Right. Do full inspections or don't do any at all. However, they still need to inspect them in the proper manner, the same as a government agency has to.

Seriously? months in jail for talking to a tourist?

seriously... if you american processing companies want to continually process for countries other than where you are based, i advise you and implore you to involve your company and its policies with every country that you process. If not, dont expect people to give up everything for your profit margin...

You are missing my point.

If you want to do business with EPOCH, or anyone, you comply to their terms. Doing business with that business, and their contract and terms of service supersede the laws.

Same as a mainstream webhost does not allow adult sites, and will kill your account. Adult sites are not illegal in the U.S., or most of the world, but their TOS supersede them. Same as PayPal will freeze your account, or seize your funds for processing adult virtual transactions. They are not illegal, per se, but they are against their TOS and will close your account.

The point is. If you want to do business with them, and you agree to their T.O.S., you follow their rules period. It is not a 2257 issue, as being broadly painted. It is a compliance issue.

EPOCH supposedly get a complaint. They want to verify, as any processor would, that the models in the complaint are legal before their merchant bank or VISA get involved and start fining them, or drop them.

EPOCH has to think about more than just one DWB, and about all their clients they process for when it comes to compliance, and their merchant bank.

If your host receives complaints or has their doubts about legality of any content on their network, they will require you to prove that the content is legal. If you don't, you can either remove the content or they will boot you.

Yup, 3 months. The don't fuck around down there. Another reason I'm not giving her ID to anyone unless they are fully trusted and part of a government agency.

I've seen it happen several times. And if the girl has been arrested before for the same crime, she goes to jail for an even longer time.

:winkwink:

The C&D was just an example, but if it's an age issue. they will ask for proof or tell you go host with someone else. Some hosts don't like questionable content and once they get complaints, they will ask you. "Exactly" like a spam complaint, you show proof of the opt-in, so they can show the upstream provider.. If someone complains, you will be asked.

This is compliance issue though..


It's not loop hole, any U.S. Company 'allowing' illegal activity is illegal.

Ah ha! I get it now.

Hey officer, why did you stop ME for going 65 in a 55 when that guy next to me was clearly going 70 or faster?

Sorry chief. Still speeding and breaking the law. It has nothing to do with unfair treatment, or selective enforcement. You just pulled over first, and the other dude didn't.

The coin has two sides. If they want MY business, even though it is small, they have to work within my terms and privacy policy as well.

Also, I don't have the contract in front of me. It was signed a long time ago. I'm curious to see if they even state they have the right to view the IDs or not. Even if it does state they can do that, Epoch is not the only game in town so I don't have to follow their rules.

Last, if they want to see IDs and documents, I say again... WHY ARE THEY ABOVE THE FBI OR OTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCIES? Why can they fire off an email when the FBI has to go to your place of business during normal business hours, to see the same thing?

A hosting company is not going to ask for an ID. If they did, I would drop them too. There is NO shortage of GOOD hosting companies around.

They want to make sure the content is yours. I've done this dance before. Most of my content is on DVD as well, so it's not hard to prove that I own it.

As I explained in my example with both hosting companies, and PayPal. It is not a 2257 issue. It is a compliance issue. The water is just being muddied.

But you're right. You can take your ball and go home, or down the road to the next person who WILL process for you, not ask you any questions, and appreciate your firm butt cheeks.

:2 cents:

You are right. But I would tell them the same thing, to visit my office during normal business hours, with someone from law enforcement, and they can see all the IDs they want. I'm not saying people can't see them, I'm saying there is a way to see them, the same way the FBI has to, or we won't do business together.

LOL. If a hosting company thinks you are using pictures of underage girls, they will either ask you to remove the contents or to show the proof that it is not under age.

And yes, you are free to move to any hosting company you want.

You may have done the ownership dance, obviously you haven't done the legality dance. Which is good for you. But it does happen. If you think hosting companies are going to let illegal content or questionable content run rampant on their servers you are nuts.

