sorry was not attacking you and your business.

i just can't find any reason why would i order my staff commit days or hours solely based on "promise" to get paid and then if anything goes sour baring financial responsibility for the time of my employees.
and you know what they say about thing going wrong, if you allow it - it will go wrong.

I've done 50/50, 100% upfront, 100% on completion.

Usually (and I'm generalizing here) people who have no problem paying a retainer are 10 times easier to deal with in a long run.

With people that I've a long working relationship with I just do the work and invoice twice a month and everyone's happy.

But there's no way I'm lifting a finger on promises of someone who says they'll pay me sometime in the future if I do this 30-hour project for them. There's not enough hours in the day to deal with that shit.

You are obviously used to working with flaky designers. Probably your budget that there's something wrong with - you probably go shopping for "better" offers all the time instead of sticking with the guys that helped you out in the past. Your bad. Not mine.
´
You asked a question, I gave you my reply from my side of the table.

Exactly my sentiments. I don't even bother to reply to those prospective clients that say "I never pay anything upfront". Much easier to ignore them - lots of time and agony saved :)

No worries hoss. I feel the same.

I was not attacking you either, nor anyone else in this thread. I have stated several times now that people can opt to run their business how they see fit. That goes for both sides.

If a client wants something done, and will pay upon completion. You either accept the bid or you do not. Trying to rationalize it to someone who opts to run their business that way will get you no-where.

Just as if you tell a client it's a 50/50 deal for you and your business, and they say no. Then spend endless thread posts, or hours, trying to convince you that you are wrong and should let them pay how they want to.

No business will get done as either will not budge.

That said, people can run their business however they see fit and typically have a lot of good reasons and experience for doing it the way they are. However, the designer asking for a 50/50 or 100% down is not any type of "standard" that is accepted by the industry on the whole. Not in adult, mainstream or real world.

That was really the point.

Dude your bitching is not going to change the way the industry operates.. it's always usually 50/50.. it's been like that.. it's gonna be like that...

this post is dumb.

designers who have good testimonials / references and are gettin paid to do work are not gonna give a crap about people wanting them to wait till the end to get paid. Why should they when they're already gettin paid to begin with?..

Your logic only attracts desperate people..

I don't even do 50/50 anymore. I found an AMAZING guy who does everything when it's completed. He earns his bucks and gets paid every time and now works exclusive.

With all said above, your cleaning lady, your handy man, your gardener you are ready to finally hire couple designers inhouse and stop looking for a bargain like a cheap ass. Time to grow, no? Cus it sounds like trolling.

Ignorance at it's finest reinforced over and over. :1orglaugh :thumbsup

You do not know me, my budgets, or who I do and do not work with. Yet to make these remarks and ASSumption says a lot about you.

:2 cents:

Why does this have to be about deigners? This same ethic could apply to programmers, coders, SEO, any consultant, anything.

This 50/50 thing seems acceptable. Personally I go with what my builder did me for - 3rd on "signature", 3rd midway, and 3rd on completion. Half up front is (imo) too much for the client if they don't know the person doing the work.
It's been so long I did some major work for someone I don't know I don't even have any rules now!! But, yeh, 1/3:1/3:1/3 would be it for anything >€2k and someone I didn't know/trust.

Oh, and there was a comment way back in the thread on timely invoices.... yeah, that's important and luckily the one time I had 3 invoices for 3 diff clients that were sitting there waiting to get invoiced (past stuff ranging from 3-5 months) when i sent them out (with apology for delay), they all got paid within 48 hours. Now I'm sure, each of those 3 guys were like "fucking hell, where did this come from", but they all paid up without grief. BF was one of those 3 ;)

Heh. I don't care to get into any discussion with you. Not much point. You obviously weren't looking for any opinions on the subject, rather you were looking for somewhere to vent your apparent frustration over someone requiring from an unknown client, a retainer before commencing any work for them.

Doesn't matter much what you think of me, because since you're so adamant in the way you run YOUR business, that you feel that you should have any say on how I run MINE, I seriously doubt we'll ever be doing any business together, anyway :)

Agreed with on all points. :thumbsup

:winkwink:

I'd pay Crazy Sy @ http://www.ibuildfreesites.com/

He gives good deals with payment 100% upfront.

He came highly recommended by other people I trust.

The point of discussion was about the 'standard' as if everyone does it the same way (100%, 50%, 30%, benchmarks, etc.), and they do not. It varies by contract, size of project, as well as repeat business, new client, and so on.

Every time a thread like this pops, a bunch of designers, get their panties in a twist and want to defend their little turf or business practices.

The point was, there is no 'absolute standard'.

That would be correct.

Usually I consult for large financial corporations (citadel, aon, northern trust, etc..) and the standard in that realm is to bill for previous hours every month on NET30 terms.

With some stranger off of a message board though, i'm not writing a line of code until there's money sitting in my bank account. Usually most get scared and run off when i quote them $125/hour anyhow :)

:thumbsup

Yes, all designers should move to billing per hour instead of per project.

Ah-hahahahahahaha.

I would love to see the 85 hours I get billed for a WP skin.

dat fris foo would be a rich man.
:pimp

I would imagine most respectable designers would want payment up front... that way they get less headaches, less chasing around for payment, etc... and the buyer likely ends up paying slightly less too since the risk of non-payment for the designer is eliminated... win-win for everyone involved.. :2 cents:

95% of the time, upon completion

sometimes i pick a client that I dont know and throw up a flag and insist on 20-50% up front. Very rare though.

A good portion of my clientele is return though, so we already have a balanced business relationship.

To be honest though... its the names people know here that have ripped me off. Not the unknown nobodies...

