I am not versed enough in economics to know whether the spending is right or wrong. I know there are economists on both sides of the argument who feel strongly about it. We will find out one way or another in the coming years. Lets hope that it does work.

It isn't really a massive expansion of spending. We've been spending like this for the last 8 years. The difference being that under Bush the spending was for wars seen as mistakes and under Obama it's for domestic projects. I have no problem with people bashing unnecessary spending, but I do find it ironic to see people on the right side of the aisle take issue with it now. They didn't seem to care over the past 8 years when we doubled our national debt, but one month into a Demoratic President and the world is coming to an end.

I hate you but completely agree with you here. Regardless the Obama administration is handling this like a complete fucking amateur morons. There isnt a SINGLE thing they have done that will help the credit markets to get moving again(which would solve about 50% of the problem we have with company cash hording right now). They could nationalize the banks and weed out the bad ones or they could just let them fail, both are WAY better options than what they have done with this "stimulus" bill. The bill does nothing but delays some unemployment numbers, socialize more programs and lowers the value of American currency.

So I take it you dont like to make money by investing? So you have no bank account? You have no 401k? You have no mortgage? If you have none of those things then I will defer my argument, but I highly doubt you think capitolism is a bad thing.

You are the lowest form of intelligence, right below a snail. Dont you understand that anyone with average intelligence knows your statements are basically the ramblings of a semi retarded racist? Fuck you and the Bush you rode in on.

GO BAMA!

The problem is that the wealth you are talking about never really existed. It was a phantom economy. Packaging up a $20 bill and selling it over and over for profits. Nothing tangible was created, nothing of value.

So yes, people are getting destroyed right now. But these people also chose to invest their money into companies and products that were built on nothing. Companies that tried to make money on leveraging money they didn't have. It truly sucks for people, but hopefully it's a lesson in the future for people to research what they are doing with their money. These people lost money because they chose to blindly accept their big annual returns the last 10 years without taking a minute to think how they were doing it.

:2 cents:

Why left wing talking points? Your idiotic god fearing redneck righties were the ones who fucked our economy and now because Americans (even the dumb ones) realized that the country is too important to be ran by neo con artists.

Thank moses Mccain got his ass handed to him.

The problem with the Obama administration so far is that they don't understand that all that matters is the banks. The banks are EVERYTHING to this economy. Strong banks fix the unemployment problems which fix a ton of other things. They've been avoiding this problem while they ballyhoo over stimulus packages and rebate checks. What they don't realize is that none of it matters if the banks remain broken.

Yes many stupid decisions by many people on all levels from top of the government down to the average home buyer BUT those decisions and their outcome have screwed the entire world and Obama just put salt on an open wound by pushing a bill through congress that does nothing to help the problems, let me repeat this bill does NOTHING to help unfreeze the credit markets, or deleverage the massive debt out there. half the bill shifts the debt to the taxpayers and the other half of the bill is meant to make the Democratic party look like they are helping people so they stay in power.

I would incline to agree. But I'm not an economist so I don't think my opinion holds much weight. I do hope I'm wrong though and that they know what they are talking about.

Three words.

Universal Health Care.


And the unfortunate political reality is that it took the republitards fucking up this badly for a democrat to have the political capital to push something like that through.

No one is, that's why we have to listen to them all argue. Economists tell you what the economy is going to do based on some action, then afterwards they'll explain why it didn't work out that way.

FTR-I believe it was the Clinton admin that allowed the banks to start selling those insane mortgages to people.

The Bush White House pointed out in 2002 that they saw this as becoming a problem, but Congress did fuckall about it.

Not to be outdone by his predecessor, Bush allowed the credit lobbies to write their own regs before allowing them to become law.

There is plenty of blame to throw around, but the guy who's been on the job a month isn't one of them....yet.

Universal health care wont help you when the rednecks take you liberals to the back woods for some fun lol.

What a fucking joke, the world is going through a depression where most people will be lucky to eat and all this fucktard can think about is if he gets his health care free. Un-fucking-believable.

Agreed
 

Good points Lorenzo...although I have seen my 401k tank recently....and my stock from Motorola? Forget about it. I have had that since 2003...um..yeah. Not so much.

Bullshit, his "stimulus" bill just compounded the problem. The markets know that and investors and companies have reacted accordingly. Obama HAS made this problem worse.

You're really close to my ignore list dipshit.

Do you have anything relevant to add? I appreciate a good debate, I really do, but you're just driveling hateful nonsense that has no basis in reality.

