over Fitty Broke Responses .....

Thanks for the "deep" analyze... have you ever considered that it's the opposite way around? :1orglaugh

Serves them right for making a remake of Fame. What in the fuck were they thinking? Oh this will work because of Step, Up and every other lame ass dance bullshit?

MGM make simply awful films

The most common long-term projections:
Gaming industry: expected to double in size in the next 10 years.
Film industry: slow growth over the next 10 years.
Music industry: significant losses over the next 10 years.

MGM is failing because it made some seriously bad choices, not because of piracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...yn-Mayer_films <- note the lack of hits in recent years
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...grossing_films

who cares. these studios have been churning out brain dead garbage for the braid dead for years now.

if they all went under it would be a blessing and might even raise the iq of the population a point or two.

good riddance.

you don't know what you are talking about, major artist are making more money today becuase to things like corporate sponsorship of their live tours, mainly because they don't have to take an ass raping (90% off the top) to the record companies.

it only the clueless talent who lets the control them that are losing out, the smart talent realize that 5-10% commission (radio head) on their ticket sales thru their affiliate link is worth way more than the entire value of the album (they made more from the free downloads because of these commission then they would have made if they sold them at full price thru the label).

steve albini wrote a great piece about how the music industry rips off musicians


http://www.permanentrecordstudios.ne...mwithmusic.pdf

But that isn't the case, from reports/research you can purchase yourself along with Court records with the mpaa and others, fighting piracy... proof given that new piracy/growth in piracy in regions, sparks massive growth in entertainment related sales. As new 'easy to use' piracy has been created, more growth has happened.

People that pirate spend money.... people that extreme pirate, are collectors. They buy the most of everything.


It's not my "deep" analysis... you can find the research online. You can pirate the paid stuff if you don't want to spend the money.

this is the reason why the RIAA is pissed at "piracy"

because they know that if artist realize that you can treat bit torrent like the "radio" cut the record companies out of the loop and pay for the production themselves (which they are doing out of their 10% anyway) they will make way more money.

clueless morons who blindly accept the RIAA propoganda that filesharing is "hurting" the artist

all it is doing is killing their ass rape the artist business model., and all i can say is about fucking time.

Lol if piracy only makes things better, why not to simply legalize it? Why ya'all piracy supporters keep saying you're against copyright infringement, and then list all of your pro-piracy arguements.

If it's so good, let's just abolish copyright laws for the sake of the greater benefit of the human race.

Who needs all of that hilarious bullshit "hey we're against copyright infringement, but see how good the piracy is". Just get it straight.

The White House is too busy paying back political favors to the SEIU and the UAW..

We do not need to research much. Just go to all the earlier comments about pirate bay becoming a "pay" site, and you'll read that no one is/was willing to pay a dime. Just like you, they argued that pirates paying for the stuff. But when they face it, they are not even willing (or able) to pay a few bucks per month... :1orglaugh :1orglaugh:thumbsup

I thought that Sony bought MGM for a $5 billion a few years ago?

Clearly you haven't done any research and you keep assuming....

Take some time, do some searches, use places like Jupiter Research and read things like...

"It is safe to say that active usage of online music content is one of the best predictors of increased consumer purchasing," Aram Sinnreich wrote in the report. He's talking about all music, pirated, traded, purchased, etc..


Check over markets in other countries and in N. America... find that digital growth is took over, live shows are growing... shifts in markets do not mean problems, as 2005 year end stats show.

This is a baby amount of data... you can find 10,000's of hours of research data to go through. I'm more amazed these industries are still growing... that's not normal, even though we all like to pretend it is.

What's an odd stat to find is the Countries that have hardcore piracy laws and enforce them, also have the slowest growth in the movie, music, game and software Industries.


Oh yeah, it's not like Pirate Bay is going to have some higher % of buyers than the rest of the net, which is actually remarkably low if you ask them if they would pay for something that is normally free. But if you ask how many have purchased music/movie or games in the last 6 months, it's not so low.....

