Originally Posted by CyberAge-Dave (Post 17155952)

Shouldn't you be on vacation somewhere. :1orglaugh
Not sure how we ended up back in this thread, sorry.

I totally agree with what you are saying here, for a change 100%,. :1orglaugh

Originally Posted by Cory W (Post 17155902)

I am not much of a board person anymore, Hustler and my own projects keep me busy as is; but here are a few observations that come to mind for me, based on your post, Shap. Hopefully it doesn't lend itself to digression of your original thoughts and points.


1) Everything you said, without question, contributes to a variety of failures and breakdowns.


2) A complete and utter lack of realistic expectations and patience.

Shap, I don?t want to undermine the amount of business proposals you have heard, I am sure you have heard more than your fair share. But I can?t tell you the amount of business opportunities that I have been pitched that inherently reveal how short-sighted people in this industry are is without scope. The dynamic of the plan is usually something that was conceived in a car ride home from a Chinese dive restaurant between two former webmasters and a Chinese chicken chef. It?s usually pitched from the fervent randomness that it was conceived with, which is sort of like listening to a monkey chirp on two eight balls of blow. There is nothing written down at the time of the call, but rest assured, details are coming. And when they come, it?s all different. Why? Because when something is written, it?s like a Heidi Montag without any makeup on, all the shit that is messed up comes shining through. Now the new idea is basically a copy of everyone else?s products that they copied from someone that copied?..Why? Because if you can think up an idea at a Chinese shithole restaurant in Van Nuys, it was likely not an idea that hasn?t been thought of before.

Now comes the timeline and Action Items, because without the mirage of these two functions, the plan is still short of a total waste. The timeline is typically around 30 days, and involved in this timeline is a 15 day risk of total and complete change of focus. If the product doesn?t actually work within two weeks, you can pretty much rest assured that it will fall into a half-designed-half-programmed-kinda-functioning-business-cards-were-made-too-fucking-early graveyard.

You might be thinking, but what about the marketing plan? Well, that was started already with the ?something huge is coming? post on GFY and the icq logs with Eric covering how much a banner and skin would cost if this ChineseShitholeCash actually got off the ground.

The point in this is that companies and individuals are short-sighted and grasping at straws so often, they fail to realize that if they would have taken some time and attempted to create a true working product, with a unique marketing plan, and some focus, they?d fair way better.

Let me tell you a true story, when I started my ?mainstream? portfolio (that?s in quotes for a reason to be addressed momentarily), I told my partners that if we did this, no one asked about profits for one solid year. The only questions I ever wanted to hear needed to revolve around how we could make our sites more surfer friendly, how we could more succinctly and efficiently divulge information to our readers, and how, in a general sense, we could engage our communities and keep them happy. Over that year, we grew slowly, but every couple of months, we?d look at where we were and we?d semi-celebrate the achievement. There was no profits involved, only monthly losses that got greater with each passing month.

We also had a marketing plan. Much of this plan included picking up the phone and calling people to pitch why we should be considered in their lineups for news. Some of it included creative traffic portals. Some of it included flying to places to get content that served us only for viral marketing.

Now, what type of responses did I get at shows?

?Does that shit actually make money??
?Why don?t you have a Sex Search ad on there??
?You should at least be feeding them installs.?
?That?s a fun hobby.?

Of course, how much does that change when business takes a dive? That?s the fantastic part, it doesn?t, which safely gives even more validity to what Shap said. Whenever anyone hears un-inflated profit margins alongside a natural business timeline, they are out. When I tell people a year, they are already refocused on the next idea they can come up with while on the way to an Springroll lunch special.

Let?s try this for a second. I am 34 years old. If I could have a long-term product yielding me nice living by age 40, would I take it? The answer is yes. With all the energy and time that so many people have spent going for the quick cash grab, you have to wonder how far along they?d be today if they?d worked on creating a quality product. Something I have preached from day one, if something feels too easy, if it happened to fast, it?s not likely to last. Nothing wrong with taking it, but everything wrong with building your life around it. Eventually they are hauling the boat away, that?s life.

3) An observed contrast between mainstream and adult. It?s all one web, when you disregard morality and delivery issues, you aren?t left with that much of a difference.

