bump :thumbsup

Fiddy cheap ass programmers.

The best programmer I've ever worked with and still do, costs $150 ph. Worth every penny too. :1orglaugh

$9 in India isn't bad and if he does the work well, then good for him.

thanks GFY! :thumbsup

When I used to freelance, I got a LOT of offers of work to fix stuff done improperly by outsourced labor. Just because a particular client thinks they are awesome, does not actually make it true.

I think a lot of people are mislead by outsourced companies or workers, but don't actually know better.

For example, say you require a specific task to be done. You are not a programmer/technical yourself, so you don't actually know what's involved in getting it done. An outsourcing firm quotes you two weeks and three hundred bucks. That sounds good to you, so you go forward with it.

Let's say they DO actually deliver a working product by their deadline and to your specs (many don't). You are happy and think they are an awesome company and use them for future work.

Now let's say someone more technical/experienced analyzed the same task and deduced it would take 4 hours, not two weeks. They would charge you five hundred dollars (say they charge $125/hour).

The first thing to figure out is, if you have this product almost two weeks earlier, what is that worth to you ? If it's worth more than two hundred bucks, using this example, then you lost money.

The other thing, is a lot of outsourced work doesn't follow things like standardization, modularity or scalability. They know clients will usually just take a look at the "front end" of the product and see if it works, or doesn't. Little do those clients know that when they grow to a certain level, the whole product will fall apart. Or, if they wish to add in new features or have other people work on the code, it'll cost them many lost hours in the new worker deciphering the mess of code they made. Especially in languages like PHP, there are thousands of ways to do something to "make it work". Very few coders I've come across actually code something while thinking ahead.

Anyhow, before I continue rambling on, the point I was trying to make is when hearing reviews by non-technical people (such as many company owners), just because they think a company is awesome doesn't make it so :)

As to outsourcing and particular countries/labor, you can find great programmers in every country of the world (except Costa Rica :1orglaugh ) and you can find bad programmers in every country of the world. So by no means is a North American or more expensive programmer better than a cheap Indian/Filipino - you should consider each on a case by case basis.

However, if someone is very cheap and high quality, you shouldn't expect they will be available for very long at all. If they are, something just doesn't add up :2 cents:

Great points Varius. I keep my programmer on salary and have had him for over 10 years. But if something were to happen to him...then I would definitely seek out a programmer whom I could TRUST. That's the main issue for me.

So no, I would never hire a company to do a programming task for me. Instead I would talk with several programmers, and judging from the expertise of the Indians in todays technology, I would probably end up with one of those guys. But I would have to fly over there and meet face to face and get to know him somewhat. It's very risky to me to let anybody on my servers. The people who work for me are like family and we've all worked together since the 1990's. So if anything ever happens to any of them, I'm gonna be worried to death about trusting someone new.

I doubt he has a PhD in "programming", probably computer science which isn't much more than just a branch of applied mathematics...

Indian workers are a huge risk. Congrats on getting lucky with this one.

I would love to have sex with you right now, woj.

From my experience, they're not getting the best programmers in the world, not by a long shot. However, they're getting cheap labor which can get the job done. My day job is software development (I started adult part time recently) and of the 3 decent sized projects that we outsourced parts to India and the Philippines, none were a success. And from a critical code reviewer, the returned product from them was absolute shit in terms of long term development. The code worked but they didn't use best practices, lots of code was redundant, little to no documentation, and the list goes on. It was something I would expect from an entry level developer, not someone with "10 years experience, MCSD, etc."

Then again, I'm sure most people's perspective here is "it cost me $9/hour and it works perfect!". Then, that leads them to conclude they are the best programmers in the world because they did it so cheap and it works flawlessly--for now. A good programmer can build a system that can be adapted (not hacked to work).

I am incredibly biased though and I was dead against outsourcing it in the beginning but management had their way. From your other post, you're dead on, it comes to trust. Find a developer you can trust and is cost effective, and that might as well be one of the best programmers in the world.

Adendreams. I sent you an icq. add me. I have an affiliate who needs a simple script created.

You know, it would have saved you some typing to just quote what I said :winkwink: :thumbsup

Good, reliable programmers are hard to find.
If this thread is correct, you will get a lot of work, my friend.



GOOD LUCK!

thanks rock-reed :thumbsup

anyone else have a reference for this guy?

adendreams do you have anything I can look at? php code maybe?

I've contracted out two projects to him to start with -- and we'll see how it goes before I decide whether to use him to redevelop my entire portfolio of sites. Unfortunately, I have not been able to reach him/no response for the past couple of days, so I may have gotten to him too late ... and perhaps he is now overwhelmed with work, which would not be good news for me.

I'm still hopeful that things will go well. From my earlier conversations with him online he is very pleasant and polite. Then again, I find most Indian's whom I have met online or in person to be very friendly. Of course, a friendly demeanour alone does not a functional web site make. I'll report back on my experience.

I have a small job, maybe 2 - 3 hours coding, hit me up if you're available [email protected]

Thanks for you reply Robert :)

bump :2 cents:

yeah live and learn

thanks GFY for the bug fixes but anyone need hit me up :thumbsup

We are now several weeks past my last post where I said that I would report back on my experience. Although very pleasant, it has nevertheless become necessary for me to end my business dealings with this designer and look for design services elsewhere.

I have waited for weeks with no response other than an email about personal problems being encountered that was preventing my work from being completed. The last email assured me that one of my sites would be complete 5 days ago, and I have not heard any further response, nor is the site completed.