The statistics are telling a different story, all over the world.

I'm not saying piracy makes everything better...some piracy is extremely bad. But you have to look at piracy at more than one way.

I understand real piracy is like software/music, etc when they duplicate a single copy and resell it as an original to unsuspecting buyers, suppliers and stores. That's nasty....

The piracy on torrents, tubes, newsgroups, forums is duplicated piracy. The original owner still profited from the original sale... the product isn't sold as an original or normally even sold, it's traded, in general people aren't profiting from the duplicated item as a resold-original. That isn't say some aren't making money, just not from selling your product as the original.

Like it or not, these are different types of piracy (2 of I think 6) and the frame set of the people doing the piracy, buying it or selling, are extremely different.



1 million people got kicked off xbox for pirating a game, after buying an xbox, subscribing to a monthly system and of course buying other games... point, pirates spend money.

Piracy sucks... but it's not going away... 3 years of bitching and it grew. So I suggest everyone takes the time to learn more about it, start understanding it and finally learn how to profit from it in your own ways.

The crash of the DVD market caught many of these studios by surprise. Most studios used to get buoyed up by DVD sales. Can't rely on those anymore.

Paying the same for something worth less DOES cause profit loss.

stealing equals more sales..???

Dude, the first "research" you are refering to, is 8-9 years old, so it's useless. Back in those times you also had stuff like mp3.com where "amateurs" actually made some money off publishing their work online. But all that was destroyed when piracy came along on bigger scale. Today you can download almost any album in 10 seconds from a huge database like pirate bay, and pirates are not paying for a download they already did for free..

The second report is 5 years old, and let me learn you some basic math; Percental change is not the same as change in units. The total value show a bigger decrease in physical sales, than the total value of digital downloads. This is of course maybe because of price difference, but there is nowhere it says the smaller increase in legal digital downloads is "caused by pirates". The increased amount of humans and surfers is the main cause, along with technology. Without piracy, the numbers would probably be much much much.. higher.

You are assuming too much with your "correlations" - or just repost manipulated pro-piracy propaganga. :)

surprise you and your fucked up way of thinking, another stupid asshole that makes money off someone elses work

one by one everyone is losing money to those that steal from them, more ways to advertise today then ever but the same singers who'd make 100 million a year in if it was 1985 are making 5 million now, so many have to come out of retirement because the royalty checks became a joke.

This is the only business where assholes like you who steal and help others steal can sit behind a computer and act as if you are doing everyone else a favor.

bullshit

name one artist who made 100 million a year ( that 1 billion a year in gross sales ) that has had to come out of retirement because the royalty checks are a joke.


the old 1985 contracts screwed the artist royally, they made all their money off the tours not royalties.

an established artist comming out of retirement today releasing the songs independently can make more money without the studios just cashing in their previously paid for fame (remember promotion cost are charged out of their 10%).

radio head proved it they made more money from every free downloader (because of the affiliate commissions on their tour ticket sales) then they would have made selling them the album at full price.

Many of their fans paid full price (got to keep 10 X the royalties) and the average price netted them 4.65 times the income (including the free downloads as zero-- see above).


the 90/10 split and you pay all the cost out of your share bullshit is what is dying i can't believe you are trying to defend that ass raping as "protecting the artist".

Umm... to see a trend you have to look at many years in a pattern... So you have to go backwards..


Anyway, I posted an example... one of 10,000 I said... It's really simple, stop being a lazy shit stain and go research more info yourself....

Rather than pretending like you have a clue making yourself look like a moron.

You mean the only business where people can accuse others of false realities and keep their teeth too, because they are on a forum


Why don't head back to the business where you copied everyone else's ideas, and you do steal them to this day... and call them your own empire. Because of you, people like AFF had to do more.

