the misconception is many people move because of the lower rate, but as Damian mentioned , it is the opportunity cost that will get you. Every extra sale you make , you keep 85 percent of it, now imagine if you were to decline extra 10 to 20 sales a month, you have lost that customer forever, no recurring. So it is just the way you want to look at it, do you want to make more money or do you want to save cost?

Harmik

Where are the facts my friend.

My Gran always said "buy cheap, buy twice".

Thing is, you can CHOOSE! So if you don't want to pay the 15%, don't. Happy paying 5%? Cool! Pay 5%!

Arguing about it is a bit silly though. If you are happy, brilliant!

Who am I missing?


* Digiblaze
* OPSbilling
* WSB
* Pro-Billing
* GKard
* Web800
* PowerCharge
* 365 billing (US)
* Globill
* WebSiteBilling
* iBill (.com)
* DMR
* Paymonde
* PSWBilling
* Lancelot
* Globill
* PayByNet
* Merchant Solutions
* ACPay

When something sounds too good to be true... well you know the rest.

I don't recall any company that didn't charge the Visa registration fees that survived.

And VirtualAdultAgent nailed it. I've b been with Epoch since 1998 and I know what it costs and what it takes to make all this work. We worked on a comparison study just two weeks ago comparing costs, and anyone who could offer the same services could not possibly do it on their own for less than 10%, no way... and actually our conclusion was even higher.

So Zombaio will run with my money any day now?

:1orglaugh

Umm... let's hope not!

I was just answering Sly's question.

I know the public facts about Zombaio but nothing more, really. But at one point we (for a very short time) tried offering to cover the Visa Registration Fees up front and then slowly take that fee from future proceeds. Know what happened? About 95% of those who took us up on the generous offer never processed enough sales to cover the registration fee. Think about the type of clients you attract with that model. Just sayin'.

Obviously, we discontinued that offer. For good.


.

Zombaio has been around since 2003, though not processing adult, still in a high risk area.

From their site:

Our History

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The company started in Basingstoke, United Kingdom in 2003 as an acquirer for iGaming Networks. A Swedish division was established in 2005. During the fall 2006 the adoption of an unexpected approval of the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act, criminalizing the collection of payments (Cross-border) for non US based online gambling networks.

With a reliable and scalable transaction platform we decided to establish in the adult entertainment industry, which we did and opened an US division in 2007 (Zombaio). The brand and product Zombaio.com was released 3rd of October 2007 with a large advertising campaign.

Originally, our two founders come from RBS (Royal Bank of Scotland) where they were responsible for structuring the pay platform that today is one of the world's 5 largest platforms. Naturally, we have full redundancy in the systems, whose sites are located in Stockholm (Sweden), Frankfurt (Germany) and Mountain View (CA, USA).

Both the company and the platform are Visa and MasterCard PCI DSS certified by TrustWave. Certificate of Compliance

Our aim is to continue to provide services that are firmly established in the market based on the latest technology. Zombaio takes an offencive role in the market offering daily payouts, anti fraud insurance and marketable processing prices.

https://www.zombaio.com/corp_overview.asp

That's pretty damn close to that 7-8 year window you mention, imho. :2 cents:

You are wide of the mark on this one Damian.

The question shouldn't be, what corners the cheap processors are cutting, but how the expensive ones are still getting away with charging 1998 rates WITHOUT actually providing a noticeably better service than their budget priced rivals.

Of course people will tell you that the reason for this is that so many processors come along and shaft people and steal their money and new companies can't be trusted etc, it is this fear alone that allows ccbill and epoch to continue as they do providing what is let's face it.... a grossly overpaid processing service in today's market where costs need to be trimmed to remain competitive/alive.

ccbill and epoch can afford to sit there and lord over the market. Nobody can knock them for not dropping their rates, but I question why their service is not better. Yes they pay on time, but so do Zombaio and really that is the least we should expect from a processor.

I have used all three of those processors and I can honestly tell you that even ignoring the processing rate, and ranking purely on ability to process a good card, and detect and decline a bad card, then for me Zombaio are a clear winner.

I hope that more people do the maths and add them as an option, (for customers to choose rather than cascading). Not only will you get more of your money in your pocket from the sale, but you will get most of it quicker, and don't forget the holdback.....you won't have to wait 6 months for that extra little 5% to be paid back to you.

The continued growth and reputation of a viable option is the only thing that will make the big boys even think about cutting their rates. Without the likes of Zombaio the big boys' rates would probably be going up !

Technically,zombaio will be better even if it go to shitter one day since is so large difference between 4% and 15%

There are never other facts than opinions of different people. And all we can do is to make our own opinion upon them.

On the contrary... I dare you to come up with ANY other company (especially in this space) that hasn't had a rate increase or whose prices haven't risen in the past 14 years.


.

Epoch has always been good to me. I lost a stack of checks one year and they were very cool about replacing them.

i respect companies like CCBill or Epoch a lot for offering a stable service over so many years in this business, but I don't believe you when you say your costs are actually higher than 10% per transaction. sorry.

i am willing to pay yours or CCBills 15% because it gets me the benefit of a known brand, existing affiliates etc., but I also know you are making way more than 2-3% points per transaction.

