I'm not intellichat, but I'm pretty sure you aren't being cookied until you click on the link offered by the intellichat bot. So unless your user clicks on the link to accept the offer, you still own the cookie.

It is my understanding that a 'bookmark' sale in NATS is a sale that has originated without a referring url. In most cases, this is where an affiliate has referred a surfer, who then bookmarks the tour with the affiliates ref code in the url. If at any point in the future (days, months, years later) that surfer then joins the site via that bookmarked url then the affiliate gets credit.

A visitor needs to click on the 'Click Here' offer link within the Intellichat campaign & then purchase for us to be credited on the join. To be honest, if you are not happy with having either a trial offer or discounted price point on your affiliate ID just ask the program owner to disable the Intellichat campaign on your traffic...

As i said before, the option is there to split a payout on a saved sale... This was put in place to help increase the site joins aswell as keeping you guys (affiliates) in the loop on the join. Maybe the trial option isnt right for the site you are referring to, incentives can be changed...

Intellichat: Ok, just to clarify.

If they click the "click here" link and decide not to buy at this time, they leave with your cookie and not the affiliate's original cookie.

So, effectively, the affiliate's cookie is overwritten and Intellichat gets credited for the sale if the surfer does come back. And the affiliate gets 50% of that discount, or any at all, instead of the the full commission, despite the fact the affiliate is the one who referred the surfer originally?

Is this a correct statement?

It is a sale without a referring url, but it doesn't mean it's a real bookmark.

NATS can and does, drop referring urls for many reasons. It naturally happens (net scrub factor) then tracking scripts that redirect on the redirect will drop them, and other crap can make it happen too, like strack codes on tours that tracks the clicks.

Thing is, he said 75% of the sales came from bookmarks. It's impossible for 75% of your sales to come from real bookmarks.

OK, thanks for clearing that up. And looking forward to hearing a complete answer on the cookie question that robwod is asking now, because you only sort of half answered it.

As for "very few companies which have the back button feature enabled," when I did the check I mentioned above, I picked 2 companies out of the blue that I remembered had Intellichat running. Either they're unaware that they can turn the back button off, or they WANT it there. And one of them is a fairly big program.

I was referring to the "bookmark" heading in NATS stats, which I realize is not accurately named. I assumed I did not need to clarify this for anyone familiar with NATS, that is, those familiar with NATS understand what the "bookmark" title represents. However, this metric does include cookied surfers with no referrers and because my traffic is very extremely well targeted to a constant audience of one particular model, they go back frequently to this site and eventually buy. I have an extremely high amount of NATS "bookmark" sales -- sales without referrals... but certainly cookied.

I see that Billy responded to this saying that they can "disable" the pop-on-back which is the same way that UpSellit does it. What is very surprising to me is that he goes on to say that program owners choose the launch points (true with all chat options) and you are seeing so many with the launch off the back button. NEVER, EVER in my years selling the UpSellit chat solution did one single program owner want the pop-on-back (of the 4 dozen programs running it at the time). It very much eats into their profit. It effectively cannibalizes the traffic. This was proven by the HowIGotRich program. Their sales stats before chat, after chat with back button launch and then again with chat without pop-on back. I would have to say that either Intellichat is Not discussing the launch on back button and that is why all their programs are allowing it or they are not correctly communicating this launch point. No program owner with half a brain would allow this :2 cents: Not attacking their company, just stating facts and hopefully they can gain a bit of wisdom from one who worked in that space long before they did and already learned the hard way from mistakes like that.

Agreed. That's why, when I saw it happening, I immediately thought "I'm not using this on my sites, it's too aggressive."

Correct... and I get what you are saying.

You had sales that got full credit on, that now you don't. The question is, do you have more sales now?

If you sent 5 sales a day, and now you get 6 but two take the offer, that's a 20% gain. If the trial converts, it's net income growth for you. Most sites have scripts that help with trial conversion, and anything over 30% trial to converts, you're growing in money.

