I'm on 2k of test right now, fuck, I am JACKED UP

lol no youre not...

no offense but your info is all over the place, bold is a PH, havoc is a methyl...both of those are probably the least suppressive in both categories. Superdrol is highly suppressive as is pheraplex and tren. Phera is a very wet compound and much more androgenic than both superdrol and tren, superdrol/tren will get you more leaner dry gains. Either way your buddy didnt take any support supplements while being on or have a proper PCT, so theres a reason behind why his health was put at risk. Do it right the first time or dont do it at all.

right on, i do take a few of the extraneous supplements, i like the creatine and also do get a jolt from jack3d preworkout. i might try a month without them and see what happens.

I just bench pressed 800 lbs and then did 50 sets of 90lb curls x 20 reps

as long as you were curlin in the squat rack

HAVOC is very suppressive because it is also an anti-e. Your body needs some estrogen to stay balanced, so when you finish your cycle AND take a PCT to further suppress estrogen you take the risk of your body creating excess estrogen when you finish your PCT, (rebound gyno). Just from what I read on prohormoneforum.com.

As for support supps, he took milk thistle, hawthorn berry and some sort of OTC PCT with an AI. I don't care what support supps you take, you're still going to get side effects when you gain the same mass as you would injecting real steroids. It's the price you pay to put on that kind of mass that quickly. I'd rather inject real pure pharmaceutical test than put that shit in my body, but that's just my take on it.

My 1 GNC supplement is their vitapaks :) I use the energy one...

It gives me energy to do those things, running, lifting weights etc!

Havoc has minimal side effects and suppression of the body?s natural androgen production as well as minimal raises in estrogen, if any at all. its one of the least suppressive, do the research on your own. and whoever told you that you can gain as much on a havoc cycle as u can on a cycle of test is out of their mind. u can gain maybe 5-7lbs of LBM IF that on this stuff, its weak. Superdrol on the otherhand, 15 pounds and probably keep 10. and i agree with you 100% on pinning rather than taking OTC stuff, u cant go wrong with something that has 50+ years of research backing it.

in order of strength weakest to strongest
bold
havoc/epistane
halodrol-50
tren xtreme
mdrol/superdrol
m1t

DLX, what's yer pre and post workout nutrition/supplementation?

I'm 250 lbs and I'm pretty sexy shirtless, that's all that matters!

well im going to workout in about an hour, i just ate 1 serving of pasta, 1 serving brown rice, 1 tbs olive oil, 2 tbs natty pb, greek yogurt, and 2 chicken breasts, about an hr before that i had 2 bananas and a 400 calorie shake. Post workout is pretty much the same, ill have a 400 cal shake, followed by about a 5-800 calorie meal.

I had 10 egg whites, 2 strips of well done bacon, a litre of skim milk for breakfast.

Soon I will goto the gym for an hour an a half, 30 mins of cardio after I DESTROY 1 body part today.

dang, that's a lot of protein at one time, does all that get processed? i've always tried to keep it to 30-45 grams a meal. not saying that i'm right, just saying.

no supplements pre/post?

sometimes ill take jacked, creatine mono has been giving me pretty bad stomach cramping so ive been staying away from that for now, and protein, those are the only supps i currently am on. im basically eating as miuch and as cleanly as possibly to get to 180-185 then cutting to 175 @ 8%

right on, i just enjoyed a 3 egg white omelette, 3 oz parmesan and a BIG salad with homemade jalepeno dressing.

thx for the info, DLXphil.

Weider Whey Proteins
Natrol Energizer Multivitamins
L-Arginine
Biotest Hot Rox
Biotest Alpha Male
Biotest Super Food
L-Carnitine
Scitec Nutrition Hot Blood

However it's all no good if you don't excercise so I recommend swimming and/or cycling.

I'm fucking flexing in my mirror right after I post this.

I'm taking my preworkout dump, feels good man.

thread got weird.

From what I've read in 4 weeks time you can gain nearly as much as pinning yourself with test for 4 weeks. Obviously most test cycles go for 10-12 weeks so the possibility to gain more is there.

Well, that's the thing, you can go wrong. Anytime you mess with your hormonal levels and put on mass a lot quicker than you would naturally. No matter how many support supps you take, while on cycle you're stressing every organ in your body. Anyways, we will just have to agree to disagree, we are coming from two different perspectives here. I'm all natural and that's the way I'm going to stay, nothing against you or other users.

nethorse, what's your pre and post workout nutrition/supplementation?

Well I'm on a cut right now, so I'm eating about half as many carbs as I normally do..

Usually preworkout I'll eat plain oats and raisins with a protein shake. If I'm tired I'll drink a cup of black coffee no sugar just before I hit the weights.

Post workout, one cup brown rice or sweet potatoes, skinless chicken breast, or white meat turkey, steamed broccoli and another protein shake.

When I was taking creatine I would take my creatine shake with BCAAs and maltodextrin, (I would count the maltodextrin towards my daily carb consumption) immediately after working out.

That was back when I believed taking a quick absorbing carb right after lifting was crucial. From the research I've been doing it's not really necessary and may just attribute to fat gain since maltodextrin is a simple carb.

Here is an interesting read...

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a...utrition_myths

interesting, i run 6 miles a day @ 8-10mph on the treadmill, not counting outdoor runs here and there too, and also lift. this actually was a helpful thread as i realized im not eating enough to gain any serious muscle... no meat, just rice, cereal, fish, and smoothies. running alone gave me big legs but i realize you gotta eat eat eat (i guess) for upper body mass?

Damn, that's a lot of running..

Yes you need to eat more calories than you consume to build new muscle.

There are is no concrete daily calorie intake your body needs, however using this formula will give you can give you an idea..

BMR = 66 + (13.7 X weight in kilos) + (5 X height in cm) - (6.8 X age in years)

1 inch = 2.54 cm.
1 kilogram = 2.2 lbs.

Example..
25 years old
6 feet tall
220 pounds

BMR is 66 + (1370) + (914) - (170) = 2180 calories

Then the next step is to determine your total daily calorie needs, now multiply your BMR by the appropriate activity factor, as follows:

If you are Sedentary - little or no exercise
Calorie-Calculation = BMR X 1.2
- If you are Lightly Active (light exercise/sports 1-3 days/week)
Calorie-Calculation = BMR X 1.375
- If you are Moderately Active (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/week)
Calorie-Calculation = BMR X 1.55
- If you are Very Active = BMR X 1.725 (hard exercise/sports 6-7 days/week)
Calorie-Calculation = BMR X 1.725
- If you are Extra Active (very hard daily exercise/sports & physical job or 2X day training)
Calorie-Calculation = BMR X 1.9


The number you get is the total number of calories you need in order to MAINTAIN your current weight.

If you want to gain body weight, you must consume more calories than you burn. Everyone's body is different though, if you're a hard gainer and don't have a huge appetite you may have to actually cut back your cardio.

I've taken two PHs in four years of lifting, I'm not a user of aas just educated in just about every aspect of iti have over 5k posts on the prohoromone forum, I'm pretty educated and speak openly with my Dr about it so take it for what its worth.

BCAA'S, L-Carnetine.
The rest you need a prescription for.
duke

That's alot of protein. too much

What I meant is you're not opposed to taking pro-steroids/AAS, where as I wouldn't mess with it. Like I said, for me it's about being healthy. I decided against taking compounds that might ultimately catch up to me later in life, (whether it has long term effects on my mind, heart, brain, endocrine system, whatever I don't feel it's worth the risk). That's why I said we have different perspectives on the subject, (as a user vs non-user).

Take it for it's worth!!! :) Personally, I think a lot of people jump to taking steroids when they shouldn't be touching them. In my opinion it should be used by guys who have already reached their genetic potential and want to get freaky big. Just my 2cents to any noobies reading this thread wanting to get into weight lifting and bodybuilding.

pure semen extract

Man up and get some test... and a ton of Whey.

you do realize that you wont start to see any benefits from test until maybe mid week 3 and week 4 right? even if its a short ester, all your immediate first gains are going to be water and glycogen. i dont know where you get your information, but you still are very mis-informed, regardless of if your "natural" or not...

not everyone wants to get freaky big, maybe freaky strong, or vascular, or spare fat while on a cut. then you have the newbs and its these people who give supplement companies the wrong way, the people who jump the gun, being ill-informed, not having proper support (your buddy's "support supps" were crap BTW) over the counter PTC while taking 1 very harsh methyl and 1 moderately harsh methyl, then taking an AI when one of them is already an anti-e. Your "buddy" is dumb, and your both uniformed and will continue to think these things wreak havoc on your body, but when used in a proper way it will have minimal side effects. Im not saying a guy pumped full of anadrol, dbol, test, deca, and tren is healthy by any means. But for someone whos never going to want to be at their genetic limit, recover, have faster gains, harder and fuller muscles, or going for a full body recomposition, then i see no problem with using an aid. I guess thats how i justify it, if im going to punish my body day in and day out i want it working as efficiently as possible, if that makes sense. But i do see your understanding, but if you do your research theres plenty of studies to backup pretty much anything with a chemical structure.

thx, a lot of info in that article too.

DLXphil,

I hear what you are saying, or the part that i can relate to and that's do the research.

in that regard, i did what i felt was due diligence prior to taking the tren, i read info at one of the ph message boards and also read all the info at american cellular labs website and never came across any info informing me not to take an NO at the same time.

this is the world of the multi-billion dollar supplement bidness, contra-indications might be hard to come by at one time or another.

:)

im not talking about doing some research online for 8 hours and thinking thats all, i sat, read studies, studied the actual chemical structures of the compounds, read logs on probably about 5 forums, sources out nolva/clomid, proper support supplement/supp complex, NAC, u name it. If anyone goes into taking an NO while on a PH is a newb and did not research enough (no offense to you), contradictions can be cleared up by asking questions. As soon as u told me your symptom you got an answer, simple as that on a Bodybuilding forum. And it is the people who are ill-informed who mess themselves up because their blood pressure went through the roof and so did their cholesterol and liver enzymes because they didnt monitor them. I doubt u have a BP cuff that you used every morning/night to balance dosing dependent on your BP. This stuff reacts different in everyones body. If u dont read about others experiences you will never truly know how to treat the supplement itself.

What I meant is in 4 weeks time, as in even if it was week 4-8. If you gain 25lbs through a 12 week cycle, how is that anymore than gaining 8lbs in a 4 week cycle. :winkwink:


I respect the research you've done, but your concept of being 'informed' consists of reading a forum full of users, not people coming at you with information from both sides of the fence. In my opinion, no prohormone or steroid is safe, PERIOD. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

BTW, the support supps he took was a prepacked thing like cycle assist which is supposedly okay from what I've heard.. Either way, IMO, he could have taken a million support supps, he's still putting the same crap in his system. It's like drinking a case of beer and smoking 2 packs of cigs a night for 4 weeks straight and saying, it's cool I eat healthy.

That's your preference, and that's totally cool. I'm just putting the other side to it for beginners to consider. I'm not "freaky" big, and I still have a long road ahead of me, but I've put on a lot of mass naturally without the need to compromise my health. I started off as a skinny guy with probably below average genetics. It's just my opinion that diet, basic supps and a lot of dedication is all you need. If you want to get freaky big or compete then there is always the other road, but that's my take on it.

There are plenty of studies of steroid users who are on lifetime TRT in their late 30s and 40s, and they did everything right. Depression and other physiological issues from messing with your hormones. Heart disease/clogged arteries from sudden increased bad cholesterol, lowered good cholesterol and increased blood pressure. Kidney problems, liver problems, etc..You might not know about the damage done now, or even a couple years after the fact.

It's something to take into consideration, but maybe I take my long term health a little more seriously than others..

it's hard to have a real back & forth convo with ya phil when you put such high expectations on things. suggesting everyone should study chemical structures, do more than 8 hours of research on something that is available otc and such simply isn't going to happen.

i mean, congrats on your doing so but that's just not the reality for the majority of us.

so you justify your lack of research simply because the guy at GNC sells it? thats like suing mcdonalds for getting fat. its partially supplement companies themselves that are part of the problem, they suggest crazy doses and crazy otc pct. im a go big or go home type person, if im going to put something foreign in my body i want to do it as safely as possible. Hell, look at all the health related issues from real pharma products, why wouldnt i research what USERS have experienced. I read medical journals, scientific journals etc. not only about the supps ive done but on all supplements in general. And im not expecting anyone to go to that extreme, but reading online about the PH you took for a mere 15 minutes could have yielded the information that you didnt have, which leads me to believe that you didnt do it properly. Im not saying its safe 100% to take a phs, i know about the added stressors on my organs, but ive done enough research to know how to go on and come off as safely as possible. where as other people dont, and u cant only blame them like i said, the supp companies are a part of the problem, its a vicious cycle

no problem man.