Absolutely bullshit accusations. If you REALLY were "manager of the fraud dpt" you would also know about the amount of bullshit said to those models, in hope of seeing more titties.

Just like webmaster telling models "we can make you rich"

If the content is more than 2 years old as stated, then the chances are that the ID in question is a paper Thai ID card that is written in Thai including the date of birth, and without checking with the Thai authorities I doubt anybody would be able to conclusivey verify if it was genuine or not.

At that time, even genuine ID cards looked like they had been done on an etch a sketch and put through the washing machine. The newer ones are in plastc form, have thai and English, and also contain a chip, but more than two years ago very few had them.

:2 cents:

I don't think "Anybody" has access to request such info in the first place . If you are foolish enough to just shell out important info like that to "Anybody" you truly to need reevaluate your business and yourself . Epoch is a huge company I am sure they have taken the precaution to use specific people in their dept to ask for such documents.

As for the profit angle , I only mentioned this because you were comparing billing business to hosting , design companies and whatever ....
You dont have to make sense of that , it's the root of every single business aspect but hey profit has nothing to do with anything <sarcasm> .

Lastly , Sure any company can refuse to provide service to their potential or existing client . The point is what ? Does that even need to be said ? It's like saying after the month of March it is April . :upsidedow

You can never know or judge anyone on their looks or behaviour. You know what neighbours always said about the worst murderers and crazy guys? "I don't undestand this, he seemed to be such a nice guy!"

wow !!!!!

Are you kidding me?

Why does it have to be a feature site?

What about all the unverified, stolen and ripped amateur content that guaranteed has MANY MANY underage girls with cum on their face or whatever else?

Probably should start with those WAY before bothering DWB with his thai bitches..

Yeah, he even took me out to lunch! :thumbsup

Kind a remind me to situation where bartenders are not allowed by law to request id from possible minors,but they have a right to deny service so people need to show id anyway if they want service.

when i was younger and i wanted to go to disco, i had to show my id. bouncer wanted to know if i am 18+. cause i wanted to be at the disco, i had no problem, its his right to ask and i have to show it or i can go fuck myself ... :2 cents:

lawdz even so HELLO PHOTOSHOP... what then?

Supply them with redacted ID's, and that should be enough to prove their age.

50 Epoch requests

Don't mess with the DWB ...

If they were asking to see all of your paperwork for every single shoot, that would be asking you to go to a lot of bother, but, if there are just two girls they are concerned about, that seems like a way less annoying compliance interaction than, uhm, many. I would definitely recommend talking to your rep or asking support to put you in touch with someone in compliance though, if you want to be on the safe side.

And, yes, I've sent my ID to both Epoch and CCBill.

It's not Thai IDs, it's from Latin America. One from Cuba, the other from Colombia.

Hey Jim,
They sure did.

"The models Anna & Claudi appear fairly young. Please forward us your 2257 documentation for these models so that we can verify they were of legal age at the time of the shoot."

If I were you, I would start trying to figure out how to flip burgers again, because if you don't protect the people you work with, you will be out of a job real quick. :2 cents:

That's a start. However, unless you guys are going to give me YOUR IDs, and sign a document that Epoch will assume ALL liability should something happen to my models due to this, including breaking the privacy laws within their own countries, then it's not going to happen. Though, I'm going to take a guess that you guys will not be doing this.

I am obligated to do everything I can to ensure that the models I work with are safe and sound. I will not violate their safety, unless LAW ENFORCEMENT makes me do so. But, only during regular business hours, at the address listed on my 2257 compliance page. Why should Epoch get special treatment when the FBI has to follow the rules of inspection? Think about that for a minute.

Five whole years? Sure, I'll trust them then, why not? :helpme

I've been doing this for 11 and never once had a single problem, as I am a professional, working in the online and DVD markets. I'm qualified too. In fact, I'm a hell of a lot more qualified that your employees.

I've been there and your team took me to lunch, a little Italian place just around the corner from your office. It was damn good too. Thank you. But that doesn't mean I would give my models IDs to them.

I can assure you all of my models IDs are legit.

Then you won't mind also giving me the IDs of everyone who will be viewing my models IDs, along with a signed document that Epoch will assume ALL liability should something happen to my models due to all of this? I wouldn't ask for such a thing for fun, I do it because I am obligated to do so for the protection of everyone I work with.

This is pretty plain and simple. You are asking for something that you have no need to see. If Visa wants to see it, they can get with the FBI and visit the address listed, during normal business hours. You can come with them if you want. Those are the rules, and Epoch should play by them too. You are not above the law.

You have your Privacy Policy and I have mine. I'm not going to violate mine in order to please someone who is not affiliated with a government agency. Your Privacy Policy protects members, mine protects models. The safety of my models comes before the employees who have been working with at Epoch for 5 whole years. The same as you will not release your employees data to me, I'm not going to release my models to you.

That would set my alarm bells off and I would contact my account manager and speak with him. If worse comes to worse I would call Risk and/or compliance myself and ask what is up. I have the numbers and believe me, with out sites we get asked for IDs on a schedule LOL


spaz

I just don't see why THEY need to see yours, mine or anyones IDs, without the proper authorities assisting them.

