DWB. Here is what you should do. Go into NATS. Do a member search for all active members billed by Epoch. It won't be many since we all keep Epoch last or next to last in the cascade because they are so expensive compared to your merchant account.

Write up an email with instructions for them all to cancel their memberships through Epoch. And include a link for them to re-sign up through your merchant account along with an extra free month included.

Then you've just saved the few Epoch rebills. Now simply take them out of the cascade.
Done.

Robbie, I like your style man. :thumbsup

Brilliant!!!!

Eh...it beats arguing with them. You've given them a couple of options (of course not ones that they are likely to do since they don't want any part of the FBI or any govt. agency either)

I woulda thought they would have had someone with some stroke there contact you like a real business and talk it over with you to make you feel a little more at ease. But if not...it ain't like Epoch is that big a deal to most people doing real sales anyway.

And like Dirty D said earlier...not only is price a bit of a factor, but the way they try to dictate to people what can and can't be on a website (not talking about illegal stuff). There is a reason that Epoch doesn't have the kind of coverage that they had a few years back. And most of us who deal with them know that.

But they were good for x-sales. I'll give 'em that.

You are spot on man.

And yea, someone with some stroke should be the one to ask for such things. "Joe" from "Support" ain't the one. As far as I know, Joe doubles as the company janitor when the place gets dirty.

Happy 40th. birthday for the one on the left!

If those pictures were posted on page 1, the next 10 pages would have been full of "No fucking way" comments.

I am not surprised Epoch stopped commenting. This thread hasn't been the best publicity for them.

:2 cents:

as a sick individual i can certify these girls arent even close to underage.

Actually it made sense to me as soon as you said it came from support and not compliance or risk


spaz

I recall a story when 2257 first started hitting about some temp programmer that dumped all the 2257 docs to a thumb drive & then started posting them on boards.

Another pet peeve of mind is when these corporations start writing their own rules, and acting like they are above the laws.

Right on Robbie, Epoch and every other cc processor has no right to see any records regarding models. They are not a law enforcement agency. I had a cc processor ask me for records in the mid 90's and I told them to suck a dick and set up my own merchant account. If people start giving in to these punks then we will all have to pay a price later down the road... :2 cents:

BTW. you don't know me but we met in June here in Vegas at the xbiz show.. I enjoyed talking to you and also reading your posts...

Based on epoch's stupid request, I think I will email ALL of the sponsor's I use and tell them I need to see the ID's of all of the models that are in the content that they provide to me to use...I wonder how far that will go..LOL

interesting thread..i also dont think it is just anyone's right to demand model releases.

although it is also their right not to allow you to process with them

hard call..but certainly not goign to start handing out releases to anyone who asks them

I would just tell little epoch to fuck off and move cc processing somewhere else..and read the agreement BEFORE I sign it..

This thread makes me wonder how many photographers or webcam studios I have worked with that would protect my identity like DWB or would of handed it over without question?

i dont think it says in their TOS that you have to give them special right above the fbi and law to obtain the documents... Dont have to give them up in a different manner.

Sure it might be easier to just send them via email. But its not his obligation to make their record retrieval any easier just because they arent the law.

Just sent some fakes to your email, let me know if you got'em.

You probably have very good reason to worry. It's just another reason to concentrate on your own site Aaliyah and not worry about shooting for others. It's not worth the small pay of a shoot to possibly end up getting hurt if your personal info were to get out. :(

:1orglaugh Dude, that is all time classic shit. How did you do that?

Their T.O.S. can say you have to jerk off in a cup monthly, and send it to them if you want their processing. If you read and sign it, then you are obligated to do what their agreement asks for, if you want them to process for your site, affiliates, and payments.

It has nothing to do with if demanding you jerking off in a cup monthly is legal or not in the U.S. or abroad.

It is a COMPLIANCE issue with their T.O.S. demanding to see docs (whether they blame it on VISA, merchant bank, or the boogie man) for asking to see them. Not a 2257 issue.

:disgust

Can I also have the id's of these two hotties ... please :1orglaugh

Someone please explain it to me, like I am 3 years old, how an ID that looks like this, is going to protect them, or verify a single thing?

http://digitaldope.com/images/board_pics/id.jpg

That's good enough for me!

Send it to Epoch and case closed. :pimp:pimp:pimp

Fucking love you man.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :thumbsup

1) I'm not seeing this part in their TOS.

2) If it's not a 2257 issue, why did they SPECIFICALLY ask for my "2257 documents" for those models? They didn't say anything about "compliance" or their TOS.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Robbie, I'm actually taking your advice on mailing the members. Thanks.

Hell, I think I'm going to do that to MY drivers license!

Thank you EPOCH, you have just solved the problem of Identity Theft. :pimp

Now I won't have to worry ever again about having my credit cards stolen or anything! :thumbsup


We need to take this to the national media and show everybody this great new way to prove age!

I know thats not my point...

re read it...

What i meant was ( now im not positive as i havent signed said agreement) that i doubt they have the method of just giving the ids over to them stated clearly like that. So that would make it the next method that is standard, correct?

I may be wrong, another assumption...

Dood, you MUST bring back your old avatar. :2 cents:

Can you believe I've been a victim of identity theft TWICE? It took YEARS to get the bulk of that mess cleaned up. Another reason I don't play around with peoples identity.

They are asking for your 2257 in regards to COMPLIANCE with their T.O.S..

Come on man. I know you are taking a stand and all, but I know you are an intelligent guy. You know what I am getting at here. The fact they are idiots and not using the right language for merchant bank, or what they are asking for. You know what they are getting at.

why's dat?
:disgust

Well yes and no. They could say, "please send us the IDs of the following models..." and that would sit a little better. I still would not give it to them, but it would get to the point and be very clear about what they need.

However, when they ask for "2257 documents" that is more than just an ID. That is the ID, along with the form that has the models personal information on it, including stage names, aliases, current address, and so on. There is a difference.

So I have to say, given they are the all trustworthy, all knowing and all powerful Epoch, I would think they would get their terminology down when requesting such a thing, and as Robbie suggested, have someone with a little stroke do the requesting. However, by them not doing so, for any of that, and having Joe from Support ask for this, it makes them look VERY unprofessional in my book.

It just fit better.

Thanks, I rubbed one out to the Cubana jalapeno (she better have been of legal age, damn it)... :winkwink:

http://www.zgeek.com/forum/gallery/f...3/jailbait.jpg

I see your point. I also go out of my way to protect the identity of the models I shoot, although I think I would comply with a legitimate request from an ISPS.

However, I don't blame you for your suspicion about a Tech Support dude requesting ID info on two models whom on first glance appear 18+, especially when they have similar features.

Hopefully you two can work it out... :thumbsup

ADG

I'll explain it to you like an adult.

1. You said you make MORE money with Epoch
2. We're in a recession
3. Pirating is more prevalent than ever
4. Free porn is everywhere, hurting sales even more

So instead of six pages of writing paragraph after paragraph, WHY IN THE FUCK NOT just fire up photoshop, send them that shit and be done with it?.....Gotdamn man, you did it just now to prove a point....So You're willing to throw away GOOD MONEY over this?...It doesn't make any fucking sense....SO WHAT if they can't verify it? SO WHAT if they're not a government agency.....Send them an id just like you showed AND BE DONE WITH THIS and keep making fucking MONEY!!!!!!!

I'm on your side and all but you're taking this shit way too far....Fuck man.

I always have respect for people that stand by their principles.

That still doesn't answer his question though...How does an id that has been redacted like that protect Epoch in any way, shape, or form?

And I can answer that one: It doesn't.

Starting to look more like a power trip on Epoch's part. If they really believe that those two girls are underage and that DWB isn't keeping proper records...then they should immediately terminate his processing with them and call the FBI.

Instead they are trying to order him to do something that as a producer he is NOT gonna do.