I constantly hear people creating this great divide between mainstream and adult. Unless you are talking in terms of delivery of content (regional, work places, age limits), you aren?t left with much of a difference. And really, the aforementioned differences don?t really account for much of the overall transpirations of your business ideals. The only real separations I see are self-applied. Mainstream focuses on longer term plans, as well as solid, creative and unique marketing plans. They don?t give up on an idea in two weeks.

The main differences are the people.

I recently sat in the Adtech opening seminar in San Francisco. They had the President of Marketing from Levi?s Straus give a speech. He broke down several Levi Straus marketing plans, along with marketing plans from various companies. The marketing breakdowns included television, print and of course, social media. With almost every marketing aspect covered, I could invariably not draw a line in the sand between its application in adult or mainstream. Included in these ideas were marketing plans by major companies that were budgeted at 0. Something to think about?


4) The business is over because everything is free now.

I recall the first time it ended, I think it was 2003? Not sure how many of you remember those old dinosaur AVS setups. When those went down, they went down faster than last year?s Versace. One noted example would be Cyberage.com. For those of you unfamiliar with this period of time, the closest thing to an iPhone was talking to your TV while listening to your iPod, Chlamydia still trumped HPV as the socialite bar scene ?must not get? VD, The Buccaneers were on the brink of winning a Superbowl, and Cyberage.com was an enormous brand in the adult industry. Of course, if you visit the site now, you will see that the market corrected itself and eliminated it all-together. Or is it? So wait, Dave survived the end of the world? And today's Buccanneers couldn?t beat a high school marching band in pads if they didn?t get a handicap on the line? Say it isn?t so?time sure is a funny thing.

Remember when Shap was annoying everyone with his trademark infringement, I think he sent me a C&D for BROmaster when I used the color canary yellow in my logo. I guess Shap once owned a canary yellow golf shirt and he thought it brought out his tan. Maybe he was foreseeing the turbulent times that are now? Protecting a brand yesterday looks a little savvy today. Or maybe it was just one aspect of a long-term plan? Or maybe Canadian summers cause Canadian people to go to despicable lengths in order to preserve the semblance of a tan? I?m torn, to be honest.

When you look at what is happening in billing, and in the tube genre, much of it can be attributed to a pretty basic level of market correction. I am not speaking to ethics, in terms of tubes, but no matter how you deem it, it still has its place in market correction.

The issue with today is that every foundation shakes from time-to-time. But sometimes, a foundation goes a long time without shaking at all. It looks like a prime place to build a house. Some people choose (know how) to build a house that can withstand shaking, while others choose (only know how) to build a faster house. When the foundation shakes, it?s obvious who is who.

That's my thoughts. I'm out, gotta go meet some guys in Van Nuys for lunch.

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 17151430)

Are you sure about that? How do you know what their actual business practices are?

For instance, when most folks in this business see me...it's at a webmaster show and I'm having drinks and acting the fool. They have zero idea of what my day to day business is like.

Also, as far as "trend analysis" or A-B testing and other such things...some of us have been doing this online for a looooonnnnngggg time. I have promoted so many programs over so many years and have seen what works and what doesn't work with porn.

I have enough experience to know what I'm doing without doing further testing. I have basically "tested" for 14 years. 99.9 % of the time I know what is going to work and what won't work as far as marketing.

Not saying that doing analysis of stats and testing things isn't important or good business practice. But you get to a point where you master something and you can cut right through all of that and implement stuff quickly and make it happen.

I guess I'm just saying...don't underestimate the people in this business based on posts by some of the folks on here who like to stroke their own egos by claiming that THEY are the ones with all the business acumen.

I can tell you from first hand experience that there are a LOT of smart people who can run circles around most people in this business. No, they aren't successful just because they are "lucky" or some such thing.

If it were so easy back "in the day" to make all that money...then why was it only a handful of us who were successful while THOUSANDS of webmasters failed miserably? Just like now. :)

Originally Posted by CyberAge-Dave (Post 17154897)

Everyone is different for sure, If you are working 80 Hours a week, to you, working 20 hours a week would feel like retirement.