2004 Total Movies Released: 567 Total Combined Gross: $9,327,315,935
2005 Total Movies Released: 594 Total Combined Gross: $8,825,324,278
2006 Total Movies Released: 808 Total Combined Gross: $9,225,689,414
2007 Total Movies Released: 1022 Total Combined Gross: $9,665,661,126
2008 Total Movies Released: 1037 Total Combined Gross: $9,705,677,862
2009 Total Movies Released: 1177 Total Combined Gross: $7,596,626,766
(2009 figures incomplete, total movies scheduled to be released, gross to date)
--

Looks like the movie industry is doing OK. Despite piracy. Odd?

Maybe MGM should have just not made such SHIT films and then they wouldn't be in this mess?

Last title? A remake of 80s hit FAME.

It is THAT to blame, not fucking piracy.

Great post... I'm afraid it has falling on 'blinded' deaf ears around here.

I know 2 guys personally, who're both musicians and were able to pull a decent living for over a decade by just recording and selling CDs. They do not tour, and never do any live events - they just create and record music. Maybe they're not your typical artists, but that's how they work and earn their money, by recording and selling CDs - and they have every right in the world to live the life they choose.

Both of them were hit by piracy BADLY. Their CDs do not sell anymore because they're freely available at any torrent site, and they do not do live events to make it up for the lost income. None of the two is recording any new music anymore and have to earn their living through other means.

Torrents and other file sharing sites can be a cool way of promotion for artists, when they want it, and when it's THEIR choice. What pisses me off is that none of the artists has any choice any more - the damn thieves are holding them all for ransom. It's either "free music and make money touring" model or "just fuck off we'll steal your music anyway". Copyright laws are not worth shit nowadays because they're not enforceable - them worthless parasites are holding us all for ransom, and trying to legitimize themselves by pointing to a few success stories where artists were able to use their godaweful sites for promotion.

I really HATE thieves, those lowlife scammers who're cannot create anything original to save their worthless lives, bubbling their delusional pro-piracy arguements, when I see it with my own eyes - two great musicians, two great pesonalities and good friends of mine, are now going down the low road, have to keep to low profile jobs because they're not really suitable for anything else in life except for creating music, start drinking, and have their lives ruined by piracy... Not to mention our own industry which is now only a shadow of it's former self.

For every torrent site success story, there's a dozen lives RUINED by that same torrent site. There's only ONE pro-piracy arguement - if I cannot run my torrent site, I'll have to go back to flipping burgers because I'm worthless parasite and my only chance in life to pull some decent living is to rip talented people off.

so 2 artist out of millions are not able to make money from selling records only, justify screwing over millions of artists in 90/10 split. Funny part is those contracts are so totally screwed up that the artist have to pay the record companies money 90% if they sell the song on their own site.

they do all the work and get nothing for it.

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/11/...-Off?art_pos=3

bands like the eagles are actually considering revoking the copyright of their work (filing revokation notices) to force their music in the public domain so they can actually make money from their own self promotion.

That is a very sad new...

this btw is the moronic that attempted to kill the vcr. Just becuase your friends are too clueless to adapt to the new technology (and the new fair uses that it brings) doesn't give them the right to destroy my rights.

Figuire out the "put your stuff on the tape cassettes and sell it to the vcr owners" solution to this problem.

The one that will turn torrents into the new biggest money in history of the music industry.

if you want could refer them to me, since i have already taught dozens of musicans on exactly how to do this.

They do not want to ban any new technology including your gooddamn torrent site, they just do not want their music on it. Can you fucking moron understand that much?

the problem with piracy is that nobody pays for crap anymore.
Everybody is afraid of educated customers because they'll be forced to think
and not just regurgitate some old shit and sell it as new.

For every story of an artist failing with CD's you have 10 more that made it big, with piracy, torrents, youtube, and the 10,000's of music driven websites online.

The music Industry is hurting in CD sales, but digital sales are up big time. Even without piracy, CD's would be going away.. they suck, they break, they breakdown with age. MP3's, don't.

You can find, untold numbers of people that could never sell one song before, now sell songs every day of the week.

You post some bullshit, and then say "search for yourself"... Yeah, that makes me look like a moron. :1orglaugh

The stuff you posted so far, is jurassic, and it does not even prove what you say. Go to the forums and blogs, and you'll see what pirates actually say today. If there are 10.000(??) researches, then please post 1 link, one only, to some economic peer-reviewed research.

