And a couple overweight guys in kenpo automatically makes it worthless, right? Why don't you try debating the merits of the art, and not a fucking beauty contest? Why don't you try reading what I have written? When did I say I was looking at kung fu and why did you feel the need to talk shit about it?

I've already stated that I was looking into BJJ and krav maga to round each other out. I'm sure I would only last a week tho, right?

What exactly is so bad about kenpo? I've read about it on bullshido and people there even say it depends on the school and the teacher. Are the techniques ineffective? Are they too flashy and worthless instead of simple and to the point effective?

I am looking for constructive thoughts on martial arts styles, not a fucking beauty contest, but that's all you've given me. "BJJ and Muy thai" just like every wanna be MMA fighter spouts. I want to know WHY. Convince me. A beauty contest isn't gonna do it, pal.

Thanks for the informative post, THAT is what I'm looking for, not a fucking beauty contest. As a kid I took TKD and it was all about point sparring, tournaments and flashy ineffective roundhouse kicks. Shit that will get your ass kicked if you try it on the streets.

I'm looking for something without all the flashy moves, I want something geared towards effective simple moves. So far I've been reading up on different styles and I will be visiting 3 schools next week. Right now I'm leaning towards the krav maga and BJJ combo, but I'm going to have to look into muay thai now. There is a school near me that teaches muay thai but it looks like a commercial MMA place that does kenpo and BJJ as well and has a big kids program.

What Anthony is trying to tell you is you won't, for the most part, see any BJJ black belts that look like your typical overweight McDojo black belt because BJJ sparring is done at full speed against another opponent that is also trying to submit you, and it is not teaching BS techniques against an opponent that is not fighting back.

The first time I ever took a BJJ class I don't know how I didn't puke. It is tough, intensive, and it will whip your ass into shape in no time. You also train full speed, and you condition your body to withstand pain, as well as how to still keep fighting when you are fucking exhausted. You will never learn that in Kenpo and Shotokan.

As for Krav Maga, it's really no different than the self defense system they teach you in the US Armed services. Teaching someone to disarm an attacker that has a gun pointed at you is not an effective martial art...

Kung Fu Masters who are out of shape, and can't even tie their belt around their expansive waists are NOT people you want to you how to fight. What's so hard to understand about that? Yah I wanna learn how to punch and kick the air from a guy who gets winded and starts sweating bowing to me.

UFC 1 - 4 posted by The Senator should be more than enough to convince anyone what they need to and NOT train in. It's your money, and more important, your life that is in question, and if you don't do your own due diligence, that's your own fault. Why isn't Kenpo Karate, Shaoliin Boxing, Krav Maga, etc used in MMA? Oh because it has rules, right?

This video is a 25+ years Kung Fu Shaolin Kenpo Master, in excellent shape and over 220lbs getting into a street fight with one of my friends, and fellow Bullshido Admin. Notice how he tries to eye gouge, and then gives up as he's getting his face caved in. By a 150lbs Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Blue Belt (Thatls one after white belt). Even with no rules, and HUGE SIZE disparity, the Martial Art that trains alive, and spars at 100% every single class will 9 out of 10 come out winning. Waste your time kicking and punching the air, or learn how to fight. No pre determined moves, "If someone chokes me, I'll do this" bullshit, that shit will get you killed.

I don't know Anthony from a hole in the wall, I don't know if he takes martial arts. All he's posted is a dis on kung fu when I'm not considering it, and a beauty contest of martial arts people and I don't need that bullshit.

Krav maga seems effective and you can learn a base in a short amount of time as well. And I've already stated that I'm considering BJJ as a compliment to another art.

I'm looking for debate, a WHY some art would be better than what I'm looking at. I've gotten a few good responses and I've responded nicely to those. Anthony's beauty contest isn't a valid reason to dismiss kenpo and I told him it was bullshit, how am I spouting off on advice when that's not a valid argument?