This is an age-old question: how to maximize profits and which processers to use. Go NATS? Epoch? Verotel? Etc etc. Every person's/company's experiences will be differant as every individual or business has differant goals, expenses, bottom lines, overheads, etc. So for one person a 15% charge is just fine if their main concern is reliability, trust, honesty, ease of payment, etc etc. Whlle another may want every single drop squeezed out of a sale/site whatever.

What we do is use CCBill first, Epoch 2nd, and we're exploring using Scott Baio as a third cascade.

Dare me? Why are you talking like a 12 year old?

Does sound like you need a better accountant though Rand. I would be happy to go through your numbers if you would like?

.

Okay that is pretty funny.... :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

bahahaha


Cachi bill ROCKS!!!

Just making a point man, that's all.

In fact, service has vastly increased and rates have gone down slightly in the past ten years. So not only have rates not increased in over a decade, the services and features have gotten better. I don't know of any other business that can say that.

Most clients pay less than the discussed 15% which is really only for new clients who have no history.


.

the more competition the better.

:2 cents:

But technology and the part it plays in the process has increased significantly in the last 10 years, and many things that you needed to pay specialist people to do 10 years ago, can now be handled by automated procedures and comparatively lesser skilled and thus cheaper workers.

Technology has also led to a reduction (for sure) in the rates that your banks charge you, and the speed at which they pay you and you will also have a higher volume of transactions than 10 years ago which will also bring down your cost per transaction.

Can you honestly dispute any of these statements?

If you can then you really need an overhaul :2 cents:

Yes and no.

Not if you get caught up with a processor that let's your ratios get out of control.
Then you could lose your ability to process anywhere. Meaning, if a bank shuts shuts
you down because your CB or credit ratios are too high, you're not going to be
able to move somewhere else afterward (at least not without some difficulty.. if at all).

(And no, I'm not talking about any specific company here. Don't try to read into it.)


.

i'm processing for 10% for my shop since 4 years without hassle and without one single missed payment. And I doubt that they lose money on that. :2 cents:

Epoch is a good company..

They had some issues a few years ago but rebounded back very nicely...

If I ran paysites and wanted to go the 3rd party route I would choose

ccbill or epoch....

Could you please point out when more competition isn't better? To say otherwise is rewriting the entire history of economics.

You could use the example of an inefficient or dubious company for any good produced or service provided in the world and it would make sense that you shouldn't do business with them. The market weeds those sorts out sooner or later and it's ultimately a good thing in the long run.

When the competition is legitimate it is INVARIABLY a good thing for the customers and the market. It spurs innovation, lower prices, higher service and more competition.

Monopolies and duopolies are anathema to a free market. Having all one's eggs in one, or even two or three, baskets is risky. Even if they do things right and by the book it doesn't guarantee against catastrophe.

To wit: TOO BIG TO FAIL.

Lagcam - Of course technology has improved, and yes made things better on many fronts. But the rest of your statement could definitely be argued. Bank rates for example, rarely (if ever) go down. And the rules are different than they were in the 90's too. Add to that there is a lot more that goes into what an IPSP does than most people ever consider.

In the end, each company should do what's best for them. Most couldn't do what we offer for much difference in cost and I know we can do it better due to experience, the number of payment types we accept, the languages we offer to customers, etc..

I'm not here to beat down on anyone at all. But I'm not going to apologize for being a successful and profitable company either. Everyone should do what's best for them, and do no harm. Right?



.

I already made my point.

And your diatribe is right. No argument.

They both co-exist.

I didn't see it mentioned here but one thing I noticed when making a choice for a secondary processor was the fees. Have you looked at Zambaio fees? They charge for chargebacks, they charge for checks, they charge for pretty much everything, and the most disturbing thing I found was they had clauses that can be interpreted the wrong way to basically shut you down at their discretion. Plus there's alot of mystery around how they're managing to get around the Visa registration fees and process in the states. It might be cause they're the new kid on the block who knows. I don't want to talk bad about them so I'll leave it at who knows.

So if all of this is worth the 10% difference then I'd say go for it, but be aware of what you're getting into and be prepared that they could fold or change drastically at any point.

Where Epoch is concerned. I've never been a fan of Epoch. Something there I just don't trust and although I have nothing but my gut to back it up, I just find them very lacking, and as far as support goes I found them rude as hell. I will not accept any phone jockey telling me "well too bad that's how we do it" when I asked a polite question of "is it possible to have.. cause we have it set up this way." There's a certain level of politeness you need to show clients and in my opinion that's not it.
Zambaio I called three times and three times I was told someone would get back to me. That was in December. Still waiting....
So in my opinion both companies have support issues.
CCBill/Epoch charge a higher rate but they don't nickle and dime as much. At least CCBill doesn't. I dropped Epoch as soon as I got that reply from a phone jockey.
So in the end the 10% more you spend today might save you more in the long run. Plus you're judging them on the out the gate price. Have you spoken to a rep and tried to negotiate a better rate.
I know with you can negotiate rates with both CCBill and Epoch. I have friends who just started with CCBill and they're not paying 15%. Last year when I was considering Epoch they offered me around 13% to be a secondary. So there is room to wiggle in their rates. You just need to be aggressive and confident in your product and they'll play ball. In this economy no processor wants to turn a customer over to the competitor. At least in my opinion.
One final note is have you considered Segpay? After dealing with Epoch and Zambio and not feeling right about either of them, Segpay finally won me over in the long run, and I'm actually happy they did. They're support and rep went the extra mile setting me up, and walked me through all the steps I needed to get things rolling. So if Segpay is an option in your books I'd suggest them over Zambaio or Epoch. I also believe their rates will be lower than 15%.