Why switch? I operate an either/or system - some guys prefer a complete price on for project, in which case, it is all done to their specifications, and any deviations are billed on "
time+half" billing after thatm, or the lot on hourly rate (and each expertise field is different hourly rate)

I would *only* trust anyone external if they could provide a real-time billing/logging feature so I know when they are working (and on what).

*cough* like someone we know *cough*

In short, my work ethic is my clients have to see what I'm doing and when. And it has to be live viewable. I have a logging system that tells them the hours I'm working on their stuff, and my dev server gives them live access in all its glory to the code I'm working on (if it's not on their servers). I do prefer to work on my server, since then I hold the code until final payment, but like I said, all my clients are known to me and I trust them all to do work and bill later.

A *standard* would be some industry escrow chief that takes a 1% cut on bills and acts as an arbitrator. Now there's a point - I sure as shit wouldn't want that job, not even for 2.5%!!!

The majority of my billed work has been hourly for over a year now...

Its better for both me and my clients. I get what i deserve and they get what they pay for nothing more, nothing less.

No project is the same.

There is NO reason to ever pay a designer upfront.

Why do you pay someone a deposit upfront? Usually because there is a material cost to he job. When I had my patio laid the guy wanted 20% upfront so he could buy brick. Sure.

But a designer? HELL NO. They are sitting there in front of their Mac, all they have to do is get to clicking. I would pay a percentage upon delivery of a comp, possibly.

There is no upside to me paying upfront, none.

It all depends who you are working with... go to a respectable designer that has a few weeks waiting list, and propose some 50/50 deals and he will likely tell you to get lost... 50/50 deals often turn into chasing around to get that last 50% paid... respectable designer who has more work than he can handle, has better things to do than chase people around for payment...

on the other hand, designers who are looking to get more business often have more flexible payment terms, some may even do work with no $$ down... :2 cents:

I feel so attacked...

Amen to that shit!! Congrats Brother - wish I could afford to do the same. :)

I actually think that the general direction of this thread explains a lot of flakey designers out there... webmasters looking for the best deal + freelancers living check to check can be a pretty bad combo.

Most designers I start with, I do 50/50%, after that, I only pay after the project is done. From time to time if I need a quick banner done or something for like 50 bucks, I pay upfront to save me from hassle.

True dat.

As for people looking for the 'best deal'... whether you pay 0/30/50/100% upfront or at the end, the price for the design work would be the same.

So there is really no 'deal' to payment portion, other than keeping the designer motivated to complete their work instead of playing XBOX all day.

I'm not sure you get it. It's not a matter of how MUCH the client is going to pay. It's a matter of IF he is going to pay. I'm not saying YOU don't pay. But, trust me, there are LOTS of "clients" out there who order and have NO intention of paying. And, yeah, I realize there are designers out there who have no intention of delivering, as well.
So, what it all comes down to is, that there is a risk both ways. Hence, the 50/50.

Trust me champ, I get it.

Over a decade in this business and I have tried/worked with a lot of different designers. So paying more is not always the best, nor is a lancer site paying at the end always the best. There is no standard, or 'best'. I have even had some highly recommended who fell into the 'classics' (i.e. excuses).

Experience has shown paying, any new designer, a big chunk of money upfront is a mistake.

As I said earlier in the thread, I am sure there are a few clients who do not pay, or dangle a carrot for completion of work, or some other shit. But the flip side of designers blowing deadlines by a mile, or not completing work to specifications, etc. far outweighs those couple of clients who chase around.

Many more designers flake then clients not pay.

True dat.

Can't say I disagree entirely... It's a shame that those designers choose to ruin their reputations and businesses like that... but, all things considered, there are far more clients out there than designers so the pool of non-paying clients is probably bigger hehe

never here again got too much un usable crap in the past anyone that wants $$$$ upfront can gfy there is a few designers i use regularly that dont require it that i can always use.

True fucking dat.
:thumbsup

Mainphrase being "i use regularly that dont require it that i can always use." with keywords "i use regularly"

There's a difference in taking in a totally new unknown client vs taking on a job for a client you have an ongoing relationship with or that you have had good experiences with in the past.

I work with 3 people and invoice them monthly after all work is completed, if something is not signed off it rolls over to next months bill. It's all about trust.

Exactly. Trust.

Would you extend the same credit to any random new client the first few times he orders from you? On $100 and $5.000 orders alike?

Actually I picked up a new client over Christmas off GFY have billed them monthly in arrears since.

I will take this risk as I can understand why people are wary of sending $$ in advance.
I do check that they've not previously scammed anyone though.

An order over say $2k I would agree a point in the design process to release a % of funds. say an agreed mock up.

To many bullshitters in this business, designers that are always whoring for work and it turns out they're behind by months on prepaid designs.

You're a designer yourself, you know that we have to price low to be competitive, and can work stupid hours to get everything done, it's easy to spend the prepaid stuff and find yourself taking more work to get the $$ back.. I find people work harder when they're paid after the act rather than before.

Well said my friend on ALL accounts. Nice to see some honest input on this issue.

:thumbsup

Yup, very true. Don't get me wrong. Practically all our work is paid after or upon delivery. Some is and has been prepaid way in advance too but that doesn't mean the work doesn't get done. I'd consider that sort of like the retainer you pay an attorney.
However, there are those cases where someone comes along and has weird specs, is difficult to talk to and is very iffy about the ideas you present to him, yet still wants to move ahead. And then there is the type that insists that he's very picky and has a very limited budget. And many other similar types, where too many alarm bells go off that trigger that little advance prepayment retainer button. Time wasted is money lost.

I no longer do design for anyone but myself... though, if I still did I would definitely charge upfront, and I would charge a lot. :pimp