I'm not currently taking martial arts, I'm not here to defend one art over the other. I'm just looking for something that's effective without all the flashy point sparring bullshit.

Here you go:
Muay Thai - Training off and on since the early 90's
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu - Blue Belt training since 2003, with a few years out due to lower back injury
Judo - purple
MMA - 2 years 1-1-0 record both smokers.
Aikido - 2nd Kyu 2 years of training
Goju Ryu Karate - Shodan 4 years

Out of all that, Muay Thai, BJJ, and Judo are the ones I DIDN'T waste my time in.

Is there a difference between American Jiu Jitsu and BJJ? I have both options near me. Google doesn't bring up much about the American version.

Is krav maga an effective self defense art? Would krav maga and BJJ be an effective combination?

I'm not looking to do MMA competitions, I just want to get into better shape and learn effective self defense. I've never looking into muay thai, I'm going to have to research it and see what options I have near me.

Even the guys in here that took kenpo seem to classify it as an ineffective TKD type art, I'm going to rule that one out at this point.

Go judo. One throw on the concrete and the guy will have a broken shoulder or cracked skull. There's no time to arm-lock or choke an opponent when his buddies are charging at you.

Depends on the instructor, some AJJ schools are BJJ with western wrestling heavy in the curriculum. Some AJJ schools are just Japanese Jiu Jitsu and renamed.

Take this from me, after 2 years of Aikido, any martial art that instructs you to do this if someone does that, is in itself, a joke. In the real world, no one is going to give you time to think, he's grabbing my collar, should I do Kote Gaeshi, or just punch him in the face or knee him in the balls, etc. For anything to become muscle memory, it has to be practiced if I remember right, over 5000 hours. Or you can do it quicker, by actually sparring with a fully resisting opponent.

I've had training partners who quit TKD, Hapkido, KravMaga, etc and just focus on BJJ. A striker who doesn't know how to fight on the ground is going to lose 99% of the time.

You will love Muay Thai. You dont' spar as often as BJJ, but man, it's just a beautiful art that is so fucking destructive. You'll do things with your shin that you thought only a baseball bat to someone's leg could do. MMA isn't for everyone, but Muay Thai, can be practiced by everyone. I have shitty flexablity, half the time I can't kick higher than liver/rib cage, that doesn't stop me from enjoying and training in Muay Thai.


Rule out any martial art that does not allow you to spar at 100% resistance. Do not believe the bullshit that our martial art is too deadly for the ring or sparring. Pure Bullshido. If you have never used it in a "Rules" setting, how do you know it will work in a "No Rules" street fight.

Out of the two, BJJ is the best for an older guy. My first fight was at 37, last at 38. BJJ was always the easiest for me to train for in MMA. Just some food for thought. Good luck.

I would say a combination between traditional Jiu Jitsu and Aikido would be very good for that purpose.

How old and fit are you? I always think this should count in when you choose. :2 cents:

50 kicks in da cubes

both of my trainers teach judo throws with bjj for takedowns... i love the throws.... :thumbsup

I just turned 30. I'm pretty flexible, but starting to get out of shape. I'm 5'10 and 185 lbs. I've always been pretty slender but I'm starting to get a little stomache padding... no love handles yet :1orglaugh

Then I would say traditional Jiu Jitsu.

Gets you both the defense training and the regular training in real life. If you want to go a bit tougher, then BJJ. If you do the latter then Anthony will give you a traditional BJ :winkwink:

I used to practice Kyokushin as a regular student and participated into tournaments without doing any extra workout (specific training for competitions).. people used to say I was crazy, but if what I do in class doesn't work, I don't have any reason to continue doing it... I generally lost my fight because I used to lack in stamina I could do up to 6 minutes fighting, but when you are in tournaments you will have to go to a few rounds in order to win... my best result was 4th place...

if you click on the link for the video below you will see one of my fights a few years ago... there was over 10kg in body weight (and my opponent was about 20cm higher)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=tcvkoygnu9I

I only used my Kyokushin knowledge once when there was 4 guys robbing my parents house... I was able to handle them... to bad the cops took over 2 hours to show up...