I agree, however, that money are made out of piracy. But it ends up in the wrong hands. :2 cents:

If you and your friends are worried about the artists, then why don't you collect and send them money directly? Or start a website, where they can upload their music, and the downloaders pay? How about that? 0/100 split won't help them much. :2 cents:

How is to the end of 2005, Jurassic? That statement makes you look really stupid. It's about history, going back and looking... and it was the first result on Google.

US Movie Market Summary 1995 to 2009, the data is from the mpaa and 09 isn't done. Now... This a big overview, we can't see all the breakdowns within the market. That shows exactly where DVD sales went...


http://www.the-numbers.com/market/



How about this one.. "95% of all music is pirated" <-- damn!

http://www.ifpi.org/content/section_...s/dmr2009.html

"The digital music business internationally saw a sixth year of expansion in 2008, growing by an estimated 25 per cent to US$3.7 billion in trade value. Digital platforms now account for around 20 per cent of recorded music sales, up from 15 per cent in 2007. Recorded music is at the forefront of the online and mobile revolution, generating more revenue in percentage terms through digital platforms than the newspaper (4%), magazine (1%) and film industries (4%) combined."


Funded by the Gov, wanting to find problems with Piracy... oops.
http://www.ivir.nl/publicaties/vanei...ranslation.pdf

"The research shows that the economic implications of file sharing for welfare in the
Netherlands are strongly positive in the short and long terms. File sharing provides
consumers with access to a broad range of cultural products, which typically raises
welfare. Conversely, the practice is believed to result in a decline in sales of CDs,
DVDs and games."


Again... one search, all in top 5 listings.. if you want anymore data, you can read it by the 10,000's from every niche, sub-niche in the niches, across countries, languages, ages... technology based... so much, it's truly 10,000's of hours of data.

This time... why don't you do the leg work rather than spouting off again.

If the movie industry is doing so poorly then why were 2007 and 2008 record box office years?

http://arstechnica.com/media/news/20...ce-in-2008.ars

Don't blame on pirates what can be attributed to bad management and a poor business model. The movie industry through the MPAA has tried to litigate themselves into a lucrative business model for the better part of the decade. Only problem is the numbers don't back up the theory that piracy is what killed MGM and not just bad movies or poor business choices. The fact is most of the movie studios are late to the party. They should have had digital streaming movies based on subscription services like Netflix on demand 5 years ago. That would have stopped a lot of the DVD market loss bleeding and prepared them for the future. Instead they tried to stifle technology and sue people until they made their broken antiquated profit models work. Piracy is here to stay and that is a fact. So instead of crying it is up to smart business people to find models like netflix on demand which will allow the customer to get a high quality product without pirating.


http://torrentfreak.com/sony-ceo-ple...loaded-091027/

Here is the potential problem with this - I am not supporting the fact that record labels screw over just about every artist with their contracts - it is just a thought.

For every band that makes it big and sells a lot of records and gets famous, there are dozens that go nowhere.Yet the record label still took a chance on them and signed and supported them. Their records didn't sell and the eventually the artist was dropped or they quit or whatever. This happens all the time. So the big sellers end up supporting the unknowns and new bands. It is no different with movies. The big movies make the money and this allows the studios to take a chance and make other smaller movies, many of which end up making very little or no money.

So when the record labels stop making money they stop signing and developing bands/artists/ What you start go get is what we are seeing today which is where they sign acts to singles development deals. Instead of signing a band to a record deal and guiding them as they recorded a record and hit the road to support it and build up a fan base over a number of years they have an artist record a couple of singles, put them on itunes and other outlets and they see what happens. If the singles hit then they record an album and try to sell that, if not they drop/ignore the artist and move on.

So while established artists may make more money with piracy because it helps them grow their fan base (BTW they got famous using the evil system that screwed them over, but had the resources to highly publicize them and get them to start status) there are many acts out there that end up not getting a fair shake because they couldn't produce a hit single right out of the gate.