The rednecks are going to take me to the woods for fun?
Would that involve sodomy or something to do with guns? You say shit like that and then expect people to take your views on economics and politics seriously?

FWIW, and not that it matters because you won't read it or reply with anything relevant or intelligent....universal doesn't mean free, it means universal. Nothing is free.

You would think that the party that champions entrepreneurship and small business would want to do something for all the people out there who want to start a new business but can't because if they left their job they'd lose their health care....or the person who wants to go work for a new small business but can't leave his job with a big company for the same reason.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

drop a dumb redneck in the middle of ghetto and lets see who gets taken out back. LOL fuck socially conservative faggots.

The forced loans were not the major problem. The major problem were banks like Washington Mutual (and to some degree Fannie and Freddy) giving loans to people they knew couldn't pay them (and the people who took them knowing they couldn't pay are equally responsible at this level) then packaging them up and selling them. The seller then resells them and that buy splits them up and sells them again and those buyers use these mortgages as a base for an investment portfolio. So there is tons of money generated from selling what will ultimately end up being a bad loan. The one that gets screwed is the last company caught holding the hot potato. Everyone downstream got their commission and made their money so they don't care. There were entire fortunes made based on these loans (as well as credit default swaps and the insuring of those swaps that went along with them) so when the loans went bad it brought it down like a house of cards.

Nobody held a gun to these banks heads and forced them to give out these loans, they did it simply for profit and they helped to set off a chain reaction.

There is plenty of blame to go around.

- blame the banks that willingly gave out these loans (not forced loans under that law, but subprime loans they did not have to give and gave anyway)
- blame the people who took the loans knowing they could not pay them back. Or who were not smart enough to ask how much their payments may go up when the fixed 5 year rate expires.
- blame people who watched 2 episodes of Flip That House and thought with a subprime loan they could be the next Trump only to get in at the wrong time and get stuck with a couple of houses they can't sell and can't pay for.
- blame greenspan for pushing banks and suggesting to everyone that they use a VAR loan because of the low interest rates.
- blame the republicans for their non-stop pursuit of deregulation.
- blame the democrats for not fighting the deregulation, for not working hard to put in some kind of oversight and for starting the ball rolling with their laws that created the forced subprime loans (while many of these loans are not the problem, they showed the way to the greedy and helped them gear up and sell them in mass)
- blame wall street for buying and selling loans they knew were bad in an effort to make a quick buck and not be the one caught with the loans when they went bad.

I'm sure there are many others to blame including banks and companies that begged for bailout money and spent it on stupid shit as well as banks who are unwilling to work with home owners to help them stay in the house with a refinance deal. instead they foreclose and bring the value of that house and all around it down.

Obama is basically trying the New Deal style of stimulus. He is hoping that his plan can create a decent amount of jobs to put people to work and that these jobs will last 1-3 years (depending on what the job is). By the time the job comes to end hopefully the economy will have rebounded and there will be more private sector jobs being created and these people can transition from the stimulus job into a private sector job. That said there is no excuse for some of the worthless pork crap spending that is in the bill.

Allow me to posit that the markets don't know shit, for if they had we wouldn't be here in the first place. They had a decade or more of deregulation and a free hand to do what they thought was best and we're in an economic meltdown that's gone global.

So either they're the dumbest motherfuckers making 9 figures, or they're just that greedy. Either way they've had their shot and they screwed up...HUGE. Now they want to say they know what's best for the markets? You go ahead and trust them.

Oh you mean nonsense like spending hundreds of billions of dollars on new social programs in order to "stimulate" the economy? Or maybe you mean nonsense like giving out billions to pork barrel projects stuffing it into the "stimulus" bill. Or maybe you mean nonsense like Obama swearing he wouldnt sign a bill with earmarks and then turning around and signing one. Or maybe nonsense like while the country is facing a decade long depression he is partying it up at the White... err I mean Black House.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...DV3cQD96M06J02

Medical bills are the number one reason people file bankruptcy these days. They are the number one reason people fall deeply into debt. You fix that issue for the middle class and it frees up a lot of money from people. More mortgages get paid, more credit cards paid, and banks have less strain. Health care reform isn't just about health, it's about the financial system and strengthening the middle class.

ROFL LMAO :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Just posting those words above tell me all I need to know about you and your arguments. Isnt it past your bedtime?

Mortgage and bank accounts are very different. I'm sure you know that. Regardless of how devalued a house may get, you still have the house in the end. Its just always been my opinion that any money you have in the stock market shouldn't be there unless you can afford to lose it.