Well I didn't know that! You should expect an email from me to discuss a reduced rate :thumbsup

you are comparing apples to oranges. Some of my clients came from them and the biggest complain was not only the through-put but their pay page.

What he said. I was offered I believe 13.5% to come over (by someone who is not my rep now) but it ended up being 15% when I did.

About rates....
 

Our rates are on our website.

You need to be making more than $170 per day to get into the tier system.

And yeah.. that would be most of our clients.





.

epoch for the win!

I been in this game a long fucking time and once upon a time my only concern was %, then after losing shitloads of money I decided to stop being such a fucking idiot in the % department and look beyond that.

I dont know zombaio so my comments are general and related to my structure, it may be different for you.

I rely heavily on affiliates, I do what they want, they send me the sales after all or at least a big portion of it. I also rely on rebills, and obviously my affiliates rely on that too.

So with those things mentioned, I ask myself what billers do affiliates trust in these days, id say ccbill epoch and verotel. Now im sure many have great experiences with others but I can just report here what I found and I speak to a ton of people all the time about this stuff.

If you are in business where you charge a one time fee for something and you get paid every 2 days then yeah maybe you shouldnt care about billers. (unless you do some extremem amount daily). But for most of us who been thru hell already, we like to focus on what is the most trusted.

Will zombaio be there one day? Who knows, but right now its ccbill epoch verotel

i have invested about 350usd in b-movies

you had to remind me how much money I have lost in the last 10 years...

You have to remember. Adult always is associated with risk. Therefore they charge more money. 15% is a straight ripoff i must agree. But paying more for porn then mainstream does make a little sense.

I think I'm going to give Zombaio a try, I'm using Epoch as a secondary now, but cant make the 20k monthly for a % drop.

:2 cents:

Keep in mind if you replace Epoch with Zombaio as a secondary, (I assume you're talking about cascade billing) then they won't process at 4.9%..

Anyways, continue on, interesting debate..

One good reason is Epoch has been around for over 10 years and has always been ontime with payments with excellent support. So to me that is worth every penny. Cheaper isn't always better.

Mark

Hi all... good thread.

What is very interesting is how lower rates automatically is less reliable.

We monitor every single signup in something we call SIGCON which is an internal behavior monitoring program which gives us information exactly where users abort their purchase (if aborted) and tons of statistics for the aborted session such as 3d enabled, debit credit, country, browser type, language etc. All aborted sessions is followed up and as it is now the ratio is 4:30 (ABORTED/DECLINED : APPROVED of LAST 30 trnx). We are working really hard to have as high throughput as possible.

We also have, possible the markets most reliable scrubbing system, used by MANY MANY banks and financial institutions (http://www.samport.com/?q=samport-zeus) worldwide. The system helps us and our merchants to keep fraud at a minimum at the same time as accepting many good orders.

We are 21 employees

6 developers
3 accounting
5 management incl cto and ceo
4 support
1 compliance and regulations
2 backoffice billing

All client funds (even to and from US banks) are held by our Swedish corporation. The Swedish corporation is under direct supervision of the Swedish Financial Supervisory Authority (FI). FI supervises and monitors companies operating in financial markets.

As we said 3 years ago, we are here to stay; we have been doing this for almost 8 years now, and are a rapidly growing brand in the adult space which we are very glad for.

We have not only good rates; we have a very good processing platform honored by many clients (https://www.zombaio.com/Testimonials.asp).

Try us out, there are no startup fees and you will get your account details instantly after signing up (https://secure.zombaio.com/signup/) (yes we still eat that fee for US merchants but not much longer for new clients)

COMPETITION = DEVELOPMENT!

you pay more to know your rebills will be with you for a long, long time.
how many cc processors will come and go , burn webmasters again and again for people to get this?

I remember you promised in another thread to tell us the story of how you guys came up with the name Zombaio... So, whats the story :) ?

It seems people forget (or never knew) iBill was the big fish. They were not the small, new to the game processor. They were the huge indestructible reliable processor that everyone insisted would never go anywhere.

Anything can happen to anyone. Spread your risk.

NETbilling :-) - We actually lowered our published rates.

Looking forward to seeing you in Phoenix if you are going.

yup.. just cause you pay 15% doesnt mean ccbill cant go down.. all it takes is bad management and poof..

:2 cents: