definition of theft

definition of fraud

until you can show how the making of a copy denies the owner of that original (not just damages them by costing them the income from selling additional copies-- see second quote) piracy will never be theft.

How is fraud any better than theft though? If this is some kind of argument to legitimise piracy I'd say thats a massive fail. Both are illegal, both can you arrested. Both can get you time in jail.

OK In this case I think I haven't really understood your question. and to be honest I wasn't really talking about DVD Sharing really and mostly refered to piracy on the net. I apologize if I have led the conversation stray but I think I have not really understood your arguments and I am sorry about it.

Fraud or theft my point is why no one feels guilty for leeching and pirating ?
what difference does it make what we call it ? you didn't pay for it you cant use it it is that simple?

Okay lets say it is fraud ! are you saying it is right ? and people shouldn't feel guilty about it?

bullshit

the US supreme court just recently ruled that timeshifting was legal in a cloud

that cloud included the segments of the internet

that company has hundreds of thousands of customers of that RPVR service

and the company that provide that service turns a profit on that offering


so you are wrong on all three counts,

what you just said is exactly the problem i am talking about, reclassifying it as theft to try and squash fair use on the new technology.

if you define it as fraud you don't have that problem
because you realize that every person who subscribes to that RPVR service has a right to those shows, (because they bought the cable , and have the right to timeshift it)

which totally removes the deception since they actually have the right.

<br>

Awesome tag!

Technically, the word 'piracy' could cover both situations.

Can I just ask what is your position on piracy? and how do you feel about random internet users getting your content for free depriving you from more income?

This is very true

never said it "legitimise piracy" it only legitimizes fair use that has been misclassifed as piracy.

but your talking about targeting things that can fall into the fair use space

like using a torrent like a vcr, i do pay for the shows (when i pay my cable bill) when i use the torrents to timeshift tv shows i am using just like my parents used a vcr.

it just a better vcr, because it has infinite hard drive space (swarm) never misses a show, never fails to tape.

no tv producer loses any income from this act because if i didn't use the torrents i would have PVRd the show anyway, and they would have gotten paid for those commercial spots anyway.


never said it was right, when you take something you didn't pay for it wrong,

my only problem is that when you try and reclassify piracy as theft you take away rights from people
rights established by the courts
rights to use the new technology in a legitimate (fair use way)

you hinder growth (like cheap solid state disk -- because of format shifting)

or like the previous response

Exactly. It does not really matter what you call it, but what damage is done.

no it can not

they are exact opposites, 1 removes the original the second does not

there is no way possible for it to cover both extremes.

So you say that the original Jolly Rogers were copying all their shit?

Ok you are missing my point I am not talking about people who have cable and download the same things that were On cable people Who I am talking about are those who pay one month subscription at milfhunter and then download the whole collection cancel their membership and put the whole site rip on the net. Now more than 100k of users who never paid for anything will come and download it and never pay a penny to milfhunter. is it fair? or does it fall under fair usage really?

the parallel for all former members of milfhunter to the cable company is quite clear
every former member who is using that swarm is quite simply timeshifting

the original seeders actions are also covered by fair use all be it a different fair use

when i seed my favorite episode of dr who (i want to keep the analogy consistent) i do do with the intent of getting it back for later viewing

i am using swarm as a backup

the only people who are commiting piracy are those who are taking the content without paying their actions are a deceptive claim that they have bought a right to view (see fraud)

go after the seeder and you are taking away a persons right to use the technology in a legitimate fair use way (backup)


That the problem with classifying it as theft, you take away those rights, classify it as fraud and you don't make that mistake and you only go after the people who are actually comitting the crime.

the original person had to have bought the content, how else would they have gotten it.

Can you pick the guy that's into time-shifting?

http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/x...ePackage-1.jpg


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Fact: I will steal from you and you will not do shit...

Fact: Steal from me and i will fucking kill you...

The issue has so many facets, so many graduations.

1. If I steal your content and SELL it to make money, now that really is dishonest.
2. Now if I borrow a friend's DVD and watch it, that used to be legal. But maybe there should be a small fee on this
3. there are all kinds of graduations in between: I give your content to my friend, I leave it sitting for everyone to download, but I don't make money, etc.

Facts are that we become a police state to protect author rights. (DCMA etc)
Facts are that reinstalling software is a pain because we need to remember where we left all these huge numbers to type in.


So a new model would be great. Like in Germany, where there is a fee for virgin CDs that pays for copyright. Of course, a fee on internet traffic will not do, so i wonder what can be done .........

But the entire model of enforcing copyright sucks. It really is disturbing.

Now how to produce porn if everyone can copy it freely? that sure is a problem.

Lots of people would still produce music eve if it were distributed freely.
Lots of books would have much more impact if they were freely distibutable.
Maybe we should have a spy program on our computer that pays very SMALL fees for all we watch.
Or at the end of each movie you decide how many micro-cents you thing you should pay for it.
Most stuff could be much cheaper and easier to use, if it were not carefully guarded by copyright and stuff

Guess some people better informed then me already thought about this and found some solution, but guess there is no good solution yet.

is this similar to shape shifting?

He could also produced it himself?
'Piracy' is a broad term. It can be copyright infringements (in that context), piracy in Somalia, piracy in the middle age... or whatever. Maybe you forgot what a real pirate is?

Actually, the original and real pirates were thieves. And proud of it.... With your logic, if you say that copyright infringement is not theft, or can't admit it with some proudness, then the ones committing infringements can't claim the title Pirate. So.. if it is not theft on piratebay, maybe they should also find another name?

Broke ass losers will forever argue about their "right" to download the property of others. Property they can't afford otherwise.


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Guys! I have to apologize, I think I have to mislead the discussions by using the wrong phrasing of my questions. My point wasn't to start a big fight about fair usage policy or syntactical meanings of theft. Let rephrase my self :
This was the real question : Why is it so hard to convince people that piracy is a criminal offence and is morally wrong! thats all really

This is very hilarious!!

No one should have rights over other peoples stuff

See above post .....


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The thing is when you share your book you no longer have the book until your friend gives it back. Then he no longer has access to it. If both of you want 24/7 access to that book both of you are going to have to purcahse a copy. Why you are too stupid to see the difference is anyone's guess.

The law says a reasonable amount. You don't have even a hundred friends most of the time.

100% correct. What's funny is how much of loser do you have to be to not be able to afford a 99 cent song? Last time I cheked even Burger King is paying at least $7.25 an hour.

That "time shifting" crap is just that crap. WHY would you need to download stuff to a torrent for later use? If the stuff is already on your computer and DUH there it is. You don't need torrent to access it. The ONLY purpose for a torrent is so you can give out free copies to thousands of your so called friends and they can give the shit they've illegally downloaded to you for free.

If you want to "timeshift" then there's a thing called a DVR, there's also DVD burners. If you want to go old school there's VCR. You can buy the DVD set from wally world. Or you can legally purcahse a digital copy from Itunes, Amazon, XBL or PSN. But of course $2 is to much for cheap ass bums that live in mommy's basement. Also many shows are available for legal streaming on sites like Hulu. Plenty of ways to LEGALLY "time shift" without the use for torrents

considering i have already told you that the guy on the top right is from a tv show which is timeshifted over 1.3 million times a week

you really are stupid for not fixing the picture in your insult.

Find me one reply where I said theres no difference between sharing tangibles and digital products or slap your mother for giving birth to a degenerate like you

what exactly about inferior technology do you not understand moron

dvr have a fixed size hard drive torrents do not
dvr fail if the power goes out torrents just recheck and continue along
dvr can only timeshift a limited number of shows that air at the same time torrents don't care
and so on

if i have paid my cable bill i have already paid for that content, so your get stuff for free bullshit it totally and utterly wrong

this is about forcing me to use an inferior technology so that the $2 itunes seems like a good deal instead.



hulu is inferior it not available in canada, and you must be connect to the internet to watch it (see above)

as for buying it from itunes, it not the cost it the fact i have already paid for that content, and i have a right to timeshift it for free.

i don't like paying twice for the same right.

now if you don't care great send me a check for all your hosting bills

if you don't want to pay twice for something you already paid for why the fuck would you think it is unreasonable for me to have the exact same feeling.

Guys no need to fight, We are all in the same boat :winkwink::1orglaugh

you really need to learn a little about history before you speak, the term pirate had many meanings in the past. The original pirates (those first charged with the crimes on the sea) were actually just committing the act of salvage. An act that was legal, it was only the second iteration those that tried to sink the ships and kill the entire crew so they could claim salvage rights that were "thieves".

the sanctioned form of pirating (privateers) came after that.

if you understood the history of pirates, then you can see how the name the pirate bay is an appropriate term to discribe torrents as a fair use distribution (see salvage).

lol ..... I'm stupid? Why don't you change the sig you are using? You know the one with a contest running June 1st thru July 31st! Or is the contest for NEXT year. :1orglaugh


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yeah and? My gas tank only holds 15 gallons so if I bring some gas containers I can "timeshift" gas from someone's car then.

Also when you "time shift" it's not supposed to be FOREVER. If you watched a "time shifted" episode and you don't have enough room DELETE IT.

If you scratch your DVD guess what you're shit out of luck. I guess that means you can steal another one form wal-mart.

kind of the point Einstein. Not sure where it says you are allowed to "timeshift" the entirety of the history of television.

When you pay your cable bill you are paying to have access to that show AT THAT TIME. Not to have PERMANENT copy of it. When you lease a car do you own it? No.

Sorry you make so little $2 is too much for you to afford.


WOW I am contnually amazed at people in this industry that are so against the pirating of THIER content and bitch about tubes, torrents and such and yet think that downloading a torrent of their favorite TV show is ok because it's "timeshifting". I'm not sure if all these people are hypocrites or just retarded.

