't see much of anything going in that direction. Of course that is because it's a complete lie to begin with. It was the derivatives that was the problem.

As far as what I want you and, well, everyone to do is get informed and pay attention to what these fuckwits are doing at every step because they aren't looking out for us no matter how they try to sell themselves. They are protecting their interest in controlling you, me, our money, lives and livelyhood. If enough people know what the fuck is up they'll recognize they can't play this game anymore.

onwebcam
This message is hidden because onwebcam is on your ignore list.

:glugglug

So Either:

A. You didn't read any of my post
B. You're simply ignorant of the subject
C. You're just closed minded and refuse to believe your opinion is wrong

:Oh crap Cannot believe I even bothered trying to explain this to you.

I know what you're trying to explain. You're trying to sell me on the same bullshit Obama is trying to sell Congress on. It's not going to work. THE PLAN IS NOT GOING TO WORK. That is my stance. It's going to do nothing but increase the debt and they'll be right back to the drawing table. Next month when the shit really starts to hit the fan they'll say "Oh it's going to take a while for the plan to work." In the mean time millions more jobs will be lost and more foreclosures both residential and retail.

You don't seem to get my point. They aren't going to the root of the problem which is the Federal Reserve fractional reserve central banking system and the second level of this same scam the CDO/CDS market. They ARE trying to keep this system afloat by running up debt to us and sure they can eventually level it out but at what cost to us and who really benefits?

As far as Clinton Bush etc It doesn;t matter because they ALL played a part in this and Obama is continuing it.

Oklahoma and Texas fans in the same country if they had a choice? helll nooooooo

How are they going to rack up debt? Explain this to me.

Definitely one of the bigger concerns. Chinese wages should keep rising, commodities should resume their bull run, the printing presses are running.

http://linkification.com/linked/base.jpg

McCain's budget would be similar to Obama's. The government budget hasn't decreased since 1965 and that was by less than 1%. Every year the budget increases 2-7% no matter who is president. It's been 20 years since government spending increased less than 2%. Last happened in 1987 after some really big increases in Reagan's first term.

The best thing for the debt is a strong stock market and during strong stock market years you see strong government receipts due to capital gains taxes. Look at the late 1990s stock market when capital gains taxes collected increased from $62 billion to $110 billion between 96 and 99. Capital gains taxes made up 6% of all government receipts in 99.

Money As Debt
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...74362583451279

The Federal Reserve/World Bank/IMF are the world's money changers.

Ok dude. I know the whole FR conspiracy. I know the whole, every dollar is loaned - with interest theory.

That doesn't equate to the actual subject at hand. Under your conspiracy theory, we're all fucked and no matter how much prosperity we see we're still puppets to the Federal Reserve.

Let's get off the loonie farm for a minute and get back to "Obama's 1 trillion stimulus package = more debt". If you want to argue that point, do so with some facts and references with substance and not you tube conspiracy videos.

You cannot just argue a topic with out relevant information or responses. Repeating yourself "omg it's teh conspiracays - i can reply post videos proof from youtubers!". It's just not an actual debate you're lying onto the table. You're just being a stubborn ass and saying. ""There is a conspiracy, that may or may not specifically relate to the discussion. I'm not going to provide any real insight or facts to the discussion. I'm just going to repeatedly post nonsense I found on youtube because I ate it up like pig on shit and have no capacity to think for myself.""

:2 cents:

If you want to actually debate specific facts and reliable information. I'm down. I'm not going to go back and forth with you any more if you're just going to post this youtube shit.

*google, youtube.. whatever. i made my point

What else do I need to explain? All banks and the mortgages/loans/bank accounts they hold are being consolidated into a small umbrella of companies which have been setup by the Federal Reserve (a private company). We already have $10+ trillion in national debt and we're adding at least 2.2 trillion to it this year and it's not even the end of January. This shit isn't a conspiracy theory. It's real shit happening in real fucking life. We have over $50 trillion worth of unfunded entitlements that start kicking in within the next year or two for baby boomers. Do you not see where this is going? Is it that hard to see?

The video I linked to gives you "elementary" explanation of what the problem is. If you don't want to watch it then you are not wanting to listen to what I'm telling you not the other way around. I already know the "other side" of the story I've been looking into this for a long time...

I went through the same thing with this asshat. Now all I see is this.

onwebcam
This message is hidden because onwebcam is on your ignore list.


Was a great decision IMHO.

500 years ago you could buy a nice outfit, shoes hat the whole set up for a gold coin. Today you can buy a nice out fit shoes hat the whole set up for a gold coin. 50 years ago you could buy a decent set of clothes with a $1. Today you can't even get a pair of socks. Fractional Reserve central banking and Keynesian economics are out of date and destroying us. It isn't sustainable.

Thanks for typing all that out for me. I've been just too busy (read: lazy) to make that much effort to educate the few who badly need it here, and you said it better than I would have.

Good post.