nice, ive been infatuated with religon since Catholic school. Its more interesting than politics and sports combined!!

My first act of actvism was not standing when priest entered class, he asked why I didnt, I said, why should I?" I was reprimanded at second grade for not bowing to a priest and I wont bow to a god.

I do not mean to offend, but I state my position with clarity and firmly.

what is your definition of "supreme being" then ?

Who is the grand architect ?

There isn't really a 'position' that is open for debate. Your 'position' is baseless and incorrect. For example, your belief in the "will" of man constitutes a belief in a supreme being, even if that supreme being resides inside ones self. You choose to get bogged down in sematics. Masonry is non-exclusive and nothing about masonry conflicts with a man's personal beliefs. That is the last I will say about it.

again, its the Catholic church saying you cant join, not the Masons saying you cant be Catholic...

Catholics need everyone to believe in their one god...

my sig says it all...BUT i would trust and believe in a Mason way more than ANY religion nut out there....Religion feeds off fear to the followers....Masons are way more business minded and they may have some laws that you dont have to agree upon, but to group Masons as religious, wrong...

what wrong with saying if your in a club that you have to pledge your loyalty to the group...it was for the masonary secrets oh so long ago....and go to any fraternity in a college, youre pledging your loyalty to that frat house....

"Grand Architect" is not a term that is used in masonry, but I understand what you're asking.

Unlike dogmatic religion, masonry specifically promotes the freedom of the mind. It's specific purpose is to promote philosophical thought on existence, values, "morals", personal choices, etc..

Masons in the UK pledge an allegiance to the Queen of England (who is the head of the Church of England) and regularly as part of ceremony recite the Lords Prayer. How is this secular...?

lol I wont even continue here.

that is hilarious. god is dead, you are very misinformed, you can start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Übermensch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead

I have to agree with you. And all these misconceptions about Masonry is what fuels the flames of ignorance. Every one is stuck on the whole "Supreme Being" and think that Masonry is about Religion..it is not. Because of the internet and ex-members who joind the Masons in hope of learning the "secrets" (thanks to National Treasure) You will never understand what is to be a Mason or what Masons do for the community where their Lodges are or the money that is raised for charities they support. I am proud to be a Mason And A Scottish Rite Mason.

Each grand lodge has it's own by-laws - but the central tenets of masonry are secular.

Most Masons are Catholic

Religion is usually not allow to even be discussed anywhere in a lodge/temple/whatever and if you do get into a god battle you'll probably be asked to leave.

Quite honestly NS_Gorilla is 100% right and it's usually a pretty good clue someone has no idea what they are talking about when they bring up god and masons

Fitty secret handshakes:pimp

And is it not secrecy that fuels all the misconceptions?

wow, funny that this is brought up.

My grandfather & grandmother, would take me to these meeting's I had no idea what all was going on, as I played around with the other kids. I know it was a big thing for them as they went every week and dressed up alot, I still don't know why they were members.
Infact, it seemed like the rest of the family didn't mind that they went, so it is a good thing? No biggie, I just never figured out why they went and took me, lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_A...f_the_Universe

"As a designation it is used within Freemasonry to neutrally represent whatever Supreme Being to which each member individually holds in adherence."

great, grand, semantics.

Doesn't appear very secular to the casual observer.

From the United Grand Lodge of England

it's not a good day for wikipedia then..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_A...f_the_Universe

Maybe it's a term used in superior degrees :winkwink:

Please dont take my opinions above as offensive. And do not take it personal, I do not single out Masons or anyone. I view any group that uses religion in ANY way as dangerous. This thread just happens to be about this particular group.

My personal beliefs simply put me at odds with anyone in any religious group.

If the group isnt religious,....Why cant they just leave out all the god stuff and just talk about stone cutting? Nope, one major requirement is to declare belief in supreme being"

Those of who value what neitzche taught us, no longer allow religion to dictate our actions, it is our Will we follow.

ps i never saw national Treasure :winkwink:

By no means am I taking offense. Every one has their right to their own opinion and believe what or who they want to belive in. This is the path that I have chosen and have no regrets. I am sure the other Masons like myself laugh at the comments and silliness that people come up with about Masons because they don't know what it is really all about.

My only problem with the group is the god stuff to be honest. I always thought a group like that sounded cool, but once I find out about the religous aspects, even if you claim its secular, I simply could never bow. And my beliefs are spot on with Neitzche when it comes to religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead

Once the Overman awakes in you, there is no turning back. And once you cross the line to believing in yourself more than god, the Will almost leads you along the path, even if along the left hand.

That is Satan taking control of you!!!!!!!!!!!