Had I wired money (a deposit) via Western Union, Paypal or Epassporte to India, I would be out the money, plain and simple. In this case I wanted to test the designers ability by getting one very small project completed first, at which point I would pay and proceed to contract out larger projects.

I do still need to find a balance between contracting out to cheap foreign labour and the often grossly inflated prices charged by many North American based designers. I am not prepared to pay hundreds of dollars for what amounts to only a couple of hours work -- as I have done on one occasion in the past when the designer simply took one of my existing sites and made some cosmetic changes to it, and billed me $200 for an hour or two of work that I could have done myself if my idea of re-designing my site consisted only of changing some colours and a bit of the layout.

Again, this guy from Aden Design is very nice, but nice doesn't cut it when work needs to get done.

Very accurate post. Just to note you'll have to still fish for good programmers at the high-end of $125 / hour who may do little to no work during that time as well.

Imho
 

You can jerk off or pay someone to do it. More than 1 way of doing most things.
Just cause you can do it yourself does not mean you can berate them.

adendreams:

If you think you're a good programmer, and in the 95 percentile, I suggest you test you skills at the next ICFP Content (icfpcontest.org). You'll surely make more than 9$ an hour if you win - and if you do you'll get hired in second by anyone with a salary ranging from 60-100 USD.

I've competed in the last 2 contests, and it's a lot of fun, if you enjoy solving difficult problems.

thanks ohteddy

i will do the test...:thumbsup

BUmb for u doode!

Sorry guys I have bought all his hours for next year 24 * 365 * $9 and he is moving to Holland. Now he can sleep and still earn money!

does he do PHP as well?

hi Rick added u on icq....

:pimp:error

today's bump

Happy Christmas :xmas-smil30

Judging by the post count of the OP, the vendor mentioned, and some of the bumps here (example: 26), this looks like a scam in the making (not to mention that there has already been one negative report mentioned here, though this person's post count was low as well). Personally, I went through 3 teams over 4 or so months before finding the right people to bring into our company (including an award-winning team from the USA). And, though I'm not biased about the location of your workforce, I certainly agree that you need to find people that you can trust or you will face a world of business risks. :)

Only $9 an hour? Cool.

yeah, $9 an hour

thanks Chris :thumbsup

says the guy who held a logo design contest for his company and doesn't even have a web page.

I see this magic number $125/hr flying around this thread a lot...

damn, I'm seriously undercharging!

... $125/hr, ~$1k/d, ~300k/yr
things that make you go hmmmmmm.

In Thailand they say: "Mai abnaam - mai sa ahaat'' (No Indian - not clean) about people from India and that is not without a reason :2 cents:

Raise your fees bro! :winkwink::pimp

can you respond on you not being able to complete a simple job without giving excuses?

...says the guy who owns the company that:

(1) designed and developed ClubXXXCams (original script) and ClubXXXCash;
(2) transformed this script into a licensed version called VCMS (which has been licensed by a couple of major adult companies already);
(3) is developing an HD compression app similar to ON2 that will be offered as an inexpensive alternative to this product; and
(4) is developing iPhone and BlackBerry apps for the adult industry.

Ref the logo contest vs. website --- maybe, logically, it is better to have your logo / color palette in place prior to designing the site? And, maybe we haven't developed our site until now due to the fact that we have been busy designing, developing, and marketing our core business process (namely VCMS)? Why hold a logo contest? Hmmm... exposure, an outsider's perspective for something fresh (especially after our team worked for nearly 1 year without vacations), or maybe to give something back for the comments that we have received over the past several months that, ultimately, led us to the release of VCMS? Take your pick.

Do your homework before you comment. :) I call the scam based on (1) the fact that someone (supposedly) tested this developer's services and came up with a blank and (2) the fact that the OP is very new, is bumping someone that is even newer, and it looks like it could even be the case of fake sigs being used. At least when I bump, I blatantly do it with my own sig. Nothing to hide here, no ulterior motive. :1orglaugh

To the OP's developer: I am not trying to take your business. Your hourly fees and ours are in significantly separate ranges. However, I am calling this thread on bullshit. I will invest $90 into you for 10 hours of test, immediately ($45 in advance, $45 on completion of the test, ePassporte paid via our business account). We will provide you with a reasonable amount of work for the time allotted with an extensive guideline to complete the test. If you complete the work with an acceptable standard of code and within the time allowed, I'll bump the shit out this thread for the next 365 days. The proverbial 'put your money and skills where your mouth is...' This is your time to shine! :winkwink:

you are indeed probably undercharging... :2 cents:

My thoughts, exactly. :thumbsup I went through this with all of the teams that I mentioned in my earlier post (except the USA-based team), one of which was from India. Again, I'm not biased on workforce location but experience tells me that complex development will not get very far, especially if your provider is telecommuting.

Hi guys, i charge $9 per hr. yeah undercharge for regular works... :thumbsup

I don't know, but instead of bumping with no answers I think it would help you a lot to answer the questions made to you. Or to have samples of your work. I mean, something that helps people not to think what Magpan is saying. I mean, nobody here is stupid and everybody knows the OP, you and IVillage are the same person or at least working together, and most people here had really bad experiences with this kind of behaviors, so maybe you'd come clean on something instead of playing the dumb/mystery card

Just my 2 cents, do whatever you want, but I doubt you will have much success the way you're conducting yourself

Need to fix a javascript page, added u in icq

Why would any of you consider using him after this post that he never even responded to.

Hit me up on ICQ, I'll show you how to do it, (no I'm not a programmer and no I'm not going to refer you to anyone specific). :thumbsup

And to everyone else, the OP's website, http://www.adendreams.us/ is now parked at godaddy.