You need to cut some of those hours down bud. That's a lot of hours. :2 cents:

Originally Posted by Shap (Post 17155871)

Dave I know exactly what you mean. If you would have asked me when I started what I'd do when I got to the point I am today. I would have answered retire and never look back. But it doesn't work that way. Your personal goals change. Your lifestyle changes. Your long term goals change. Your network of contacts changes. When I started in this biz all I wanted to do was make $120,000 a year. That was my goal. I thought if I could do that I'm Set. I blew that out and along the way everything changed and continues to change. Even a few years ago I would have said I'd retire if I got to where I am now. But now that I'm here it's opened up a number of doors and I'm seeing what making more means to me. So to continue making what I'm making plus keeping myself current, up to date and well informed is important right now.

All that to say my once long ago thoughts of retirement no longer apply. They will never happen. In fact the retirement most of us grew up thinking about doesn't exist anymore. I always envisioned retiring early and having all the time in the world to spend with my family and do whatever I want. But now that I have a 2 year old little boy I think to myself 'do i want him to see Dad at home everyday doing whatever daddy wants?' Or do I want him to see that WORKING your ASS off pays off HUGE. WORK HARD PLAY HARDER! :winkwink:

Originally Posted by Cory W (Post 17155902)

half-designed-half-programmed-kinda-functioning-business-cards-were-made-too-fucking-early graveyard

Originally Posted by notime (Post 17156301)

Sucessful businesses can spring ONLY from a vast number of happy end users using a good solid working business model, if the business model would suck and the users would not find the appealing X-factor on there, programs would/will be whining and looking for others to blame most likely. Unless they fraude with the users, which is option No. 2 which I would never recommend.

Originally Posted by Cory W (Post 17155902)

I am not much of a board person anymore, Hustler and my own projects keep me busy as is; but here are a few observations that come to mind for me, based on your post, Shap. Hopefully it doesn't lend itself to digression of your original thoughts and points.


1) Everything you said, without question, contributes to a variety of failures and breakdowns.


2) A complete and utter lack of realistic expectations and patience.

Shap, I don’t want to undermine the amount of business proposals you have heard, I am sure you have heard more than your fair share. But I can’t tell you the amount of business opportunities that I have been pitched that inherently reveal how short-sighted people in this industry are is without scope. The dynamic of the plan is usually something that was conceived in a car ride home from a Chinese dive restaurant between two former webmasters and a Chinese chicken chef. It’s usually pitched from the fervent randomness that it was conceived with, which is sort of like listening to a monkey chirp on two eight balls of blow. There is nothing written down at the time of the call, but rest assured, details are coming. And when they come, it’s all different. Why? Because when something is written, it’s like a Heidi Montag without any makeup on, all the shit that is messed up comes shining through. Now the new idea is basically a copy of everyone else’s products that they copied from someone that copied…..Why? Because if you can think up an idea at a Chinese shithole restaurant in Van Nuys, it was likely not an idea that hasn’t been thought of before.

Now comes the timeline and Action Items, because without the mirage of these two functions, the plan is still short of a total waste. The timeline is typically around 30 days, and involved in this timeline is a 15 day risk of total and complete change of focus. If the product doesn’t actually work within two weeks, you can pretty much rest assured that it will fall into a half-designed-half-programmed-kinda-functioning-business-cards-were-made-too-fucking-early graveyard.

You might be thinking, but what about the marketing plan? Well, that was started already with the “something huge is coming” post on GFY and the icq logs with Eric covering how much a banner and skin would cost if this ChineseShitholeCash actually got off the ground.

The point in this is that companies and individuals are short-sighted and grasping at straws so often, they fail to realize that if they would have taken some time and attempted to create a true working product, with a unique marketing plan, and some focus, they’d fair way better.

Let me tell you a true story, when I started my “mainstream” portfolio (that’s in quotes for a reason to be addressed momentarily), I told my partners that if we did this, no one asked about profits for one solid year. The only questions I ever wanted to hear needed to revolve around how we could make our sites more surfer friendly, how we could more succinctly and efficiently divulge information to our readers, and how, in a general sense, we could engage our communities and keep them happy. Over that year, we grew slowly, but every couple of months, we’d look at where we were and we’d semi-celebrate the achievement. There was no profits involved, only monthly losses that got greater with each passing month.

We also had a marketing plan. Much of this plan included picking up the phone and calling people to pitch why we should be considered in their lineups for news. Some of it included creative traffic portals. Some of it included flying to places to get content that served us only for viral marketing.

Now, what type of responses did I get at shows?

“Does that shit actually make money?”
“Why don’t you have a Sex Search ad on there?”
“You should at least be feeding them installs.”
“That’s a fun hobby.”