Once the visitor clicks the 'Click Here' link within the chat the cookie is set that will supersede everything else.
when the surfer comes back it is possible for the tracking code to be changed again to a different program but its up to the program owner to set that up so that links will replace the intelichat program id with another program id on the tour links. however if they book mark the signup page and then come directly back there, there is nothing that can be done.

Unless the program owner has something setup to say "well its been 6 hours since you where last here so here is your original program back by design, nats always honors the last cookie set....Unless it is forced to override it.

as Billy said though.... it can be disabled, you just have to ask. Referring back to my post after Thurbs, the issue is knowing what to ask. I don't think many program owners would even think to ask such a question. They would just assume it is launching from the close of the join page or tour only (that is the way it is marketed on the chat company sites - all of them). The launch from the back button should be CLEARLY explained as an option to program owners so they don't get upset about it later. I would hate to see them lose a client (as I did) over something so simple that could have been avoided with proper communication.

So if you don't launch the window on an exit... how do you get them to see the offer? :)

I have seen your technology in action along with intellichat. Your %'s were no different, or I would tell my clients to use you over them.

At that point, I tell the client to just select one... or I say,


Use my exits because the owner makes 100% of the sale along with the affiliate and my exits, can't be beat. Ie: Mo Money!

I hate it when the competition comes knocking.

We give all of our clients the option on all of our settings. Intellichat has various settings which means they can choose which pages they want back button enabled on and which pages disabled... Or disabled all together

We offer settings which are intelligent so you can browse a tour you can press back button without the campaign , but then press the back button to direct away from the URL and Intellichat will appear.

I would really like to stress that all clients are asked up front what settings they would like on their campaign. It is their choice if they have it turned on or not.

Settings can be edited at anytime, this isnt down to us... but the owner of the site, our client.

See therein lies the problem for me. Yes, i had 8 additional sales. Were they in addtion to what I normally might have had, i have no idea since these cookies were effectively overridden.

Now, the problem here is that I chose no-trial links because the model I am promoting does not have sufficient content to warrant a trial. You can view her entire site in an afternoon as it is still new. However, I have had a fan site on her for a few years and refer a steady supply of signups and traffic to her. The surfers go there and then come on back and talk about the updates on MY site. This encourages repeat traffic from my site to theirs. But not a lot will recur because of the lack of content given it's early age.

Now, with these trials injected onto the sales, I made $1.23 for these things instead of $14.97. Sure I had more sales, but at a whole lt less money and given the nature of the site, there's not much chance of a rebill either.

See my issue?

I'd rather take the chance on my referrals going back and buying at full price than end up with a lousy $1.23 for nothing. In my view, I actually lost money on this versus made money. Thankfully the program owner disabled it for me. But it doesn't mean I am any less upset at having trial links injected onto my links that had no trials to begin with.

First, if you think the site sucks so bad it can't support trials, then it can't support rebills either. So they either retain well enough for you to promote them, or they don't.

Most sites even with crap content naturally convert trials at about 20%. If the site has a script, because they are on nats they might, it could easily push the converts to 30%.

It makes no difference how much content they have. So much so, you could give a trial full access to a members area, and simply give them an upgrade button and at least 10% of the people will upgrade.

If a site is doing at least 30% trial to conversion, you will MAKE MORE MONEY, by having those trials. If the site is at 50% with 50% 1st month, you will double your money.

The trick is simple, compound them.

you mis-read my post. it was concerning launching off the back button only, which is not an exit my friend. no one is here to compare % or halt any biz. constructive critisizm is sometimes viewed as friendly advice, obviously sometimes not. i would have found it helpful in the earlier days of selling chat to have a veteran come in and tell me what worked for them and what cost them deals (that couldn't happen since there was no one else in the adult space before UpSellit offering this). but that's just me

This part is out of our hands.. if a company want to offer a trial through Intellichat thats their choice... along with it being allowed on your traffic.

It sounds like the issue isnt to do with us, but the company you are referring to.

