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TheDoc 03-23-2010 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt 26z (Post 16972140)
Many opposed it because of the right wing lies.

Let's take a look at some examples :)

.....the overheated claims and counterclaims about healthcare reform have produced widespread confusion about what the new legislation will actually do. Here are a few of the most overblown concerns:

The government will take over one sixth of the economy. That would be alarming if it were true. But government involvement in healthcare will increase gradually over time and remain modest, especially since there's no "public option" in the current plan that would set up a government-run insurer. If you have doubts, consider the attitude of professional investors, who would stand to lose a lot if the government took over healthcare. They don't exactly seem worried. Shares of health insurers like Aetna, UnitedHealth, Wellpoint, and Cigna--subject to the strongest new rules under reform--have outperformed the stock market over the past year. The pharmaceutical and hospital industries also are considered winners because there will be millions of new customers who suddenly have insurance that can pay for treatment. That led the entire stock market higher the day after reform passed. In fact, it's hard to identify any part of the private-sector healthcare industry that stands to lose under reform.

The federal debt will explode. It might, but not because of healthcare reform. The Congressional Budget Office--which is probably the most reliable, nonpartisan number-crunching outfit in Washington--says the reforms will reduce government deficits by $143 billion through 2019, thanks to new taxes and fees and cost savings in government healthcare programs like Medicare. But opponents of the bill and powerful lobbying groups like the U.S. Chamber of Commerce say otherwise, and they seem to have had a stronger influence on public opinion than CBO's methodical analysis. A recent poll by the Kaiser Family Foundation, for example, found that 55 percent of Americans mistakenly believe the CBO has said the healthcare legislation will add to the deficit. Only 15 percent know that CBO has said the opposite.

Doctors will revolt. Doctors don't like the current system, in which insurance companies call the shots. But instead of sweeping reform and more government involvement, they prefer gradual reform that puts more control in the hands of ... doctors. In one recent survey, nearly one third of physicians said they'd consider leaving medicine if reform passes, which it now has. Doctors worry that the new rules will cut into their incomes--which may happen, eventually. But it's implausible that thousand of doctors who have dedicated years to a complex profession will simply quit. What will they do? Become accountants? Open a Subway franchise? Besides, with millions of new patients seeking care, the demand for doctors will actually rise, not decline. And if cost controls discourage the docs who are in it to get rich, maybe that will help bring costs down for everybody else. Meanwhile, the American Medical Association and dozens of other physicians' lobbying groups will continue to look out for doctors' interests in Washington.

Businesses will suffer. The new rules will impose fees on businesses with more than 50 employees if their workers receive government subsidies to buy insurance in lieu of employer-provided coverage. Business groups complain that this could stunt economic growth and slow hiring. But businesses are more resourceful than that. It's true that many companies will have to absorb additional costs, which they do every year anyway when health insurance premiums go up. But well-run companies excel at solving problems. That's what makes them successful. Smart entrepreneurs salivate at the chance to outcompete bigger firms that can't manage challenges like this. And companies already pass on the rising costs of healthcare to their employees; there's no reason to expect that will change if they can't manage costs some other way. There's also an outside chance that the new insurance exchanges will make life easier for small businesses, as intended, by giving their workers a way to buy coverage at rates comparable to what big companies are able to negotiate.

Socalized medicine is on the way. In the Kaiser poll, 41 percent of respondents said they believe the new law would require people who already get insurance through their employer to change their coverage. But most people who already have health coverage won't have to change anything, unless they want to. The new rules will have the most direct impact on people who don't have coverage, or who don't get it through an employer. Those who fear the advent of "socialized medicine" mainly seem to worry that the current set of reforms is just Phase 1, to be followed by bigger changes that will replace doctors with bureaucrats and render individual patients even more powerless than they are now. This is supposed to happen despite the likelihood that the Democrats who supported reform will lose seats in the November elections, while Republicans who opposed reform will gain seats. It seems much more likely that after surviving the battles of the last year, the current for-profit healthcare industry will be with us for the foreseeable future.


Source: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/5-Over...&asset=&ccode=

baddog 03-23-2010 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc (Post 16971130)
His quote says, you have 5 days to look at the bill BEFORE I sign it... he didn't say, once the bill reaches his desk, you then have 5 days - that would be a stupid way to run a business.

As a matter of fact, that is exactly what he said. Go to 1:07 in the video.

nation-x 03-23-2010 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 16972151)
So [b]NOW polls are valid? LOL

Since when did I say all polls were invalid. Some polls like gallup are generally fair... you have look at the questions asked to see whether it's a valid poll or not. For example: "Do you support a government takeover of healthcare?" would generally gain an overwhelmingly negative response.

Matt 26z 03-23-2010 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwd (Post 16971074)
"...our success in bringing health care costs under control ultimately depends on whether Washington can summon the political will to take on and reform a second, even more powerful industry: the food industry.

The US food industry needs does indeed need further regulation. There are so many chemicals in our food stuply that have been banned around the world. In the US it is nearly impossible to eat three healthy meals a day.

The Demon 03-23-2010 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x (Post 16972167)
Since when did I say all polls were invalid. Some polls like gallup are generally fair... you have look at the questions asked to see whether it's a valid poll or not. For example: "Do you support a government takeover of healthcare?" would generally gain an overwhelmingly negative response.

I'm not sure if it was you or the other moronic liberals on this forum I get you guys mixed up. When presented with a poll that goes against them, they scream "it's not real" or "scare tactic."

Also
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ..._tracking_poll

And finally, polls do not in any way represent the majority of Americans, which is why everytime I post a poll, I add "if polls are to be believed." Not to mention, the poll is kinda contradictory considering the day before, Americans were still overwhelmingly against the bill which must mean they wanted something to pass rather than nothing.

nation-x 03-23-2010 05:09 PM

Today's Republican press conference about the signing of the bill.
http://images2.dailykos.com/images/u...igning_Day.jpg

The Demon 03-23-2010 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt 26z (Post 16972176)
The US food industry needs does indeed need further regulation. There are so many chemicals in our food stuply that have been banned around the world. In the US it is nearly impossible to eat three healthy meals a day.

Yes yes everything needs regulation blah blah blah.

smutnut 03-23-2010 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc (Post 16972160)
Let's take a look at some examples :)

.....the overheated claims and counterclaims about healthcare reform have produced widespread confusion about what the new legislation will actually do. Here are a few of the most overblown concerns:

The government will take over one sixth of the economy. That would be alarming if it were true. But government involvement in healthcare will increase gradually over time and remain modest, especially since there's no "public option" in the current plan that would set up a government-run insurer. If you have doubts, consider the attitude of professional investors, who would stand to lose a lot if the government took over healthcare. They don't exactly seem worried. Shares of health insurers like Aetna, UnitedHealth, Wellpoint, and Cigna--subject to the strongest new rules under reform--have outperformed the stock market over the past year. The pharmaceutical and hospital industries also are considered winners because there will be millions of new customers who suddenly have insurance that can pay for treatment. That led the entire stock market higher the day after reform passed. In fact, it's hard to identify any part of the private-sector healthcare industry that stands to lose under reform.

The federal debt will explode. It might, but not because of healthcare reform. The Congressional Budget Office--which is probably the most reliable, nonpartisan number-crunching outfit in Washington--says the reforms will reduce government deficits by $143 billion through 2019, thanks to new taxes and fees and cost savings in government healthcare programs like Medicare. But opponents of the bill and powerful lobbying groups like the U.S. Chamber of Commerce say otherwise, and they seem to have had a stronger influence on public opinion than CBO's methodical analysis. A recent poll by the Kaiser Family Foundation, for example, found that 55 percent of Americans mistakenly believe the CBO has said the healthcare legislation will add to the deficit. Only 15 percent know that CBO has said the opposite.

Doctors will revolt. Doctors don't like the current system, in which insurance companies call the shots. But instead of sweeping reform and more government involvement, they prefer gradual reform that puts more control in the hands of ... doctors. In one recent survey, nearly one third of physicians said they'd consider leaving medicine if reform passes, which it now has. Doctors worry that the new rules will cut into their incomes--which may happen, eventually. But it's implausible that thousand of doctors who have dedicated years to a complex profession will simply quit. What will they do? Become accountants? Open a Subway franchise? Besides, with millions of new patients seeking care, the demand for doctors will actually rise, not decline. And if cost controls discourage the docs who are in it to get rich, maybe that will help bring costs down for everybody else. Meanwhile, the American Medical Association and dozens of other physicians' lobbying groups will continue to look out for doctors' interests in Washington.

Businesses will suffer. The new rules will impose fees on businesses with more than 50 employees if their workers receive government subsidies to buy insurance in lieu of employer-provided coverage. Business groups complain that this could stunt economic growth and slow hiring. But businesses are more resourceful than that. It's true that many companies will have to absorb additional costs, which they do every year anyway when health insurance premiums go up. But well-run companies excel at solving problems. That's what makes them successful. Smart entrepreneurs salivate at the chance to outcompete bigger firms that can't manage challenges like this. And companies already pass on the rising costs of healthcare to their employees; there's no reason to expect that will change if they can't manage costs some other way. There's also an outside chance that the new insurance exchanges will make life easier for small businesses, as intended, by giving their workers a way to buy coverage at rates comparable to what big companies are able to negotiate.

Socalized medicine is on the way. In the Kaiser poll, 41 percent of respondents said they believe the new law would require people who already get insurance through their employer to change their coverage. But most people who already have health coverage won't have to change anything, unless they want to. The new rules will have the most direct impact on people who don't have coverage, or who don't get it through an employer. Those who fear the advent of "socialized medicine" mainly seem to worry that the current set of reforms is just Phase 1, to be followed by bigger changes that will replace doctors with bureaucrats and render individual patients even more powerless than they are now. This is supposed to happen despite the likelihood that the Democrats who supported reform will lose seats in the November elections, while Republicans who opposed reform will gain seats. It seems much more likely that after surviving the battles of the last year, the current for-profit healthcare industry will be with us for the foreseeable future.


Source: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/5-Over...&asset=&ccode=

Shouldn't this shit be more relevant to someone like Donald Trump or someone who is even less of a figure head and even more of a player for real?

I mean I'm glad you're looking out for me and everything, but how does this hurt my bottom line and how will you help me fix it?

The Demon 03-23-2010 05:13 PM

btw Nation take another look at the polls. The majority of Independents and Republicans don't support it.

nation-x 03-23-2010 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 16972197)
btw Nation take another look at the polls. The majority of Independents and Republicans don't support it.

As far as Independants go... I would call 46 to 45 an even split... neither one a majority. The part you are missing is that a good percentage of those who oppose the bill wanted a public option.

Matt 26z 03-23-2010 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc (Post 16972160)
Let's take a look at some examples :)

Those examples fly right over the heads of the Republican's primary base. We're talking about rural hick types who can't understand any of that because they are literally some of the dumbest people in the developed world.

You and I both know that the average Republican voter that went against this bill did so because they bought into claims of taxpayer funded abortions, death panels for the elderly and long wait times for serious health problems. Not to mention the Republicans that simply go against anything Democrat no matter what it is.

smutnut 03-23-2010 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 16972197)
btw Nation take another look at the polls. The majority of Independents and Republicans don't support it.

They will be bought off like everyone else because everyone knows this is inevitable. Obama is actually getting too much credit and I'm more than happy to give it to him. This is an inevitable bill for the masses that dick heads making under 10 million dollars a year should support or pay for the most expensive plans out of their own pockets just to prove how much more beneficial those plans are.

TheDoc 03-23-2010 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 16972165)
As a matter of fact, that is exactly what he said. Go to 1:07 in the video.

The quote Obama said was "when a bill ends up on my desk as president, you the public will have 5 days to look online to find out what's in it before I sign it."

When do you think he got the bill? It was up for public viewing last week, I'm pretty sure it ended up on his desk last week.

Either way, it's 5 days to review it before he signs it, not 5 days once he goes to sign it.

The Demon 03-23-2010 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt 26z (Post 16972227)
Those examples fly right over the heads of the Republican's primary base. We're talking about rural hick types who can't understand any of that because they are literally some of the dumbest people in the developed world.

You and I both know that the average Republican voter that went against this bill did so because they bought into claims of taxpayer funded abortions, death panels for the elderly and long wait times for serious health problems. Not to mention the Republicans that simply go against anything Democrat no matter what it is.