What I'm saying is, I don't think Epoch should have the right to view them, HOWEVER, if they must, I have told them how they must do it. That way is the same as the FBI or the local police has to. If they don't follow the same rules that everyone else has to follow, then yea, I take my ball and bounce, and they lose no sleep over it as I'm small potatoes when it comes to my own pay sites.

..and what would you tell your web host, as in Sly's example?

Say the same 'complaint' went to your web host. You would take the same stance? Telling MOJO, PHAT, or whomever to jump on a place and fly to Thailand with Federali's?

Let me put ya on the spot...

As an Affiliate, I want you to prove the girl is legal age. Nothing fancy, just proof so I can make sure I won't get into trouble. Or maybe my hosting company asked me..

Now the 2257 law pretty much clearly explains this, how to sanitize the records, and so on. It's not a privacy issue by law..

What now?

You are correct, but out of the 1000s of girls I've shot, I've never ONCE, had anyone tell me any of them look underage until today, and its on a site that is 2 years old, with content that is at least 4 years old.

I don't push the envelope in terms of girls who look too young, that's why I don't have these problems.

First of all, I've been with my main host for many, many years and have a great relationship. I would give the OWNER a copy of the IDs, and that's it. Nobody else. If it was just some other host, I would tell them that they can view the IDs the same as the FBI has to. If they can't do that, I would take my business to another host.

The FBI inspects to make sure, the age, and OTHER 2257 Recorded Keeping things are taken care of, that can ONLY be checked in person. It's not like you could actually fax up all your records to the FBI... and Epoch is only asking for 2, not all.


We had been processing with epoch/ccbill for like 5 years, with the exact same members area for the entire time, NO complaints. We had a FORUM, no content.. it was TEXT "Stories." <--- Really, it was stories.

I had to pull it down or lose my processing with both. Questionable content.. not illegal, questionable.

No proof, no nothing... pull it down or that's it.

So we checked with our own merchant account... didn't make a difference, issuing bank didn't allow it either. Again, the TEXT was legal.

It's not a privacy issue for AMERICAN law. I don't work in the USA.

The issue is, her name. I'm not giving out her name. If you would be happy with just her DOB and a photo, and OK with me blacking out even the issuing country, then I may be OK with that IF I knew you on some level, other than some dude who sends sales to my site.

Though, if you have to see her name and the country the ID is issued from, unless I know you on a personal level, my answer is no.

Fair enough...

Did I mention that I love this thread?

You are entering into a voluntary contract and if you can not complete your part it is your job not to enter into it. I do have a lot of Canadian models on my site and I can and will give out ID's. Privacy laws are simple to deal with. In your model release you can have the model sign off on the privacy issues. And yes anyone can voluntarily give up their right to privacy - see rules of entering many contests, if you win.

Some may use a 3rd party like netbilling to handle scrubbing and such. Others may add in ccbill and epoch to spread out the risks/charge backs/etc.

1. CCbill has asked for ID's in the very recent past. I know as I supplied them one. I would also guess if you did not supply the ID they would make you take down the model in question. Even Rand from Epoch said that, which I think is stupid as hell. I think they should suspend the account if they could not supply them. Perhaps give sites a couple chances just in case something did get lost, but if it happened each time a request came in, then suspend them until they could provide it.

You mention them closing up. OK sure and why dont you just get an agreement that it will be destroyed after viewing. I can understand your concern. Perhaps set up a time and day with Rand at epoch and do a live webcam chat, show the id on screen. Sure ya he could screen cap it but be realistic. Fuck I do not know I see your side too and I just feel your a bit more paranoid than me.

I know when CCbill asked for ours. We sent them the 3 they asked for. Had all identifiable info blocked out besides DOB and her picture.


At the same damn time I am sure that someone could totally alter an ID and send it in to any company and they would not even notice. It is not like they are holding the real ID. Hate to even admit this but I did it once when a model of mine who I knew for a fact was old enough was waiting for her ID to come in the mail (lost it) and wanted to do some live cam work for quick cash.

The FBI has already gone through parts of the DVD industry, where I also work. They would only ask for a movie here or there, not all of them. Sometimes just a scene. It's the same thing.

That sucks. Sorry to hear that.