BTW: in this 10 years of training I was not able to get the black belt (yet)... I Brazil we have one of the hardest Kyokushin black belt exams of the whole world (harder than in Japan)

I recommend that you go make 1 class of each of the martial arts that you have some interest in knowing... and only choose after that...
do you know that rule we have about what works for me might not work for you? it is also applied to martial arts!!

Brazil is a warrior country. Thanks for sharing!

That's very good advice. I have an intro session for kenpo that I already made for the 8th. Based on the advice in the thread here I think I will dismiss this one, but the appointment is already made and I might as well check it out.

I'm also going to check out the krav maga / jiu jitsu place next week as well. The wiki page on krav maga makes it sound like something I would like. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

There are a couple muay thai places around here that I'm going to look into and hopefully check out the second week of October. Thanks Anthony for the suggestion on muay thai.

Kajukenbo and Kyokushin look like nice choices as well, but there just aren't any schools here that teach those.

where are you located at?

If the AJJ ends up being a renamed japanese jiu jitsu, is it still something worth taking?

Based on my readings on the internet, krav maga seems to fit that bill. It seems to stress simple effective moves, without a 5 step technique. Seems to be whatever works, do it. Is that your understanding of it? The wikipedia page on krav maga makes it sound pretty appealing to me.

In most of the actual real life fights I've been in, the majority have ended up on the ground. That's why I'm wanting to take some kind of jiu jitsu.

I'm pretty flexible, it's probably one of my stronger points over brute force. Thanks for the muay thai suggestion, I'm going to look into a couple of the schools here for that.

I totally agree with this.

Thanks Anthony, that's the kind of post I was looking for, sorry for butting heads with you earlier. You've given me a lot to think about and a lot of good suggestions. Definitely going to check out the local muay thai places, there's 3 or 4 of them within half an hour of me.

Do you have any suggestions on picking a school and instructor? Questions to ask, things to look for?

I live in Minneapolis, MN. Not too far from the Mall of America.

Buy a samurai sword. No one fucks with a dude carrying a samurai sword.

Bro, you have Pedro Sauer in your area http://www.mmaacombatzone.com/ one of the most highly regarded BJJ Black Belts around.

They also have MT.

Is there any reason why no one has mentioned Keysi? Should it be filed under Bullshido or is it just unknown?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=zVWyqBdE5RI

I'll add it to the list of places to check out, thanks :thumbsup

http://www.americanfistlaw.com/ is another local MMA place I was thinking of checking out also.
http://www.runningtiger.com/ is the kenpo place in St Paul

I've never heard of that one. One of the local places also offers Wing Tzun which I've never heard of either.

I was hoping this would be a relatively easy decision, but I still have more questions than answers :1orglaugh

muay thai vs TKD



muay thai looks straight to the point and pretty effective.

A good tradition TKD school (ITF system) can be hard to find, but are quite good. Have 25 years experience, though to be effective in a real life situation you simply have to add in some strength and power training also some grappling both of which aren't really taught all that much or at all in any schools.

No one system is perfect, and as was mentioned earlier at least 95% of martial arts schools are crap, and pretty much a waste of time. No matter what style you learn make sure you do at least some basic grappling training, because most situations end up on the ground, and once you are down there your TKD, Karate, zip-de-doo or whatever isn't going to do anything for you.

Damn that looks so familiar.
I trained TKD for about 7 years and then got tired of it.
Too much show. Too little efficiency.

So I figured Muay Thai would be good to develop better and more effective stand up.

Dude did I get knocked the fuck out on my first training.
Just like in the video. I tried a fancy headkick, he grabbed it and followed up with a lowkick.

Then out of nowhere an elbow from hell to the temple. Lights out. Welcome to MT.