Ah yes, the Republicans are misinformed, but the Democrats are not. Do me a favor. Stop showing your continued stupidity and bias.

weekly 03-23-2010 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt 26z (Post 16972140)
Many opposed it because of the right wing lies.

Decades from now people are going to look back on this hysteria and laugh.

exactly....there is only one "poll" that counts. Its called an election. And the Republicans lost. Primarily because of their extremist policies. Most people dislike extremism. That's why it is extreme. And the three or four rabid, propaganda spewing rednecks on this board do not a majority make. I hate stating the obvious.

The Demon 03-23-2010 05:31 PM

Oh Nation..

http://www.gallup.com/poll/124253/Sa...nsibility.aspx

weekly 03-23-2010 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc (Post 16972234)
The quote Obama said was "when a bill ends up on my desk as president, you the public will have 5 days to look online to find out what's in it before I sign it."

When do you think he got the bill? It was up for public viewing last week, I'm pretty sure it ended up on his desk last week.

Either way, it's 5 days to review it before he signs it, not 5 days once he goes to sign it.

You are grasping at straws....

The Demon 03-23-2010 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weekly (Post 16972242)
exactly....there is only one "poll" that counts. Its called an election. And the Republicans lost. Primarily because of their extremist policies. Most people dislike extremism. That's why it is extreme. And the three or four rabid, propaganda spewing rednecks on this board do not a majority make. I hate stating the obvious.

You also hate stating facts and understanding what "extreme" means, dumbass.

The Demon 03-23-2010 05:32 PM

Quote:

originally posted by thedoc view post
the quote obama said was "when a bill ends up on my desk as president, you the public will have 5 days to look online to find out what's in it before i sign it."

when do you think he got the bill? It was up for public viewing last week, i'm pretty sure it ended up on his desk last week.

Either way, it's 5 days to review it before he signs it, not 5 days once he goes to sign it.
m-o-r-o-n

nation-x 03-23-2010 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 16972238)
Ah yes, the Republicans are misinformed, but the Democrats are not. Do me a favor. Stop showing your continued stupidity and bias.

26% of Republicans think Obama is the anti-christ... that means 1 out 4 Republicans are nut jobs right from start.

nation-x 03-23-2010 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weekly (Post 16972242)
exactly....there is only one "poll" that counts. Its called an election. And the Republicans lost.

:2 cents:

weekly 03-23-2010 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x (Post 16972252)
26% of Republicans think Obama is the anti-christ... that means 1 out 4 Republicans are nut jobs right from start.

Is America taking stupid pills this week? Did Mickeydees put something in their fatburger? Did they all collectively drink the Kool aid? I think its a failure of the education system. When you refer to the sixth grade as your senior year, they fast track you into the Republican party.

smutnut 03-23-2010 05:36 PM

Fuck independants! Are you high? Get with the program! :1orglaugh

smutnut 03-23-2010 05:41 PM

The problem with the republican party is they think of Ronald Regan as Jesus Christ. Ronnie was the worst of the best Republicans. Eisenhower was a great President who warned of the Military Industrial Complex, Teddy Roosevelt took on the Robber Barons and even Nixon, yes Tricky Dick, globalized our environment by visiting RED China and Russia.

Dems will go through this sooner or later. They invented the KKK after all but right now they are the best hope for civilized capitalism

The Demon 03-23-2010 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weekly (Post 16972260)
Is America taking stupid pills this week? Did Mickeydees put something in their fatburger? Did they all collectively drink the Kool aid? I think its a failure of the education system. When you refer to the sixth grade as your senior year, they fast track you into the Republican party.

This coming from the moron who believes there's a "silent majority", that the people passed legislation, and the Iraq War bankrupted our country. Stupid Democrats.

baddog 03-23-2010 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x (Post 16972252)
26% of Republicans think Obama is the anti-christ... that means 1 out 4 Republicans are nut jobs right from start.

Where did you come up with that?

The Demon 03-23-2010 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smutnut (Post 16972272)
The problem with the republican party is they think of Ronald Regan as Jesus Christ. Ronnie was the worst of the best Republicans. Eisenhower was a great President who warned of the Military Industrial Complex, Teddy Roosevelt took on the Robber Barons and even Nixon, yes Tricky Dick, globalized our environment by visiting RED China and Russia.

