Agreed.

It's DWB business to do whatever he likes. His position, or what he does, is not going to effect me, nor my business, one way or the other. So personally, I could care less.

Carry on.

A contract to get me to evade law? What kind of contract would that be? I'm pretty sure the privacy law is above the contract. Billing company is not police, thats not their job.

This all brings up a big question ive always had but never asked...

Say you have your own merchant account.

Why would you then take on a 3rd party processing? What do they bring to the table beneficially? Do they ensure transactions? do they ensure checks get sent? What are the pros of epoch and ccbill? Why dont people get their own merchant accounts?

uncool BF... dont just deflect with its not hurting my biz... moving oin... FIGHT DAMMIT!

IS this what theyre worried about? is the models in question looking young? We dont know that...

or did i miss that?

is that the only reason epoch would ask for id?

You enter, READ, and sign an agreement with a processing company, and agree to follow their rules and regulations. That includes compliance.

If you do not like their rules, you do not do business with them. Better yet, you do not ENTER AN AGREEMENT. Go get your own merchant account if you do not like the rules of third party processors.

If you think U.S. based processors are unfair, breaking your laws, are the Dubya of adult online, then go find one in your area of the world that matches your business model and practices.

Common sense.

I would love to see an Epoch grunt worker use a girl's information, then track her down in COLOMBIA, then hurt or kill her, and THEN see all of that shit tie back to DWB with a strong enough case that they can launch an international lawsuit to hold him responsible.

But the thing is......As crazy as that sounds, at least the tracking down part is somewhat feasible......Fuckers are crazy enough to actually show up in another country with pictures in hand.

After the iBills iMonde and other billers who have went under. Most people use more than one processor to spread the risk. So if one goes under, you do not lose everything. Also some offer things others do not. Verotel covers things CCB doesn't for example. EU Direct Debit, and some Korean card, SMS, etc..

Rules of merchant banks vary. The biggest issue, U.S. based, is you have to do enough volume monthly. There are a few other sticking points, in there as well that escape my at the moment.

Also, third party billers handle customer support, charge backs, and scrubbing. Something you, and your business, would have to do yourself with your own merchant account unless you hire outside service.

There are parts I am leaving out, but that is the long story short of it.

In addition to thinking it is wrong for a processor to ask for such documents, lets look at one more, highly improbable freak of chance. Some of the countries I shoot in (Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, Cuba) would literally arrest the model in question and she would spend the rest of her days rotting behind bars, for making porn. So long as her true identity is safe with me, and my sites blocked from her country, there will never be a problem. As soon as I start passing those IDs around and someone knows so much as her name, if that somehow, in some freak chance, got to the wrong hands, she is fucked.

Now, one of the models in question is Cuban, and lives IN Cuba, where the scene was shot. Lets say someone on staff at Epoch is Cuban and they tell someone in their family they just saw Cuban porn for the first time and her name was XXXXXXX. This person talks, that person talks, it makes it back to Cuba somehow and the girl is arrested.

OF COURSE that is a reach, but stranger things have happened. I once shot a black girl in BRAZIL who I met at random, who happened to turn out to be the girlfriend of one of my friends who lives in FRANCE. What are the odds of that? Shit happens. I also know a person who has been struck by lightning THREE TIMES. What are the odds of that? Or, what if one of them KNOWS this girl and is trying to confirm its her for various reasons? My point is, shit happens. But shit doesn't happen on my watch, with my models, do to my reckless behavior.

This is not even getting into the rouge, sicko employee. Nor is it getting into the fact that they will continue to ask for more and more and more and more until you can't send the IDs and docs to them blacked out. They will baby step their way into it, just as everything else is baby stepped into play.

Last but not least, there are others who welcome my small business, without the hassle of showing them IDs of models who are clearly of age.

I like Epoch. I've been to their office and seen how they do things. But that does not mean I trust every employee inside of their swank office. Hell, I don't trust 90% of the people in this business in general.

Dude, I have had MEMBERS, go to cities in other countries, with photos in hands and look for these girls. A few of them have been found!!! THIS SHIT HAPPENS!!!! Guys are fucking OUT OF CONTROL when it comes to pussy.

That's what I'm saying! No chances. It's not worth it. If they NEED the IDs, get the FBI to accompany you and visit the address for that content on my 2257 page. :2 cents:

That isn't entirely true and he kind of has a legitimate point but it totally depends on the American privacy laws, which I do not know.

You can not be held to a contract if it forces you to do something illegal. So even though you read and sign a contract you are not completely bound to it if something within that contract requires you to do something that is illegal. Now, is handing over government issued IDs to a third parties illegal? I really haven't the slightest idea.

