You can continue to keep showing how little you know and you can continue to berate me... but the FACT is that the bill (and all bills) are available on opencongress.org from their introduction... just because you don't follow things as closely as I do doesn't mean you are stupid... just ignorant of the actual facts.

I don't understand why the transparency sites would make the Patriot Act any less of a good example, unless of course, you are saying that they didn't follow the proper procedure before the transparency sites existed.

yes.. Ive been to 4 other countries

The rules were followed then too... they can't get around them. It was the same thing then as they are saying now... "I didn't get to read the bill"... That is bullshit. I am just saying that I can't verify that what they were saying is true because these sites were created AFTER the Patriot Act was already passed and the Patriot Act isn't on those sites (as far as I can see). The bottom line is that they can't introduce a bill for vote unless each side has sufficient time to review the bill and debate it. So if they say that they didn't get to read the bill before vote... that is bullshit. If they did that the opposition and every government watch organization would SUE.

BTW... Kucinich said he read the Patriot Act during a Democratic Debate last spring... if he read it then why couldn't anyone else?

Stop whining and invest in the solar panel industry. When you are creating your own clean electricity it's a win-win. Change is hard, but not impossible. We've been doing nothing for way too long. Time to wake up from the oil haze we've all been hiding under.

Long live Republicans! We had outdone ourselves during the last 8 years. You liberal morons enjoying the world's best economy because of us republicans. There is no such thing as global warming.. it's just a figment of your imagination. And fuck! We DO NOT need alternate energy sources. Just put Bush back in power and watch how he makes Iran supply us with oil for eternity.. so we failed to do the same in Iraq.. we learnt from our mistake, now we just need to invade Iran that we should have to begin with and will be the answer to all our problems!

You faggot liberal black ass kissers can now just watch Obama get impeached! Yes, just watch..

Ah, do you really exect me to discuss legislative acts with you on gfy?
You must be kidding, right?
You post shit you don't understand and spew crap from HP like you were some kind of educated tree fucker...

The situation is simple, Obama is even dumber than Dubya, only difference is that some people thinks that barry can deliver a speech, I don't think so myself, he just looks like an arrogant donkey that he is.

Now you can insult me all you want, I'll just go back to enjoying my capitalist earned $$$ :321GFY

Wow... really? Are you the bastion of intelligence in your village or do they leave the thinking to someone else?

Sarcasm.

No... I don't have that much faith in your ability to portray anything resembling an educated discussion because it doesn't involve beer or tits.

Yeah... educated people DO fuck trees... Who knew??? :Note

That is the funny part of your positions... if it were up to conservatives... you wouldn't be making a dime in porn. :2 cents:

You are so pathetic, it's funny :1orglaugh

Really? How so? Put your money where your mouth is and tell me how I am pathetic in educated terms rather than the veiled racist and psuedo hillbilly terms you usually use. :pimp

It's pseudo and hillbilly I am not:2 cents:

pseudo: Thanks for clearing that up. :winkwink:

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Shit, I forgot to put directfiesta in the tags. Sorry

Yeppers... it's a bill attached to several ideas/theory. The idea of GW and other ideas issues that the bill covers, is nothing more than a trend attached to another bill, to help it pass.

Just like with Bush, add patriotism, tanks, 9/11 to a bill or even a gov grant, and it would go through. Follow the trends and your bills get passed.



Yeppers, the Republicans did an amazing job, hell even the last what, 16 years? Yeah, we have to ignore the biggest dept in history, mas war crimes, all the lies told, total rip of our civil liberties, a totally trash economy, mass deregulations, the largest rip off of money in history, and much more... but all that stuff is the minor details to the greater good.



Good point... Really proves something...

On the front page I stated "Did you call / write your congress person and tell them not to support the bill?"

Your statement proves how many of the "haters" in this thread, never spoke up in the first place.... or they aren't American.

oh no no no no.... its not about "climate change"... he's been very clear when cornered about the obvious devastating consequences this will have for middle/low income people ... "this is a job creation bill"

if the issue of the day was Emperor Penguins in the Brooklyn Zoo... it would be a penguin bill and everyone would still applaud the courage of a fucking jackass who has nothing to offer but a nice smile and great speaking skills.

some reading material for nation-x

http://sunlightfoundation.com/pressc...nd-trade-bill/

http://readthebill.org/cases/

haha.. some of you fucking idiots claiming you read the bill? really? when? its something like 1300 pages and 300 pages were added friday night (which were read on the house floor by the minority leader so people would have some concept of what they were voting for).


now we have a new phrase - Obamatards

i've lived i thailand. the only news i care about there is the bit of news where i live in a plush serviced apartment, work my ass off, go fuck whores as a tourist spending cash, people smile to my face even though we both know they don't like me, i keep my head down and my nose clean and everyone ignores me while i ignore them ... and we are all on the same page... regardless of which group of fucking clowns is trying to overthrow the government of the moment.

:winkwink:

Hey liberal Obama cock sucking assholes......................... i told you so

So many great new t-shirt slogans get posted on this board.

This one rocks.