I can understand that Epoch has to make sure that they aren't processing anything illegal. But they pretty much fired off a command for him to do it via an email. They could have written him and asked him to call them and discuss it. Or any of a million ways that people do business together.

This whole thing points out one of the problems with the govt. sticking their nose where it doesn't belong (2257 laws) and the list of problems that arise because of it.

Also after reading this and googling up "girlfriend sex" I found Epoch & CC Bill to be the main and most times ONLY processors for sites that don't have any 2257 records at all.

How can that be? And why aren't they shutting off their processing to such sites? Seems as if they are talking out of both sides of their mouths on this one.

They want DWB to put them above the power that even the FBI has and say it is to protect them from VISA regulations. And at the same time they are processing VISA for sites that supposedly are breaking all those VISA rules.

Just seems crazy to me...

this issue is such a non-issue. If there is a legitimate issue with a models age, it should be brought to the attention of the police.

Epoch can't possibly verify any of the id's sent to them legally. The id's do nothing. ( other than open up a huge avenue for unscrupulous activity blackmail/identity theft/stalkers/ etc

Maybe it's a case of Epoch being able to say that they made every effort within legal means to verify? Perhaps that is what is needed to cover their ass in case someone were using underage content. That's the only thing I can see that makes sense.

But the processing for sites that don't have 2257 like girlfriend sites doesn't make sense to me.

without a doubt that is epochs intention ( barring something shady like a bad employee )

but there are a few problems with that. #1 and most important it may not be legal #2 without asking for every i.d. they havent done there best to verify much at all.



this totally makes sense and im sure is the main reason behind it BUT as we have seen the asking for documentation doesn't appear to be random nor does it appear to be regular.

i.e. off the top of my head i would assume if your intention was to make sure your clients had legal content would be to either check ALL id's or ask for a random sampling from EVERY client at signup and at various times throughout the partnership. The sites would be fully aware of this and dwb wouldn't be here asking why.


My guess would be the 2 solutions would hurt business ( bye bye gf sites who wouldnt be able to provide a random sampling of 2257 docs at signup = bye bye $$$ )

In a nutshell.. Getting rid of possible underage content doesnt make them any money, protecting themselves legally while not scaring away customers = $$$

although i dont really see how that argument would help them legally.
IMAGINARY COURT CASE - U.S. vs EPOCH
-----------------------------------------------
JUDGE - "epoch you are hereby charged with processing for a pornsite with underage content"

EPOCH - "it's a lie your honour, you see what we do is every so often we pick a site from a hat and ask for 2 of the models id's"

JUDGE - " oh well in that case , you are free to go "

EPOCH - "phew"

-----------------------------------------------

I do not have time to read this entire thread, but has anyone pointed out that ONLY those appointed by the DOJ have any rights to view ANY 2257 documentation. That is stated in the law.

Yes, but some people do whatever others say them, just to avoid any hassle.

Man, life isn't only about money.

BVF, it's not like that man, there is more to it and I wan to know the drill, and why, as it's not in the contract I have with them. At least I can't find it if it is. Also, I'm waiting on these docs to be sent to me as I am in Thailand, and that is NOT my place of record holding. So until those come, I don't have anything to do anyway, and it's pissing down rain which means I'm stuck inside anyway.

Robbie gets it.

Smokey gets it.

Old Jeff totally gets it.

andrej_NDC, gets something else. And that is... life is about money AND bitches. :2 cents: :winkwink:

WOW 6 fucking pages!!

Drama threads deliver. :2 cents:

Those girls are an easy 21. The one on the left has some saggage on the boob's. a teen wouldnt have that. unreal. The one in the right is clearly an adult.
Duke

I'm a family man...I want the bitch to be my wife. :1orglaugh

It's kinda like they have hired people to look for this kind of thing...and since it's pretty obvious that is an overwhelming task with hundreds, maybe thousands of sites and hundreds of thousands of images and movies to look at...so the low salary guy who has that job makes sure to ask for a few id's from different sites so he can say to his superior: "Hey look! I verified some more ID's this month. My job is necessary"