That would pretty much be the key element in the whole argument.

Though, now I'm wondering even further... European content producers. If I buy content from you, is it legal for you to give me the IDs? Because I want them. And if it is legal, why is it legal?

No worries man. Like I said previously, I have nothing against you or a personal agenda.

As I said, it is your business to run as you see fit, and I am sure you have your reasons for sticking to your guns that I simply can not fathom... like your explanation above.

I am not judging you, nor claiming to know better than you. I am simply saying, I would make a different decision based on my own business, and how I run it. No more. No less.

:)

Why should I. I love the states and love to use companies from the US. Doesn't mean I have to agree with everything they say and do. Don't you have your own opinion on things? Also, I don't think there is anything in the contract about checking personal info of girls they bill for.

"laws of the land".

1. You enter an agreement/contract with a company.
2. You sign that you have read, and will follow that agreement. Including compliance.

Regardless of where YOU are located.

I'm not reading all this..

But the short of what I have to say is...

If someone complained about you, said they owned the content, sent them a notice, or for compliance (you have to follow US Laws to be complaint)... you may have to provide an ID.


Black out everything but the name, picture, and birth date. Now the excuse about privacy is gone.

I already use CCbill, and they do not ask. IT IS NOT THEIR JOB to police IDs, they have all made that clear by processing for "GF" sites. Their job is to provide 3rd party billing. So do it.


Exactly. They are a processor. THEY NEED TO PROCESS!!!

If they want to check IDs, they need to start with the GF sites and work down from there.

Perfect. Globill, Ibill, iMonde... all GONE. Lets say Epoch goes too. It could happen. What about my IDs? Who gets them? Where do they go at that point?

They said two models "appear fairly young."

The closest thing to young is one of them has braces.

It's more than that. However, the name needs to be blocked out as well. You can do damage with someones name, if you also have their date of birth and their photo.

Epoch is not above a government agency. If they want the IDs, they can go WITH law enforcement, to the location listed for that content on my 2257 page, during normal business hours, and see them. That shouldn't be a problem. If the FBI and other law enforcement agencies have to do that, SO DOES EPOCH.

The FBI will not be sending an email to me to inspect my records, the same as I would not send the IDs to the FBI via email. Why is Epoch above the law?

You are a big player BROmance. Can't your lawyer simply draft a simply docs that ID's will be destroyed upon verification? Get it signed, provide docs, the end.

Double post

a hundie DWB's

:pimp

God i love this thread!!!!

DWB you are right and i dont even have to tell you that!

Epoch yes you feel right, but DWB brought up a great point here that really should change your policies since you do porcess for the world and not just for the USA.

Safety of others comes before profit... bottom line. If you dont think so... Well then fuck you!

No one here in this argument so far as endured the detriment that DWB has in his career. I myself cannot even fathom the shit that DWB has encountered. From all that hes is most concerned for the safety and well being of his models which in the end are his main asset and all that truly matters. I commend that!

This guys is known as a pervert tranny fucker yet hes is probably the most respectable and loyal mother fucker here. Pure fucking irony!

i have never signed up to use Epoch but i would love to read the signing policies.

The FBI does this because they have no power over your Company directly, that's why they inspect.

With 3rd party processors, they do have the power. It isn't your merchant account, they aren't even your members and really it isn't your money. Understand, they can do ANYTHING and ask ANYTHING they want, and you have no power to say no.

All it takes it someone to make a claim, and you will be forced to provide proof.

Compliance checks isn't just for VISA, it's for U.S. Laws as well.

And thank god they do... I would NEVER want to work with a 3rd party processor that didn't make sure every client was perfectly in check. It's not your money, just like it isn't mine, so you screwing with them, screws with me and everyone else too.

Sure. I'm sure that very document would also stop a rouge employee from doing something inappropriate. I'm also sure it would also erase that date from the hard drive so it could not be found at a later date, when the time comes to upgrade their system. A Peice of paper is not going to stop a pervert.

You are also missing the other point, which is, why does Epoch have special privileges that are not even provided to the FBI or other law enforcement agencies? How can Epoch just shoot me an email and demand those IDs, when a government agency can not?

If WE have to abide by 2257, then so do they. I've said it over and over here, if they need them, grab the FBI and go see them, during normal business hours at the address listed. That's what the FBI would have to do, so that is what Epoch will have to do.

Of course, I've also said if Epoch wants to provide me with their employees IDs, the ones who will see these IDs, as well as sign a document stating they take full responsibility should anything happen to these models as a result of them having access to the IDs, then that is another option.