If you click the back button on a page, and a window comes up, that's without question an exit.

Criticism is fine, just leave the self promo at home when the thread is clearly about one of your competitors clearing up issues.

Agreed. though it was also important for me to learn if, and just how/when, you take over the referring affiliate's cookie and replace it with your own, which you already answered. And as you said, the minute a surfer clicks your link to see what "special deal" is offered, even out of curiosity, and then backs out, he backs out with your cookie and not the affiliate's original cookie. This was important for me to understand as I now know to make sure no program runs this on my referral traffic.

And this is why Affiliate programs are dropping like flies.


Sorry to tell you Webmasters, in the next 2-3 years. Programs are going to start to monetize like this and many other, aggressive ways.. or they won't be around for you to promote them.

ah, ok, I mis-read your post :winkwink: the back button is an exit but it is not neccessarily being used to exit the site without sale. the chat companies push is that they are only going after sales you would have lost otherwise.

and.....FYI..Intellichat is not a competitor as I have not worked for a chat company in nearly a year. I refer to UpSellit because they have been in the space far longer and feel they have overcome several of the issues that Intellichat will overcome in time.

so intellichat is like a virtual real estate agent with boobs?
no need to answer that quest. Good luck with that.

oh I gotcha..

I recommend companies based on numbers. Like LB for example, adds sales.. so I will recommend them. Chat exits, add sales, so I recommend them. :)

Anything... that has a chance to pitch, offer, or sale the person again, 10 times over... I fully support. It's how paysites can go from 1:1000+ to under 1:500...


In my opinion, having 1 webmaster happy is not better than dropping you ratios by 20% or more, which helps all active affiliates push you more, bringing the program in more sales than the 1 lost Webmaster ever could have.

I'm not sure what issues you are referring to, as far as I am aware we do not currently have any... Intellichat launch new features monthly to keep things fresh & offering clients new ways to increase their revenue.

As you mention above you have been out of the loop for the past year, in October 2008 we we launched an exlcusive automated sales agent for the adult industry. Offering the widest and most sophisticated features available.

Kind of, but IC doesn't take $20k based on a set contract :)


The chat exits work rather well.. I have seen a few bad tours, turn to decent tours, with nothing more than the exit chat window added to the site.

I'm sure money could have been made up in other places, but time wise.. this is pretty hard to beat.

Perhaps. But after 13+ years as an affiliate making a comfortable living, I have heard that affiliate programs are dying for years. Maybe yes, maybe no. But there's always going to be room for a reliable, honest affiliate who can push sales.

And I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree if I don't appreciate having my cookies hijacked by a 3rd party, and worse, by approval of the affiliate program.

totally agreed. better just to suppress the affiliate code on the 1% that pipe up and complain that they don't want to make more money. on the back button i would still recommend program owners not using that launch. potential to lose full sales is a bit high for that launch point. like you, i recommend programs and companies that i have physically seen the numbers on and there happens to be only one in the chat dept. none of the options available in chat will disappoint in my opinion.

Well, for the heck of it, tested a third company that I know uses Intellichat. Went to first tour page, clicked Join, clicked back button back to tour, boom Intellichat window. Either clients are not understanding that they have the option to eliminate that particular pop event, or they simply WANT to cannibalize some of their traffic.

By the way, I'm NOT knocking the idea of the virtual chat agent, it is a proven idea that does work. Just wondering about the functionality here and how openly forward that functionality is explained to new clients. If you have full control over when the chat pops and for whom (with or without NATS), then I'll definitely check out your service, as well as the competition, for my sites.