We are starting to see the watering down of the entertainment business. Everyone complains about shitty music and shitty movies, but these are now what gets made because the companies that put this stuff out there have a smaller margin for error or risk so they go with what they think can make money now, and they don't worry about developing talent. It is kind of like if you sell your house you paint the walls white or light brown or some kind of bland color that will appeal to as many people as possible. It doesn't have an character, but it appeals to the large group of the masses.

If you thought record labels screwed artists over before, wait until we get to the point where they just record an album and give it away for free and the label decides to take a piece of the band's merchandising and touring revenue. The reason you don't see many acts complain right now about piracy is because they make a lot of money touring and selling merchandise. When they lose a good deal of that to the record labels, you might start hearing more complaining.

Just a thought.

If you believe these numbers that were posted above:
2004 Total Movies Released: 567 Total Combined Gross: $9,327,315,935
2005 Total Movies Released: 594 Total Combined Gross: $8,825,324,278
2006 Total Movies Released: 808 Total Combined Gross: $9,225,689,414
2007 Total Movies Released: 1022 Total Combined Gross: $9,665,661,126
2008 Total Movies Released: 1037 Total Combined Gross: $9,705,677,862
2009 Total Movies Released: 1177 Total Combined Gross: $7,596,626,766

Yes, they are record years, but they are having to release twice as many movies as they did just 5 years ago to make the same amount of money. Isn't that the same complaint we are hearing in this industry? Almost every day you see posts where people talk about how they are working twice as hard, just to make the same amount of money or less than they did just a few years ago.

2002 and 2005 is jurassic when we are talking about technology. And if you believe Google rank means more than peer-review, then you have a problem with validating sources.


I see a decrease in number of sales. So that means they didn't go to the movie or bought the DVD, after downloading for free.. after all.. or what?

Yes, and it's not pirates who sell their music as affiliates. It's like the write; LICENSE partners. Without piracy, legal partners would make much more money. :2 cents:

Yes, of course there is an overall transfer of material welfare and increase in cultural welfare. That's the fucking point of piracy (and socialism): "sharing is caring". Jesus... That still doesn't prove that pirates pay MORE money to Mr. Music - or Little Miss X . How are you going to compensate for their loss? And how are you going to compensate for the lower quality?

It's already in place in most countries. The problem is not really the model and technology, but all the regional differences. Without a free world market, and protection of it, there are unfornutalely many limits. Hopefully they will solve both issues soon.

Were talking about piracy, we need to look back BEFORE the Internet... so please stop pretending that the data is Jurassic....

Much of the research is peer-reviewed, just because a blog talks about it, and links to the source, doesn't meant he source isn't reviewed. Almost all the purchased "marketing research" is reviewed, and allowed in Gov, Courts, used in Universities all over the world accept and use this market data.

Even the MPAA can't hide the facts anymore... they can't lie, twist, or anything... Piracy is making them grow, every report is showing it, and it's driving them mad.



Decrease? Are you bind?

Years per # set --->
(1995) $5.29 $5.59 $6.51 $6.77 $7.30 $7.48 $8.13 $9.19 $9.35 $9.27 $8.95 $9.25 $9.65 $9.85 $9.93 (so far 2009)

That's growth, making 09 (which isn't over) the biggest in 14/15 years, actually it's EVER!

Damn near doubled... that's the most fucked up degrease I have ever seen.



Nice 2 cents... but it's not backed by peer research.



So basically, you read the paragraph I posted and not the report... that's what I expect from gfy's finest.



Anyway...... moving on.

We already know 08/09 had the biggest box office records in history, single days, weekends, weeks and months, with the longest running ever too. One weekend after another, for 2 years.

How do they have the biggest 'ever' and yet, still have to release double the movies?


Simply... you re-release movies.... yep, those numbers include remakes, redo's, making movies digital and releasing them again.. Not really "new" movies, but "released" movies. Shit people don't want to buy, MGM......