:2 cents: :thumbsup

Does anyone have suggestions for picking a school? Things to look for, questions to ask? I'm going to be checking out 4 or 5 places in the next couple weeks.

my favorite muay thai fighter....

this represents what muay thai is all about..

the fights start about 1 min in..

I would check out the place Anthony mentioned for sure. Its close to you, looks like there are some really reputable mma people and it looks like they have Muay Thai and BJJ. Looks like a win win to me.

black belt in Beer Fu and 5 Knuckle Fist Of Fury

currently working on a big epenis belt in keyboard warrior Jiu-Jitsu

I'd say mix it up - get a feel for what works for you. I trained in Okinawan Kenpo and earned a 2nd Degree Black Belt, but I have to tell you, it's more about you than the system. How in shape are you? How much time you want to put into this, and what do you expect to get out of this? You don't need to be trained by a Grand Master or MMA Pro to achieve your goal of rounding out your skills. I do believe if you train in Kenpo, you'll need to supplement that with some ground skills, because they focus on the waist up. Good luck with your training.

Hey, love the video...thanks for the share.

How was the Okinawan kenpo? I understand that's different from American Kenpo? Do you find it to be pretty effective? Can you elaborate a little on the kinds of stuff they teach?

I'm pretty flexible, in semi-decent shape but I probably couldn't run a mile right now in under 12 minutes. I'm looking to do some kind of martial art once or twice a week. I'm not looking to compete in MMA or anything, I'm looking for something for self defense and exercise.

I'm still looking into muay thai, and I'm torn between muay thai / bjj or krav maga / bjj. I read somewhere that "you should train how you want to fight, because you'll fight how you trained." That's why I'm considering krav maga, it's geared strictly towards self defense and they don't teach "if someone does this, do that" I'm also checking out a kenpo place next wednesday.

posting an update for everyone that gave advice :thumbsup

I kept my appointment and checked out the kenpo place. Instructor was nice, and it looked like everyone was enjoying the lessons. It reminded me a lot of TKD but with more emphasis on kata and forms and memorizing techniques. They practiced with a partner but didn't use pads or strike each other. Kenpo doesn't really seem to be what I'm looking for right now.

I also checked out an aikido school after a couple recommendations in the thread here. The school was neat, and students were practicing with fucking swords. Pretty badass, but not really what I'm looking for.

Next I checked out a muay thai / bjj school near me based on advice from Anthony. Students fought in a boxing ring and the moves looked really effective, but I'm looking for more of a self defense training than training for competition. This was real close to what I was looking for though.

I decided on doing krav maga. I found a school near me that is run by an isreali team. Students practice full strength with each other using pads and protective gear. Pretty similar to the muay thai stuff I saw, in fact some of the elbows and knee strikes are taken from muay thai. This school placed an emphasis on self defense which I really liked and was looking for. They also deal with some grappling, which I asked about. Besides the lessons with full contact pads, there are also sparring sessions on Saturday mornings.

I've signed up for a krav maga course, with lessons twice a week, that will get me up to an intermediate level. After that course is done, I'll probably take the intermediate lessons once a week and do jiu jitsu once a week also.

If anyone wants a little more info on krav maga, there's a very good 5 part "Human Weapon: Krav Maga" linked here https://youtube.com/watch?v=XcyrG...eature=related

Thank you everyone for the advice and discussion :thumbsup

Krav Maga is the best I've taken for self defense, though I've noticed I use a lot of BJJ in street fights as well..

For me, I will try to keep a fight very short if it's on a paved surface. If it's on the grass, I'll immediately take someone down and roll all day.

In a nutshell.. I find it better to be more well rounded. I also wrestled in junior high and high school a majority of the time(did greco and freestyle during the off seasons..) plus judo..


Every person I know who thinks they're way tough 'cause they're a black belt in Karate or something lasts about 30-45 seconds when we spar.. but, those who've taken Karate + BJJ + MT or something are much better off than someone with just BJJ or MT in my opinion.

Good choice on the Krav, though. It'll help you a lot.