I have to say, though, i wasn't too impressed with your answer to my question in here One Million Saved Sale & Counting... about how 1,000,000 saved sales equals $150,000,000 in revenue. Basically, you said it was because of recurring memberships, but I've been in adult online since 1998, I know full well how long average recur rates are. That was immediately followed by how you have no setup fees, you're pay-for-performance and contract-free, which wasn't germane to the question. I've seen a few times where you give a vague answer followed quickly by a marketing point for your service that isn't really relevant to the issue being discussed. :winkwink:

you are not too far behind the curve doll. you said yourself that the program owner is capable of suppressing affiliates that are unhappy and that you are not. in regards to optimum customer service, you may want to implement that into your programming somehow (would tell you how but i am not a programmer and techy challenged). UpSellit is able to take the codes the program hands it and do the work for them. very small details such as that you will refine.

i did see your launch with Intellichat adult last year, congratulations :thumbsup UpSellit entered the adult space mid 2006 green grasshopper :winkwink:

FYI to Intellichat, 2 of the 3 companies on your Clients page pop the chat window upon hitting the back button from the join page. The other one, I couldn't get the chat window to pop at all, no matter what I did, even when closing the browser from the join page or going flat out to a different typed-in website.

The reply you are reffering to is a thread which is about Intellichat Software Limited, this isnt just sites that have a recurring option. As I said earlier, each company is aware of the settings and can activatated or disabled on request.

When we set up clients we give them the option on how they would like the agent activated...

AH ok, that makes a bit more sense since mainstream places can offer high priced items. You had the Intellichat Adult logo at the top of the post, so I thought you were referring to adult.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

Let me just clarify something. I have NO problem with Intellichat on a theory basis, nor do I discount its effectiveness at conversions -- clearly it does.

My one and only problem here is the cookie hijacking.

In my opinion, Intellichat is there to give a "last chance" opportunity on converting traffic exiting the site, and in doing so, effectively hijacks the affiliate cookie.

Rather than a permanent hijack, I believe it would be best served as a temporary one. It is the affiliate who sent the traffic and it is intellichat who intercepts it. if Intellichat can't make the sale then and there, and the person still leaves, I believe the person should be leaving with the affiliate's original cookie, not Intellichat's. THAT is the big issue I have with Intellichat.

I agree with that and I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread. I made a comment that ended being a secondary discussion.

Donovan: pfft... No need to apologize. It's a natural flow of discussion to branch out into different things. I actually appreciated the side topic as it gave me more insight. Knowledge if never a bad thing :)

This thread was targeted at our NATS integration, the answer you were given regarding the program owner removing Intellichat for certain affiliates is straight forward... Look at this, http://wiki.toomuchmedia.com/index.php/IntelliChat under the reseller section :thumbsup

At no point was it said that our programmers were not capable of making edits to our system.

I think you have missed something in your year absense since we have been on the adult scene. The company you previously worked for may have been here 1st, but we are the current market leaders. Offering the most advanced features and currently the only company offering video and streaming options on an automated sales agent.

As I keep saying, if a company would like the back button feature active... We activate it. As for the site you are saying a campaign didnt appear for you, two of the companies on the clients page are large networks... Either testing is currently being done or the website hasnt got the agent on.

Robwod :- not sure if you saw one of the replies i posted earlier but this was part of it...

when the surfer comes back it is possible for the tracking code to be changed again to a different program but it up to the program owner to set that up so that links will replace the intelichat program id with another program id on the tour links

Hit me up on ICQ if you would like to discuss things further. Cheers, Billy

\
I did see this. However, let me ask you this. Rather than hijacking the affiliate cookie in its entirety, why can you not just set Intellichat's as a temp/session cookie that expires on exit, which would result in the affiliate's original cookie being left intact?

Let's face it, you never worked for any of the traffic, you simply intercept it and snipe the cookies.

Give me a shout on ICQ in 30 minutes, our tech guys have gone home for the day as its 7pm here. I will be online once i get home and we can discuss this more

One thing I find telling in this thread is the lack of answers to the simple question, "What sponsors are using Intellichat?"

It'd be nice to know exactly which sponsors use it.

That's okay... it's a pretty simple question. Why not just answer it here?

