I think those that are supporting it and carrying it out are seeing it not as a taking over and controlling, but a temporary oversight. I think they see it as the government stepping in and helping out then eventually giving control back to the business. I guess we will see if that is really the case.

Re-read what I wrote (and quoted) above. I'm talking 2 out of 3 GM dealerships in our town - NOT Chrysler.

I really hope you are right, but I fear you are wrong. Lets keep our fingers crossed. I guess I am not so trusting.

i think you are a very bright and obviously well spoken person who clearly puts a lot of thought into what he says. however, i think anyone can see the basic problems with the federal government taking over private enterprise as they relate to a free market system.

"a shit sandwich",, "no one will happy no matter what" etc etc etc does not mean its ok to stage a takeover of private industry, ignore shareholder rights, break contracts, have politicians dictate business strategy and product lines and so on.

you certainly have to see the problems with that, no matter how liberal you might be. there is a massive difference between a loan and running the company... and having the audacity to think that a bunch of politicians can run it better than actual business people.

I, like you, am not very trusting as well. I hope I am right. Unfortunately it is one of those things where by the time you realize you are wrong you are fucked.

lets assume we are talking about adult friend finder (not a small company by any measure)

does it make sense to you that the federal government steps in and tries to run it? the the federal government take over cams.com and dictate to the company how it be run... approve and disapprove of plans and lay out some demands for products that cams.com and adultfriendfinder.com MUST produce in the future to be competitive? are they somehow qualified to over see its operations or make any decisions about what products fit their business model, much less are in demand by consumers?

that's not what competent management is. competent management is finding a great group of people and turning them loose to do their jobs. business people understand this. most liberal politicians don't.

I think something that is being overlooked (at least as far as the GM deal goes) is that they asked for this. It wasn't like Obama took office and then facilitated a hostile takeover of GM. GM came to the government looking for help and the government told they would help them under certain circumstances. GM has a choice in this matter. They could have turned the government down and either just folded the company or entered a bankruptcy in hopes of salvaging it (but without a large influx of capitol this no way of knowing how successful that would have been) or they can accept the government money and the terms of that. I see it as no different than if a large investor agreed to dump a ton of money into the company to rescue it. That investor would demand on control of certain things and that is what happened here. GM was free to walk away before this whole thing started, but they chose not too.

One thing we can both agree on is that politicians are not the best people to be running any company. While there are some elected officials who have been successful in business on their own, many of them are really only good at getting elected and they know little or nothing about actually running a company. I agree with you that they should have brought in qualified people and let them run the show.

I put this in my other post but will restate it here. I agree with you that politicians and elected officials are not the best options when it comes to running a company. Many of these people have no idea how to run a company and should not be doing so. As you say the best way to do it would be to get competent management in place and let them run the show.

That said if we are using the example of AFF it wouldn't be like Obama one morning woke up and decided to overtake AFF. AFF would have had to have gone to them and asked for money to keep their company afloat then the government would have to approve giving the money and would attach certain stipulations to that agreement. If AFF wants the money they have to agree to the stipulations. They would be free to turn the money down. Ford did and nobody is telling Ford what to do. I'm not saying that how the government may run some of these companies is correct, I'm just saying the companies can't all of a sudden be pissed. They took the money so they knew what they were getting into. It is kind of like if you meet a crazy chick and take her to bed. You know since she is a little sideways she is going to be great in bed, but in the morning she is still crazy and now you have to deal with that.

I think you are assuming that the companies were aware that there were strings attached as a condition to the loan before they accepted the loans. I'm not so sure they knew and I haven't seen anything stating that they knew. Please correct me if I am wrong.

i'm not suggesting anyone is angry. or what right they have or don't have to be angry. i'm saying its totally, 100% absurd that the federal government would take over a company like GM and act like they know how it should be run, as if they understand the business, understand business at all, understand the market, the consumer, the long term and short term strategies, the visions, the changing market, the coming threats from other companies, the changing future and so on and so forth.

There is a difference between loaning money to a company... and basically taking over control of it. a key difference which you seem to be ignoring.