We all have to keep our documents and list where they are on your 2257 compliance page, so that a government agency, be it the FBI or local law enforcement, can inspect those records during normal business hours. WHY is Epoch above that? If the FBI can not send me an email and get those documents, Epoch sure as hell isn't going to.

The address for that content is listed on the 2257 page on my sites. They can call the FBI and go see them during normal business hours, just like everyone else has to. To give Epoch special privileges, when they are not associated with the law, is just reckless.

Have some fucking balls people. Why does the FBI (or any other government agency) have to visit your office during normal business hours (not get the docs via email), but you will give the same documents to Epoch via email, upon their email request, and send them to Epoch employees who could abuse the information you send them? That's madness. :2 cents:

DWB - We are in business together. But we have a lot of interests to protect, not just yours or ours. We are a well established billing company, going on fourteen years in this business. Why you believe we would jeopardize our operations over your site or anyone's make no sense to me.

Our agreement with each other states our policies of what we will and will not process for and the terms that you agree to abide by. My guess is that any IPSP out there is going to request the same to protect their business as well. Your processor helps you to remain compliant so your site(s) do not escalate to the point of the FBI or VISA requesting documentation. It's part of why you use an IPSP.

My only suggestion is if you don't want to provide the requested documentations is to remove the models in question

If you want to discuss this Monday with our risk department we can do that.


.

DWB, I agree with you about only releasing them to the designated FBI personnel per regulations. The 2257 information is there for government legal purposes, not for general corporate use.

Epoch, if you so desperately need the information, then I suggest you use the proper channels for it. I'm sure DWB will be more than willing to permit the FBI to check the 2257 for you under the current legal regulations.

You are going to say goodbye to all your epoch rebills just for the sake of not showing a models ID?

Bullshit, is Epoch has a problem they should contact the authoities and work through an official member of law enforcement

I see it as a 'like it or not it is part of doing business in this business' especially if you use a 3rd party biller. They make the rules. I curious about one thing...

Rand, is it in Epoch's contract/agreement/ToS that you have the right to inspect documents? I suspect it is


spaz

Kinda what I figured, in regards to how this conversation or discussion on legalities would go.

:2 cents:

Are you actually serious?

Who in the fuck wants the FBI or any other government agency poking around their business office is beyond me. I am all for standing your ground when you think there is something wrong, or unfair, but this situation is just crazy.

Call in the FBI to check docs instead of just handing them over to your billing company and defacto PARTNER IN BUSINESS?

Fucking unreal.

Some of you don't see a difference in showing your own ID at bars and showing IDs of other people? You can do whatever you want with your ID, its your right, but that doesn't mean you can do the same with IDs that don't belong to you. I think epoch is trying to play the police here.

you trust them to hold the credit card numbers of the members of your site, but not id's?

Why anyone would prefer to have the FBI knocking on their door instead of cooperating with their processor is beyond me.

You have to show ID to enter a bar. It is not unreasonable to request ID to process adult content which uses federally regulated monetary instruments especially if there is a question regarding that content.

It blows me away all the time as to how much sense DWB makes, even if it is right there im front of our noses already...

I totally agree with you DWB...

One person that is in it it for the profession and for the all around right things. Someone that dosnt hold their profit above their morals and success. Funny its coming from one of the people that most would least expect it from.

Any time we meet DWB... drinks, food and tranny hookers ar eon me!

I dont think hes saying he wants the fbi there...

he may have said come witht hem, but i think his point is that you are trying to do something that the fbi is not allowed to do themselves. If you truly need the documentation then you can take the same route that the fbi... which by all means is above you... has to take...

Let me make sure I follow your GFY logic....

So you want your billing company, and defacto partner in the adult business to..

1. Trust in you and your sites that you are following the VISA/TOS rules and regs
2. Trust in your transactions and that they are not fraud or illegal
3. Trust your members, and customer base to this 3rd party biller
4. Trust that they will pay you/and your affiliates promptly.

But you do not TRUST THEM with your docs??

Fucking unreal.

problem is epoch dosnt care about their profit loss with dwb and dwb dosnt care about his profit loss with epoch. so youre both willing to throw it away for policies and morals...

now which do you find more commendable... policy and profit or morals and safety of models.

I dont think for one second that epoch is going to endanger one of DWB's models, but thats not for me to risk. its for him...

You can visit my place of business, for that content, listed on my 2257 compliance page, the same as the FBI or any other government agency has to do. Epoch is not above the government.

I welcome an FBI inspection, and do not fear it, as I have nothing to hide. I come from the DVD side of the industry and many of us have already been inspected by Chuck Joyner, back when they were doing inspections. He did it the correct way, as will your company, or you will not get the IDs your "Support Specialist" requires.

Indeed you are, and I am one of the largest producers, if not the largest, in all South East Asia, and have been for 11 years, going on 12. Why would I jeopardize my operations and the safety of my models over your 3rd party processing company, or anyone elses company, makes no sense to me.

