If you agree on all points then this thread is dead, you have too disagree on something :winkwink:

Not all designers/coders are unprofessional ambulance chasers.

There are many who do good work for others, and there are the guys I work with regularly that do excellent work for me. Even though they cost more than others, they are professionals, and I like the way they conduct business.

They demand a premium and are worth it. They make new projects, and my life, so much easier.

When I hand it off, I know it is in good hands, and will be done timely. If there is a problem, I know I will get notification, and it will be fixed. I will not have to chase them down to get some un-professional excuse as to why it was not done. I prefer working with the same people, and once you find those who are professionals. They typically stay busy.

That said, there is the flip side of the low ballers most complain about who never want to pay for anything. I'll give you a quick example on that side of the coin...

Current project in sig. I have CMS/script already done, customized, designer in place, and all you need to be up and running in 1-2 weeks (depending on workload).

A decent number of those who contact me think price is too much for CMS/script or whatever. Claim they will just go have their own built, get their own designer, cheaper content whatever.

Ok. So let's look at this rationally.

I have everything in place to have you a fully functioning website you can drive away in 2 weeks time, including CSS/html, installations, integration, including payment API and any tweaks and mods, including content for a set price.

You are a cheapskate and so you want to cut corners and do the following....

1. Try and find a quality coder who will build you a CMS/script to do the same thing.
2 .Try and find a quality designer who can do what you need in design.
3. Try and get comparable content at the price point I can offer.
4. Hopefully your designer can code css/html because not all can.
5. The CMS/script development time can take months! Not only to get initial writing out of what you need, and want. How you want it to work, look, and so on. Then work out the kinks and testing, plus fixes and final mods before skinning, and then whatever....

The point being, best case scenario is 2-3+ months costing you even more in time, and eventually money, trying to nickel and dime to get it cheaper. In the end, you will probably have an inferior product depending on where you go. Where you can get a total solution for a few bucks more.

The point being, you could have been making money for those 2-3 months instead of trying to reinvent the wheel to save a few bucks. Plus that is assuming your coder and designer you find, and pick even FINISH the product to begin with.

It is a lot more complex than most people think when it comes to building a good website on a solid platform, and when it comes to a flagship type of site, or one you just want running stable. It is worth the added cost to pay for the better designer and coders.

Unfortunately, their are few professionals available, and most that are that caliber, have steady work and clients. Most do not think of it, but the time lost trying to be cheap is a MAJOR FUCKING PISSER and in the end will cost you more in time/money/aggravation then it's worth.

This is so true:-

Hilarious!

lmao the animation is funny as hell.

I find that good designers who know what the fuck they are doing usually get snapped up pretty fast for a decent slary paying job rather than making money freelance.

Sure they can make more money freelance, but when you put the time the spend with retards and people bitching about prices it's much easier to work a 9-5 or whatever.

True dat.

I'd also like to say, I'm not a designer, I'm just going by what my designer friends have told me, haha... Though I do, as a programmer, run into those el-cheapo bastards who want me to recode Facebook for $150.

mainstream clients are way slower moving then adult industry people, so if you try to get a mainstream client he thinks and thinks more and talks and talks more and needs to change things and ask for agreements and nda's and junk and bullshit

adult is yes or no here is the money on to the next thing

I have that are in mainstream 100% they just move so damn slow

The basic idea behind a support nightmare is that a certain client keeps needing more and more time. If you're committed to a single set price, that indeed becomes a nightmare.

On the other hand, when you do projects for larger companies, NGOs, the government, etc., you typically have a contract that specifies exactly what you're required to deliver.

Plan well, and you'll also have a maintenance contract that includes a set number of hours for support and upgrades, with additional billing for additional support and development.

And that's where the real money is. Not in single orders, but in long-term contracts.

Most designers who just sell single designs are extremely vulnerable. A busy month can mean they have to turn down work, and a slow month means their income grinds to a halt. It's hard to plan ahead that way - you'll never know how many orders you'll be getting in the next half year.

If you add service, maintenance, training and support agreements to the mix, you can build a constant stream of income. That makes it far easier to plan ahead and grow your business.

Well said Libertine.
:thumbsup

Fiddy.
:pimp

Sig.

It is not one of the worst paying industries if you know how to do business. That would be like wondering how fast food places make money selling 99 cent burgers.

Perhaps your perception of it is off because you only see designers making advertisement threads here. Its like assuming that tgp's don't make money either because people are complaining about conversions here on gfy. But if it was such a terrible industry, there would not be so many of them existing and making money.

Ask Zuzana who just bought a new beach house how terrible it is. :upsidedow

if you want quality work. you have to pay for it. being in the construction industry as well, many people that want an estimate would prefer i slave all day for just 100 bucks. They aren't willing to do the work themselves and don't want to pay for our work. They think that its ok for me to use 3 guys plus myself and only have to pay me $500 total to pay for all my labor and materials.

In this business its the same. there is someone that will do it kind of cheap so they will go with that person cuz they are cheaper, and they just want a throw together site. In reality, you should want a great design that is going to get your surfer to stay and convert. if you dont really have the money, then do it yourself. you will learn alot along the way and get a better respect for the creativity that a great designer can do. takes a while to develop that creativity. i have gotten better in the year i have been trying to make stuff. and have a way to go.

Webmasters. try paying a decent amount and you will get a great product. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. its true to all things in any industry. if i had top dollar i would pay it and expect to get a top dollar product. that isnt rushed and that looks great.

"and expect to get a top dollar product"

top dollar doesnt mean the guy wont be a junky slacker lazy fucker, its gotten to a point years ago where is something is important ome ill hire 2 guys to do the same fucking work, if both do it ill pay em both, ill pick at the end whos design or development work i like better, at least I dont have to wait 4 weeks to find out i dealt with a excuse generator just to have to start over again with a new guy.

another thing is also it seems noone here understand that if you dont give a deadline to someone they will take their lovely time, anyone you hire for anything you set the dealine, they miss it explain you move on, if you dont do this expect a business card design to take 52 weeks

by not rushed i simply meant there was a deadline for the job but the pay was more then sufficient to where they didnt have to move on to the next project, rather they made enough to where they can finish my project in a timely manner and make it look great.

OK, clear to me that not one single designer in this thread has ever received an project delivered in the proper way.
Properly planned out with milestones, review processes etc etc etc

If you did you would realyse that missing a deadline is almost impossible unless the client extends the deadline as he dident like the direction in one of the milestone reviews, added to the plan etc etc
I never said in this thread that deadlines couldent be extended, of course they can and they will.....however it is the way it done today "In most cases" that is unacceptable.

I will leave it at this as well who am i to tell you how to run your business right :)

PS: Dont blame being late on the creative process, this will scare the people with money far far away and just makes you look like a bad designer....
If you have developed a design you dont like and the deadline is closing in, present it to the client, admit that you do not like it too much and ask for more time, but have a new PLAN and new DIRECTION for the right layout/design.
Business people LOVE that stuff as they feel in control and in TOUCH with what your company is doing.

/Just got up so im sure this post i littered with spelling mistakes lol, live with it