You are ignoring the simple fact that the Obama Administration is dictating to them how it will be run, what their future will be etc. Not allowing management to make that decision. That is what i am talking about. That... and that alone. That simple fact contradicts everything this country stands for and was built on and no one in their right mind can expect the federal government... much less the auto unions of all things are more qualified to run the company than people from the auto industry. The federal government just took over a private enterprise and is running it. The federal government just took over a private enterprise, is running it "as a shareholder" ... whoever the "shareholder" is... since it was your money and my money that bought the shares and is using that position to implement government policy.. such as fuel standards and using government making large orders of cars the market clearly doesn't want when gas is cheap "to boost sales" of those vehicles.

50 government take overs of private industry.

Nice

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn...c.php?t=555566

GM says bankruptcy won't hurt Olympic sponsorship



VANCOUVER, British Columbia (AP) -- General Motors says filing for bankruptcy protection will have "no impact" on its sponsorship of the 2010 Winter Olympics.

GM has committed more than $60 million to the Games, mostly in the form of cars and trucks, though roughly $12 million is in cash.

"There will be no impact on our sponsorship of the Winter Games," company spokesman Stew Low said via e-mail Monday. "We are fully committed to our support."

Low wouldn't say how much has already been handed over to Olympic organizers and how much is yet to come, but he did confirm that parts of the sponsorship, including some vehicles, are not yet delivered.

Olympic organizers said they're confident GM will deliver on its sponsorship commitments.

"Over the past several days, our senior executives have been in regular communication with our partners at GM Canada Ltd. who have reaffirmed their support for the 2010 Winter Games," Renee Smith-Valade of the Olympic organizing committee e-mailed.

"GM has been an exceptional partner and has met all of their commitments to date, both financial and value in kind."

I agree fully with the idea that the government is not qualified to run the company and that they don't know what it takes to run a company like this. If they decided to help the company out I can fully understand that they would want some changes and some assurance that every possible step would be taken to make the company viable again. I also think if they were not happy with the current management they should have gotten other qualified people to run the company, not just some politician who thinks he knows what is best.

I have to admit that I don't know the details of the deal. I assume there was information in there about what they would do and what steps the government would take once they infused all the money into the company, but I don't know for sure what they were or were not told.

Flashing back to about 29 years ago, let my good friends Arlo Guthrie, Pete Seeger and Tom Paxton bring you up to date...

---------------------------
Oh the price of gold is rising out of sight
And the dollar is in sorry shape tonight
What the dollar used to get us
Now won't buy a head of lettuce
No the economic forecast isn't right

But amidst the clouds I spot a shining ray
I can even glimpse a new and better way
And I've devised a plan of action
Worked it down to the last fraction
And I'm going into action here today

CHORUS:
I am changing my name to Chrysler
I am going down to Washington D.C.
I will tell some power broker
What they did for Iacocca
Will be perfectly acceptable to me
I am changing my name to Chrysler
I am headed for that great receiving line
So when they hand a million grand out
I'll be standing with my hand out
Yes, sir, I'll get mine

When my creditors are screaming for their dough (for their dough)
I'll be proud to tell them all where they can all go
They won't have to scream and holler
They'll be paid to the last dollar
Where the endless streams of money seem to flow (seem to flow)

I'll be glad to tell them what they can do (they can do!)
It's a matter of a simple form or two
It's not just renumeration it's a liberal education
Ain't you kind of glad that I'm in debt to you

CHORUS:
I am changing my name to Chrysler
I am going down to Washington D.C.
I will tell some power broker
What they did for Iacocca
Will be perfectly acceptable to me
I am changing my name to Chrysler
I am headed for that great receiving line
So when they hand a million grand out
I'll be standing with my hand out
Yes, sir, I'll get mine

Since the first amphibians crawled out of the slime (of the slime)
We've been struggling in an unrelenting climb
We were hardly up and walking before money started talking
And it's sad that failure is an awful crime
Well it's been that way for a millenium or two (um or two)
But now it seems that there's a different point of view
If you're a corporate titanic and your failure is gigantic
Down to congress there's a safety net for you

I'm changing my name to Chrysler...

------------------------------

And anyone who thinks the current bail-out is going to save these unrelenting failures is a fool.

QFT.... :2 cents:

I love my Denali