How can you be so sure one of your employees does not have a malicious motive? One of the posts early in this thread leads to believe someone from your company was unethical during a cam chat. Maybe that is true, maybe it is not, but I WILL NOT jeopardize a models safety if there is ANY chance of a rouge employee you may not currently know about.

Like I said, you are not above a government agency. You can inspect my records the same as they have to, so long as you come with someone from law enforcement. If that is unacceptable to Epoch, please take it up with those who wrote the 2257 laws. I'm sure they will be more than happy to accommodate your business and change the law for you. Just tell them Visa wants them to do it. That works well for site compliance, I'm sure the law makers will buy it too.

Or, remove Epoch from our cascade. Unfortunately this seems to be the only option, as I know Epoch will not be visiting my place of records along side a government agency, or providing me with the IDs of every Epoch employee who will view these documents, as well as a signed document that makes Epoch fully responsible for ANYTHING that should come of this that is damaging, physically, mentally or legally to the models. But hey, if you are game and accommodate my personal privacy policy, lets do it! However, I'm not going to hold my breath, as I'm sure it would violate Epoch's employee privacy policy to provide me with that information.

Baddog once said he was deemed an intellectual terrorist...

I think you too can be titled as such...

Do you guys have no privacy laws in the states? Or maybe privacy doesn't even exist there anymore? Everywhere else it would be illegal what epoch wants.

And just because I choose a biller, doesn't mean I have to trust them, there aren't many to choose from, so you have to choose the best of whats available.

Agreed.

I, unlike a lot of people in this thread, am in the same boat as DWB. We both shoot content, and have to deal with 2257 as content producers.

That said, I simply prefer to pick my battles, and this is not one worth fighting, to me personally. However, DBW has his own motives, and business to run. I like DWB on a personal level, and I am not saying he is necessarily right or wrong. However, I simply do not see the point in all this.

When I sign up with a processor, I know they are little more than a middle man in the transaction process. We are in business together. I agree to their terms, just like they have to agree to the terms with their merchant bank, and their merchant bank with VISA.

I am essentially trusting them to not rip me, or my members, off. Trusting my members billing information with them. Trusting I will be paid for my memberships, and so forth. I am putting a lot of trust in them to remain IN business. If they had a question, like in this DWB case, I would just block out the non-essential (contact) info and show them whatever so I could get back to business. Not make a federal case about it, nor lose my rebills or effect my customers negatively over something like this.

But that's just me.

Blank out the info that could lead to any harm, otherwise there must be another reason that you are dodging the request.

You do have the id's right ?????????????

Sorry champ.

But when you sign up with a processor, you agree to their T.O.S.. It is a contact like any other. With processing companies, they have a section for compliance. If you do not want to use a third party processor, and agree to their terms, you go out and get yourself, and company, it's own merchant account.

Or do you not have contracts where you are from?

Look, I may be a lot of things, and not all of them pleasant, but one thing I do is take care of the people who work with me. If that means I have to lose a little money and change processors, so be it.

Dude, I'm from the DVD world. Many of us have already been through inspections. It's no big deal if you have your house in order.

Exactly. If they want to see MY ID, lets do it. That is MY call to make. It is NOT my call to show them the ID of my models.

It's not about that. It's about a potential employee using the information he receieves to stalk or harm the model. THIS IS PORN. There are some FREAKY fucking people around it. I don't trust anyone with the models IDs unless they are associated with law enforcement, and even then it's a risk, but its a risk you legally must take. But some dude at Epoch... not a chance. That guy will not be stalking a site member, should that guy turn out to be a nut job.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I trust the FBI with my IDs. Well, not totally, but more than some guys sitting at the other end of an email, who all work in the porn business. This business draws some crazy people to it, and I just can't take that chance.

I stand by the people who work with me. They are the reason I work. I won't risk their safety for a second, even if I lose a little money over it. I can sleep at night knowing I lost money, I wouldn't be able to sleep if something happened to one of those girls because of something that happened with Epoch.

Chances are there would be NO harm at all, as I hope everyone there is above board. But why take that chance when I don't have to? There are ALWAYS rouge employees out there and the porn industry seems to have more than most. It's just not worth the risk.

I agree with you BF... I sorta feel DWB is being a little strict here, but its his right to preotect his assets... hes not just thinking about rebills and these models, hes thinkign about his business as a whole and its future. Is it right or wrong whats hes doing, thats for neither of us or anyone else to decide, as im sure you agree.

but what i do feel... what epoch is asking isnt unreasonable... just as what DWB is asking isnt unreasonable. DWB has very good points... I mean he could sit ther and oblige epoch with instant ids... but hes not bending the law for anyone it seems. Seems he feels that anyone below the law can take the same route that the law takes to obtain such id if they so deem it necessary

Assuming you refuse and change to another processor. Don't you think its reasonable to assume the new processor would request the same thing as well? It seems to make more sense to provide a blacked out version of the required ID's to simply prove her age and screen out their addresses/contact info.
WG