Dems will go through this sooner or later. They invented the KKK after all but right now they are the best hope for civilized capitalism

Hahah never heard so much bullshit in my life. Do you know history, or make up your own?

The Demon 03-23-2010 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 16972277)
Where did you come up with that?

Another "poll" rofl.

smutnut 03-23-2010 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 16972282)
Hahah never heard so much bullshit in my life. Do you know history, or make up your own?

Which part are you disputing? I know your entire life is about being correct but point out the error please so I'm not walking around deluded

TheDoc 03-23-2010 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weekly (Post 16972246)
You are grasping at straws....

You have had many days to review it, before he signed it.. that's a grasp of reality that many here seem to ignore.

Kinda crazy to think the bill reached his desk yesterday/today when the public has been able to view for about a week, and the media has broken points of it down, and continues to do so.

The Demon 03-23-2010 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smutnut (Post 16972285)
Which part are you disputing? I know your entire life is about being correct but point out the error please so I'm not walking around deluded

Quote:

The problem with the republican party is they think of Ronald Regan as Jesus Christ. Ronnie was the worst of the best Republicans. Eisenhower was a great President who warned of the Military Industrial Complex, Teddy Roosevelt took on the Robber Barons and even Nixon, yes Tricky Dick, globalized our environment by visiting RED China and Russia.

Dems will go through this sooner or later. They invented the KKK after all but right now they are the best hope for civilized capitalism
The whole thing. It's a bunch of bullshit opinions based on absolutely nothing.

weekly 03-23-2010 05:51 PM

These rednecks are goin down slow. It is entertaining to watch them spiral down the plug hole.

smutnut 03-23-2010 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 16972292)
The whole thing. It's a bunch of bullshit opinions based on absolutely nothing.

For example. LOL, Damn, I thought I was a troll, but you're trying to redefine it! LOL, one crummy example or bad fact will do me?

The Demon 03-23-2010 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weekly (Post 16972300)
These rednecks are goin down slow. It is entertaining to watch them spiral down the plug hole.

Yea, the Republicans are going down. More people disapprove of Obama than approve. Reid's approval rating is like 8% while Pelosi is at 11%. Hurray for reality!

smutnut 03-23-2010 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 16972320)
Yea, the Republicans are going down. More people disapprove of Obama than approve. Reid's approval rating is like 8% while Pelosi is at 11%. Hurray for reality!

Fuck percentages, give me my examples you fucking TROLL!

The Demon 03-23-2010 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smutnut (Post 16972315)
For example. LOL, Damn, I thought I was a troll, but you're trying to redefine it! LOL, one crummy example or bad fact will do me?

No no don't be upset, you ARE a troll. You possess no facts, make up your own shit as you go along, and call it reality. You're basically "weekly".

The Demon 03-23-2010 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smutnut (Post 16972324)
Fuck percentages, give me my examples you fucking TROLL!

No need, you haven't proven a single statement you've made.:)

Edit: Well you're an idiot but I rather like humiliating idiots.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_1...37-503544.html

weekly 03-23-2010 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smutnut (Post 16972315)
For example. LOL, Damn, I thought I was a troll, but you're trying to redefine it! LOL, one crummy example or bad fact will do me?

Won't happen.....guys like him never let the facts get in the way of good story. Kinda like Fox News....
"The World is Flat"...we report, you decide.

The Demon 03-23-2010 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weekly (Post 16972332)
Won't happen.....guys like him never let the facts get in the way of good story. Kinda like Fox News....
"The World is Flat"...we report, you decide.

Quote:

This coming from the moron who believes there's a "silent majority", that the people passed legislation, and the Iraq War bankrupted our country. Stupid Democrats.

Owned:thumbsup:thumbsup

smutnut 03-23-2010 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Demon (Post 16972328)
No need, you haven't proven a single statement you've made.:)

Edit: Well you're an idiot but I rather like humiliating idiots.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_1...37-503544.html

Well, you almost had me the other day, but now I love my BLACK, PINKO LEFT WING LIBERAL, CLOSET QUEER (fill in more stuff later) PRESIDENT!


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