401k's weren't always the way to invest for retirement. Its a risk and people should know that. I don't even think we have "401k's" in canada. I have RRSP's and GIC's both of which while may not gain very much when the market does poorly, don't lose anything when it does either. But no, I don't really like to make money by investing. Its too risky and while it can pay out big, it can also bust big.

Talking point quoted like a true socialist. No matter what you think I promise you someone will pay their mortgage before they pay their health care bills. Lol so let me get this straight you are of the opinion that fixing health care will help us in the least bit?

A few days ago they were saying on the news that the Obama team was going to "stress test" several banks to see if they were capable of sustaining themselves. Then there was a report that the government was about to buy up to a 36 percent share in Citibank. It looks like nationalization is just around the corner.

You and I both know if tomorrow Obama came out and said he was nationalizing all banks the republican party would collectively shit little green elk. At the same time if he said there will be no more money for any banks and we will see which ones fail and which survive the democrats (who can't stand to let anything fail) would do the same. He has to walk a tightrope here. Doing either of these things is a big, messy step. Maybe it is okay to take some time and make sure is the correct step.

Canada = socialism
Our conversation is done how can you even begin to know what capitalism is?

For the record every time you use the term White...err I mean Black House, you destroy any credibility you may have created with reasonable arguments.

So.... let me get this straight. Since Obama doesnt want to look like an ass he fucks the American people in the ass by passing a crap bill that doesnt even address the problems of our crisis? Gotcha.

What a cop out. :1orglaugh

Why is that? I dont like the fucking monkey. Oh and people called Bush a monkey so thats not racist unless of course you think black people look like monkeys and Bush is black as well? Fuck Obama he is just as crooked as the rest of them, hell even worse because while Bush lied to us behind our backs and tried to cover shit up Obama lies to our fucking face then pulls our hair back while fucking us saying "You like that dont ya white bitches!"

No seriously not a cop out you just out right dismiss my countrys success over the years. You just simply say well "see thats what you get for being capitalists". Thats not an argument sorry. If you understood what America is about you might be able to argue with me but I think you are too biased towards a socialist life.

So having a national health care system is the thing that makes a country socialist? Do you even know what socialism is? We crossed that bridge a couple centuries ago.

I understand you're all worked up but really, think about what you say. Where did i dismiss America's success? I love America and want to see its people be very successful. Too many people were dismissing the dangers of market bubbles and feeding that BS to the layman who doesn't have a clue and bam, there goes Johnnys college funds or Granny's retirement money. Neither of those people should of been playing with money they can't afford to lose.

To some degree I think it will. Take me for example. I have asthma and I can't buy health insurance that will cover anything asthma related (although if I lived in a different state I might be able to) so I pay for my medicine and any asthma related expenses out of pocket. If my health insurance covered asthma it would free up more money for me to spend each month on other things. Now I am the kind of person who would just put that money in savings or invest it in something, but others would use it to go out to dinner or buy other things. They would be putting that money back into their local economies and not into the pocket of a pharmaceutical company. If there are 20 million people who had a few extra hundred dollars per month to spend, it could be a nice little boost. It won't be huge, but it could be something.

Also the overall cost of medical care should drop because there will be far fewer people who don't pay. When someone goes to the hospital or doctor and doesn't pay that cost is passed on to those that do. Without those pass on costs the overall cost of healthcare should come down which will save people even more money.

Canada is a mix of a lot of things but the person was questioning capitalism and its success(which has been proven over time). Plus lets not mention the fact that Canada has a monarch, I mean come on how can an average Canadian citizen criticize capitalism when they cant even escape the British empire?

ad hominem attacks are a poor substitute for a lucid discussion.

Lol where do you think the money COMES FROM for universal health care? LOL
Seriously you guys are not that naive are you?

When you can partake in a lucid discussion let me know. :thumbsup

My point is that you claimed he either needed to nationalize the banks or cut them off and let the bad ones fail. I said it looks like he is moving towards nationalizing some of them and he is testing the waters. Maybe he will do something with them, maybe he won't, but he appears to be looking at it.

This has nothing to do with the stimulus bill. Sure, addressing the banks in the bill would have been great, but they didn't it looks like he looking at them as a separate issue. That is all I was saying. Cutting them off of nationalizing them is a big step and could have heavy ramifications. It could greatly effect what he is able to do in the future so I see nothing wrong with proceeding with caution.

How many years was it on Bushies watch think about it.