Well, thank god WE do not have read 1300 pages to understand what it's talking about or have enough info to draw an opionion on it. Like so many in this post are doing.

People that have to vote on it, yeah they need to read it in detail. I'm glad that's what these people do for a living, it's not like they are shocked by 300 pages.. Hell, at that 1300 pages in details is only a couple hour read anyway.

But even then, if you don't really understand business, trends, global growth, and lots of other shit.. you will never see the big picture.

Our right radio here and the tv is all over this subject and we have no shortage of information about it online. Like most bills, it's not hard to find info on them.

A responsible American isn't going to simply listen to trash right radio or left morons and decide if they do or do not agree with something.....

Aren't you Canadian? If not, did you voice your opionion to the proper people, rather than to gfy? I'm going to say no.




Odd thing about all this. Most Americans seem to want this and a minor amount of other people don't, this is only one of many examples of this. It's odd how this minority is getting kicked in the balls by the exact system they pretend to support.

It's equally odd how the left call the media right and the right call the media left.

The entire bill is available at http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h2454/text and you can see what changes have been made to it (as I posted multiple times in this thread). The bill has been there since right after my birthday in May.

Again... you seem to be stuck somewhere. The entire bill has been online for over 6 weeks and any changes are detailed right there so you can see. What part of that didn't you understand? They didn't add 300 pages to the bill... that is a lie. I am totally down with the 72 hour waiting period though... but I suspect that time wouldn't be used to review the bill... it would be used to posture and complain.

Interesting point. Basically the strategy is to penalize existing fossil sources of energy by making it very expensive. This then works as a subsidy for expensive alternatives to reach a critical mass and get to a tipping point. The hope is that these alternatives will get cheaper with volume and with successive waves of newer and more efficient versions.

Sounds noble and everything but I agree with you regarding the TIMING of this initiative.

That claim is so Orwellian and outlandish that even the most delusional and starry eyed Obama supporter would not try and defend that claim. In general the media has made a concerted effort to refer to the bill as "climate change" legislation as opposed to the far more accurate "energy tax".

As to the other discussion regarding transparency:

The 300 pages of last minute amendments had not even been incorporated into the bill when it was voted on. There was not an actual printed copy of the final bill even printed before the vote. The absurd claim that this bill was read and understood in its entirety by the members before passage is so patently ridiculous that it is not even worth a discussion. :disgust

all the time.....so used to get used to it....or fucking run for congress....you hypocrite........change comes SLOWLY especially dealing with the government.......god you people are STUPID!

this aint going to happen the first year......maybe you might will see some improvement in the next......but overnight......you guys are turning out to be as lame as the chicks posing for the content!

DUMB :(

O'rly... and what makes you privy to this ridiculous claim... It is not even possible to add amendments to a bill after it has been voted on.... and what would there be to gain? Nothing. The bill will be sent to the Senate where they will debate and make amendments until passage at which time it will go to conference.

I don't think anyone ever expects the initial version of bills to pass. Obama is wisely making them extreme so that the watered-down version seems plausible when in fact pre-Obama the watered-down version would have been seen as extreme. It's like a $5 domain with an asking price of $10,000 and the owner decides that today's special is only $1,000, which seems awesome compared to $10,000 but is still ridiculous *coughmangotubecough*.

We do all know this bill hasn't passed the Senate yet right?

There is a pretty good chance it won't, or at least not in its current form.

If it does pass it will hurt the middle and lower class more than anyone. According to the CDA study there will be on overall increase in expenses for the average family of around $2,979 per year. That won't be tomorrow, it will come gradually over time. Over the last 18 years the average household income in the nation has increased around $10,000 per year so for many it isn't going to kill them, but it will take up nearly 30% of that increased income which is pretty insane.

The real problem will come if they can't develop enough renewable and green energy sources during that time. If they can they can lower the costs again, but if they can't the actual cost could be much higher than the estimates.

There is, of course, also the chance that if this passes and is signed when Obama leaves office in 4 or 8 years his predecessor immediately takes action to repeal this.

What does this have to do with Micheal?

again... your buddies added over 300 pages of amendments and that process wasn't even finished until late last friday... so no, you haven't read the bill and no, the bill in its current form hasn't been available since right after your birthday in May.

Name a single piece of legislation that has been repealed in the last 20 years. Doubtful that will happen. I just think all of this talk about cap and trade taxing people is just fucking stupid. The very premise of that argument is retarded. The goal is to get us off foreign oil and encourage investment in domestic energy. If you look back through the thread, I made a post showing that some of the biggest energy companies in the world are behind this legislation. In addition, Bush Sr. passed the Clean Air Act in 1990 that instituted a cap and trade system for Sulfur Dioxide emissions and that system is running fine (although it could use some changes as well). So... it's not like this is uncharted territory or anything. From my view, the whole opposition to the bill is purely that... just opposition with no real arguments other than "energy tax" talking points. It would seem to me that the right would be interested in promoting this legislation since it WILL create jobs by spurning investment in renewable energy sources and projects. If that weren't the case, it would have the wide support in the business community that it has... especially from energy companies like Shell and BP.