I have given them TWO solutions. Both of them are fair. They gave me one, to remove the content. Luckily for me, there are other billers in town, so I'm not going to jump through bullshit hoops to use Epoch when I can log into NATS and take them out of the cascade should that need to happen.

Everyone educated in this business knows that thai girls look young. I worked wth this thai girl damn near straight"off the boat" a few years back and i almost started hitting on her thinking she was 18 or 20, turns out she was 30 something almost 40. From then on I knew that thai girls (alot of all around asian girls) look young no matter what.



I feel DWB could be more diligent more giving up records to people hes fdoing business with but i also see exactly what DWBs point is... and to me it overcomes importance!

Hes potentially saving lives, reguardless of true outcome!

He is protecting not only his business but also his models no matter what the case may be.

You're right. However, I have the power to turn them off in my cascade.

Then they need to get on the GF sites, because there are maybe 2 of them who are compliant. :2 cents:

If they are going to be checking IDs, then check ALL the fucking IDs, on every god damned site. Otherwise, they are wasting everyones times.

I think whats his point is that epoch is feeling above the law. Sure dwb could "comply" and just send the docs. Why shouldnt a processing company have to take the same route as the law if they so deem it necessary? why should a company have better advantages or easier avenues than the law?

If you dont want to save your profit margin with a legitimate process that the law has laid out then why should it be enforced without repercussion?

I feel ya dwb. I don't like it neither.
I have faith in the people who process our cards, especially a company like epoch.
It's not some 3rd world gateway asking you for this info. I'm in no way disagreeing with you. I have only been asked once for an ID (not by epoch). I handed it over, but sanitized out all but name and age. This is where I feel that us as a business have to mutually trust each other. Yea, it's the jizz bizz and there are scumbags entering at an alarming rate. But there are still some good people left. In that I have faith.
Cheers bro,
Duke

Naw man, one of them is Cuban, the other Colombian.

Because the processing site doesn't own the domain and they aren't producing the content at any level.

So legally, they are just covering their asses. If something ever went down, and they got pulled in, they could show proof they tried. They don't have to prove the age, but they would have to prove they attempted to filter it out.

... and when Visa starts telling them to check, Epoch won't be years behind.

I don't disagree with ya man.. more than a few sites that EVERY processor could easily clear out... hell, before they even asked for a document. And clearly, some of those GF sites, NEED to be checked, every document.

Just don't forget, CCBill can ask and I'm sure has at least once (I know they won't allow newsgroups, and I was told because of age issues), even the merchant bank can ask. If you're doing business in Porn in America, be ready to provide proof at some point to someone, or lose money.

Actually, its HIS money, epoch is just processing the money, they don't own it. Upon your logic people working at walmart at cash counters can take all the money they process during the day, its their money, right? No, they just get their share, they don't own shit.

That's BS. They don't need to cover their ass any more than hosting companies do.

If Visa wants to crack the whip and everyone has to show every ID for every site, and laws are changed, then I will live by that. But in the meantime while Epoch plays cowboy, they can do it with someone else. They can follow the 2257 rules just like everyone else has to.

Oh i hate you now, you threw me under the bus :1orglaugh

I guess my assumptions got the best of me...

so disreguard my thai girls statement :winkwink:

You nailed it there. Proof to SOMEONE would be legal authorities. Not hosting companies, not 3rd party companies, and not someone who you lease a CMS or cascading back end from.

If I send a C&D to a hosting company, they will make you show proof. Or I will own that hosting company.

every document? you mean... one whatsoever? the majority of "gf" sotes out there have non at all!

we all know it...
10% of the "gf" sites out there have an inkling of proof and about 2% of those are actually legit.

I agree with DWB... before checking his cubans and cambodians you should all chekc the ALL TO WELL KNOWN fake ass ripped off amateur GF sites that we all know have no prrof at all to process. If you say a policy is the rteason then please enforce it to the fullest instead of selective processing!

Well... you don't work with me. I can afford to toss you under the bus. :winkwink: :1orglaugh

Yea, some of the Thai girls look very young. They are Asian and small. But I used to work a lot in Latin America and that is where these models are from. Cuba and Colombia.

Just to put into perspective, a Cuban girl goes to jail for THREE MONTHS if the police catch her just TALKING to a tourist, unless she is a licensed guide. Imagine what they would do with her for shooting porn with a tourist!?!?

No, they will have me show proof that I own the content. Not the models 2257 documents. That proves nothing, other than I have a copy of her documents and ID.

A loophole which should be(but isnt always) both ways...