Just so we are clear if you pay a monthly cable bill that entitles your to a free copy of every TV show because it's unfair for you to pay twice. So logically if someone is paying for a monthly subscription to a porn site he should be allowed to have a perrmanent copy of all the content on that site beause he's already paid for it.

Now you've done it. Gideon will now argue this thread to 7 pages minimum.

No one posts that kind of common sense on this topic without the eyepatch-wearing parrot-on-the-shoulder-having gideon pie-rat hitting you with wall after wall of rationalization as to why it's okay to take the work of others and profit from it with no compensation to the copyright holder.

No one.

lol... anyway, glad I could teach you history. So now you understand that it can cover both extremes, as the example above? In context it could be infringements, but also theft.

I'm in the middle of a heated discussion about this on another forum -- this argument is regarding movies, music and software.

It seems like the attitude of the debater is directly related to their age. Those with no mortgage payments, family and other responsibilities seem to think they are entitled to everything for free, and will rationalize some of the dumbest points to make themselves feel better about theft. So, I think its mostly younger folks who know that its wrong, but they will never admit it, and almost convince themselves that its OK.

/shake head

distribution of someone elses full works for monetary gain is not fair use. Not now - not ever.

/leave

This goes both ways. Only the ones profiting from old billing models are the ones vocal against this.

Just so its clear, I'm not pro theft however its disturbing the common sense some of our fellow gfyers are showing.

:1orglaugh :thumbsup

only if your a world class moron to stupid to understand the words
which anyone with a 4th grade reading and comprehension level understands is exactly what you are doing when you take gas from someone elses car.



really want to show me a vcr that stopped playing an old tape after a certain time limit.
you are talking about taking away rights that the old technology gave you.
How stupid do you have to be to think that is legitimate.




your actually trying to use the arguement that was over ruled in the betamax case to justify your position

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

if it was only allowed to be watched at that time, then moving it to another time would have been equally illegal.

The content producers in that case claimed that they licienced the content for "viewing on that specific day at that specific time" when they tried to argue that moving it to another day was a copyright infrignement.

The supreme court ruled against them.







the only hypocrite here is you, since you refuse to pay me for your hosting again, but demand that i pay twice for my content (using an arguement that the court have already ruled invalid :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh)

you believe it unfair for me to ask you to pay twice for the same service but you have no problem demanding that i do.


they do as so long as the content in question was available during the term of the membership

if you grant them full access to everything you have ever produced the copyright act (thru the fair use section) grants them the right to back it up and time shifting etc.

You need to keep the content fresh so they have a justification to keep comming back.

no you idiot theives pretended to be pirates to hide their illegal actitity

look history

the first pirates were just committing salvage of delelict vessels

it wasn't until the first pirate argued that "God" took the goods away from the owner (with the storm that sunk the ship) and "God" granted him the ownership by providing the winds that allowed him to find the sunken ship.

That there was a legal right to be a "pirate"

when that happened thieves (who sunk the ship and killed all the witnesses) were just pretending to be pirates so that they could likewise claim that "God" granted them ownership.

Obviously because it was easier to just sink a ship and then "find" the booty rather then legitimately scour the seas for legitimately sunken ships, those "thieves" usurped the term.

But that does not change the fact that the term pirate was NOT EQUAL to thieves.

If the pirate bay wants to use the term in the context of defending fair use in the same way as the original pirates used it to defend the fair dealing of "Salvage" then that is their right

only an idiot would argue that justifies calling them thieves simply because in the past thieves usurped the term from the real pirates.

So....

If I pay for a month of hosting but don't use it can I timeshift my use to later?

If I pay for a month of cell phone access but don't use it can I timeshift the usage to a later time?

If I pay for a concert ticket but don't use it can I timeshift my listening/viewing rights to a later show?

If I buy a movie theatre ticket but don't go can I timeshift my viewing rights to a later theatre showing?

If I rent a car for a month but don't pick it up do I get to have a free 'timeshifted' car for a month of my choosing next year?

... etc etc etc

NO

posting content in a publically accessable place is not timeshifting - its theft/fraud for profit.

publically posting complete unaltered works owned by someone else is not 'salvage / timeshifting / fair use' - not now - not ever. It is in no way condoned by any fair use provisions. All legal provisions allow for PRIVATE use/backup/storage/timeshifting. In no way does it allow for PUBLIC access/sharing. Clouds/torrents/fileshare technologies are not private.

and thats pretty much where giddyboy fails - PUBLIC vs. PRIVATE.

and he/she/it will fail on that point forever

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oh and btw the high crime of piracy was created to convict people for the attempted hijacking of a ship.

It was a criminal sanction of the fraud of pretending you were doing a legitimate salvage

it was necessary because when "pirates" got caught it was because the ship had guards with enough skill to stop the murder and the theft.