Hey, if the rules change and I can't play by them, I will move on to something else. If nobody will process for me, it may be a blessing in disguise and I would do something else. I'm not attached to anything, other than my own personal beliefs and morals, which can change at any time, with or without notice. lol Well, I have a lamp that I'm pretty fond of, but this business, I could probably do without if that day comes.

However, If better safety measures were put into place and processors and billers worked with law enforcement to check a models age, I would be OK with that. I trust the law when it comes to this matter, I don't trust the people in the porn industry.

But this is a different story...if the model is stupid enough to sign off the privacy thing, she has to deal with the consequences.

Again, I just don't see why either CCbill or Epoch is above the law. Why can't they get it like everyone else has to? This part I just can't be OK with.

Again, you are muddying the waters.

If your agreement with EPOCH/CCBill/ToeHee Billing tells you that you need to comply with THEIR terms of service you signed back when you joined them. That supersedes any other 'legalities' you want to lay claim to.

I signed away those rights when you joined, typically. It is not a 2257 issue. It is a T.O.S. issue of compliance.

Exactly. All it takes is one scumbag, and lets be honest, just because the company is legit, it does not mean they do not have at least one scum bag there.

Epoch's compliance department was out of control when I tried to add them to the mix.

They weren't happy with dozens of little nit picking things... on sites that have been active for years!
It finally became too much of a hassle and we did not add them.

We now deal with 7 different billing companies, Epoch will never be one of them.

And risk... Epoch takes on the risk of 1000's of Websites and being so, so do all of us.

Personally, I HATE it when any of them ask for something... But, at the end of the day, I have to respect it for the safety of my business, and yours.

I don't have access to that contract to see if that's the case or not. It very well may be, and if so, then I will just have to not use them.

Though, after reading all of these posts, the fact that they will take an ID, with EVERYTHING but the DOB and photo blacked out, then WHAT IS THE FUCKING POINT? I can photoshop that shit in 2 minutes, and where does that leave them? How does that protect them, when they have a blacked out ID with a girls photo that doesn't even look like her, and a DOB? Again, it's all bullshit. I know it, you know it, they know it. What will anyone gain from that ID, should I even give it to them? What's the point?

Oh... "Visa required it" they can say. BULL FUCKING SHIT. These companies use Visa as an excuse so much it makes my head hurt. How can Visa not approve something with Epoch or CCbill, but will approve it if you have your own merchant account? Either you use Visa or you don't. It's all 100% grade-a bullshit.

The point is, that they are covering their ass.

They can tell their merchant bank/VISA they contacted you, and that you provided them documentation that the models are of legal age, and issue is closed.

It's called, due diligence in C.Y.A..

Not all merchant banks are the same.

So CCB may use one merchant bank that is very lax on what is allowed, and EPOCH could use one that has stricter rules. Same as Verotel, or overseas processors can have rules, or lack of rules, that U.S. companies do/not have to follow.

I have seen this myself over the years personally, and those kind of disparities do exist.

:2 cents:

Risks? I don't know anything about such a crazy concept. Risks. Pffft.

Yes, but Visa is Visa. They blame everything on Visa, not the banks.

Well, I can't speak to that directly other than to say that is just a rep scapegoating them and not explaining the proper process for third party processing, and how it works.

VISA is typically more lax then merchant banks, and not all merchant banks are the same.

Or... it's some nut job employee trying to find out as much info as he can about 2 of my girls. How does any of us know really know what the real reason is?


Hey, if Visa contacted them, they can show me that email or document and we'll go from there. However, when Billy Bob from Epoch Support contacts me and says the models appear to be young, please forward my 2257 documents, they can pretty much FO.

Like you, I'm a straight shooter. Tell me how it is, don't sugar coat it or bullshit me. If it's the banks who say something, tell me that. If it's Visa, tell me that. If it's Epoch or CCbill's staff or they just want to break my balls, tell me that too. I will respect the truth. But don't just blow smoke up my ass and blame everything on Visa. I can see through that shit and it makes me lose all respect and trust. What's that old saying... "I may have been born at night, but I wasn't born last night."