When managers fail, they like to blame it on someone else, piracy in this case. While in fact, its just the stupid decisions of stupid people running the show.

Comparing sneakernet with 100mbps lines, VHS with Blue-Ray writers, audiogalaxy with rapidshare and high-speed torrents etc.. yes, that is jurassic.
Back in those days pirates were actually pirates, and not spoiled kids who tried to justify their activities in public...

If you conclude and read the data they way you want to, then it's useless to link only. In the paper you posted above, they conclude the opposite of what you trying to say :upsidedow



You are blind. Read what they say; Note: in order to provide a fair comparison between movies released in different years, all rankings are based on ticket sales, which are calculated using average ticket prices announced by the MPAA in their annual state of the industry report.
And you know as well as me, that the amount of piracy exploded on this side of the millenia. From 2002 there is a decrease in ticket sales each year, except for 1. Oh.. and did I mention the population is also increasing? :2 cents:



Doh! They write they have legal partners and you can go their portals. And what do the torrentsites, rapishare etc write on their pages? Please tell me.. or do you need peer-reviews for that?



No, I read what you didn't their hole conclusion. And not out of context. I think you should read it, and then you will see they are talking about the overall welfare transfers - Socialism and piracy at it's finest...

But if the numbers are correct releasing that shit helped to make these record sales. Are you suggesting that if they didn't release this stuff that they would still have records sales? Sure there were some huge movies at the box office as there are every year, but if you look at the numbers you can see the trends.

This site has a great breakdown of it.

http://boxofficemojo.com/yearly/

In 2002 the movie industry made 9.2 billion dollars at the box office. They sold 1,575.7 million tickets, released 477 movies and had an average ticket price of $5.81

In 2008 the industry made 9.6 billion, sold 1,341.3 million tickets, released 605 movies and had an average ticket price of $7.18


So what does this tell us.

It means from 2002 to 2008 the industry had about a 5% increase in revenue. Yet they had about a 26% increase in number of movies released and about a 23% increase in ticket prices. All the while they had a 15% drop in ticket sales.

So number of movies released is up, ticket prices are up, yet number of tickets sold are down and revenue is not growing at the same rate of ticket prices and all is okay?

For pirates, 'inflation' and 'per capita' only exist if it fits the graph they want to show :1orglaugh :helpme

You need to do research.


You mean the report by the IFPI that represents the recording industry worldwide? Well of course they don't make it sound pretty... but the numbers don't lie.

"Single track downloads, up 24 per cent in 2008 to 1.4 billion units globally, continue to drive the online market, but digital albums are also growing healthily (up 36%)."



You forgot 09, looks like it already bet 08 and is on track to go back for the last 5 years. Not that our Country didn't get attacked, hasn't been at war, had and has crazy economic issues, we lost a region of our country including part of a major city, had several major floods, growing unemployment...

Industries falling all around us, 100's of banks, auto, small business, farms even.. just going belly up year after year after year...

And... sales hit a peak, then held steady, and now go back up...

You may want to rethink your one tracked mind.

Again... go find different data to read then. You can find the straight raw statistics and build your own trends if you want. Or let someone else do the work for you to get you the same results.. at the end of the day, you need to do your own research.

Which you aren't doing.



nSocial societies work.. Piracy is working... what's the issue?

I see trends that match economic times in that chart. That shows the number of tickets has increased, it's just off it's peak... and yes, the value of tickets sold has went down.

If more lower scale re-released movies have taken place, those aren't at premium rates, they are at much much much reduced rates, like the $1 theater. With MORE of those released, the average ticket price would drop greatly.

And "movie" entertainment, is on the decline overall... the "quality" rating is dropped to the floor with people, greatly. I'm shocked to see they did so well this year with so much 'hate buzz' going around about the cost of movies these days, and the quality, and the bitching of re-released movies.

At that... I would like to point out the price has increased every year, all the way back to 1980... the trend would say, piracy or not... it would still have done this. It was doing it before Internet Piracy.