So you're saying that the default setting for the back button feature is actually OFF? You were the one who said:

I go to 5 companies, 4 have the back button feature enabled, and the 1 that doesn't does not pop your window at all (I looked at multiple randomly selected sites on that company's program, selected from each of their different program options). So, just made me wonder. I don't know why any site owner would want to give an immediate discount to someone who backs out from join page to tour. That makes no sense to me, it doesn't benefit the site owner or the affiliate (since it's not recapturing someone who's actually LEAVING the site), it only benefits Intellichat, who gets an additional sale.

Since it's it Intellichat's best interest to have that window pop as often as possible, it's only natural to wonder how truly clear Intellichat is about all the different ways to NOT pop the window. Not accusing you of anything, just saying.

I have tried to answer your questions to the best of my ability, i am not the owner of the company... I am an employee. The reason I asked to speak on ICQ is because I feel it is more professional to have a conversation than a discussion on here.

Our client list is confidential and will remain that way, otherwise we are posting our business on a forum for competitors to see.

I am wondering what you could say to me on ICQ versus here? Clearly you won't tell me what sponsors are gladly allowing you to hijack affiliate cookies so that I can watch my stats on those programs for any obvious pros/cons. What else could you want to discuss privately? Are you going to explain why you hijack affiliate cookies permanently versus setting a session cookie that expires on exit?

I realize all of this sounds contentious, but the fact is, I'd welcome Intellichat onto my non-trial referral links if I knew my cookies were not permanently hijacked.

Let me ask you. When making your sales pitch to owners, are they informed that you permanently hijack affiliate cookies even if the surfer leaves the chat?

Nothing?

Donovan: He said the techs went home so I am guessing he cannot answer the questions until they get in tomorrow. But certainly I am interested in the answers nonetheless.

In the interim, I did take the opportunity to ask some sponsors who use it, and/or whom were approached at Internext about it.

Interestingly enough, not one told me they were aware that affiliate's cookies were superseded after the chat window was closed -- after the click here was enacted --, and one never even knew an affiliate's cookies were overwritten at all. Of the ones I asked who were approached at Internext, none were told that IC overwrote any cookies at all (it was not part of the sales pitch at all according to them). Of the ones I spoke with as a whole that knew cookies were used, all of them them assumed the cookie was expired on exit of the chat window.

Granted my data sampling is small (5 programs), but it is certainly indicative to me that program owners are adding this Intellichat without any idea that affiliate cookies are getting hijacked beyond the chat exit (*per Billy's admission earlier in this thread*).

I'd love to hear IC correct me if this is misinformation.

NATS handles the Cookies..... So when a person clicks the link, NATS gives the surfer a new cookie. Every program owner knows this or they really shouldn't be running a program.

So yes, if a link is clicked to buy for the new offer, OF COURSE a new cookie is set.. even if you didn't set it, it would make no difference..0. and OF COURSE when the window is closed the cookie/ip isn't cleared. How else would they join with the exit window up?

So cancel ip tracking, cookies, the entire system, no refresh of the page, no new codes.. and yet, give the sale back to you? hahaha...



Your entire argument is based on the you thinking your sales come back and join at some crazy level, at a later date. Thus intellichat is stealing your return sales, so the cookie should expire.


Here is what's funny... even if they did cancel the cookie when the window was closed, you would still get the same amount of sales through intellichat. That's because your sales aren't return visitors. If the nats program had a 1 hour cookie expire, you would still get the same sales through intellichat.

At that, you don't even need cookies on, and chances are, you would still get the same % of sales.


The only misinformation going on is in your head.

robwod, if you speak to any of the sponsors again, please ask them if the chat pops on a back button from join page to tour, and if so, if they specifically asked for that option to be turned on and why. I'd be interested in hearing.

Billy hasn't been clear as to whether the back button pop function is defaulted to on and site owner must request it be turned off, or defaults to off and site owner must request it to be turned on. One time he says something and it sounds like it can be turned off if the owner wants, the other time he says it can be turned on if the owner wants. I'd like to hear what some site owners have been told when they signed up.