Of course, how much does that change when business takes a dive? That’s the fantastic part, it doesn’t, which safely gives even more validity to what Shap said. Whenever anyone hears un-inflated profit margins alongside a natural business timeline, they are out. When I tell people a year, they are already refocused on the next idea they can come up with while on the way to an Springroll lunch special.

Let’s try this for a second. I am 34 years old. If I could have a long-term product yielding me nice living by age 40, would I take it? The answer is yes. With all the energy and time that so many people have spent going for the quick cash grab, you have to wonder how far along they’d be today if they’d worked on creating a quality product. Something I have preached from day one, if something feels too easy, if it happened to fast, it’s not likely to last. Nothing wrong with taking it, but everything wrong with building your life around it. Eventually they are hauling the boat away, that’s life.

3) An observed contrast between mainstream and adult. It’s all one web, when you disregard morality and delivery issues, you aren’t left with that much of a difference.

I constantly hear people creating this great divide between mainstream and adult. Unless you are talking in terms of delivery of content (regional, work places, age limits), you aren’t left with much of a difference. And really, the aforementioned differences don’t really account for much of the overall transpirations of your business ideals. The only real separations I see are self-applied. Mainstream focuses on longer term plans, as well as solid, creative and unique marketing plans. They don’t give up on an idea in two weeks.

The main differences are the people.

I recently sat in the Adtech opening seminar in San Francisco. They had the President of Marketing from Levi’s Straus give a speech. He broke down several Levi Straus marketing plans, along with marketing plans from various companies. The marketing breakdowns included television, print and of course, social media. With almost every marketing aspect covered, I could invariably not draw a line in the sand between its application in adult or mainstream. Included in these ideas were marketing plans by major companies that were budgeted at 0. Something to think about…


4) The business is over because everything is free now.

I recall the first time it ended, I think it was 2003? Not sure how many of you remember those old dinosaur AVS setups. When those went down, they went down faster than last year’s Versace. One noted example would be Cyberage.com. For those of you unfamiliar with this period of time, the closest thing to an iPhone was talking to your TV while listening to your iPod, Chlamydia still trumped HPV as the socialite bar scene “must not get” VD, The Buccaneers were on the brink of winning a Superbowl, and Cyberage.com was an enormous brand in the adult industry. Of course, if you visit the site now, you will see that the market corrected itself and eliminated it all-together. Or is it? So wait, Dave survived the end of the world? And today's Buccanneers couldn’t beat a high school marching band in pads if they didn’t get a handicap on the line? Say it isn’t so…time sure is a funny thing.

Remember when Shap was annoying everyone with his trademark infringement, I think he sent me a C&D for BROmaster when I used the color canary yellow in my logo. I guess Shap once owned a canary yellow golf shirt and he thought it brought out his tan. Maybe he was foreseeing the turbulent times that are now? Protecting a brand yesterday looks a little savvy today. Or maybe it was just one aspect of a long-term plan? Or maybe Canadian summers cause Canadian people to go to despicable lengths in order to preserve the semblance of a tan? I’m torn, to be honest.
.

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 17156365)

I can't believe any of you WANT to work your ass off for ever and never retire.

Originally Posted by Shap (Post 17155958)

I think you are forgetting one. They are SUCCESS driven. I'll tell you right now I'm not money hungry. I'm way more SUCCESS driven than money hungry at this point. Success has rewards that money alone can't deliver. To be honest it's probably all about ego. Being successful comes with an ego boost that being money driven doesn't provide (once you've got it).

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 17156408)

That's how employees think.

I for one love working. I don't ever want to stop because I ENJOY the creativity of what I do. And so do lots of others. Why doesn't Mick Jagger "retire" ? The checks will keep coming even if he did. But he doesn't. He LOVES what he does. Why didn't George Burns retire right up until he died? Because he loved it.

Will, I'm an entertainer. This whole porn thing is just another form of entertaining people for me. It's a stage. I LOVE making things to entertain people. Just like I love playing in a band for a crowd in a bar.

It's not all about the money for me at all.

Now if all I did in this business was updating the site and making graphics or doing programming or any of that stuff...then I would be chomping at the bit to "retire". But it's not. And I don't ever want to quit "working" for the rest of my life. Whether I'm creating a porn vid, recording music in my studio, shooting a music vid, or playing guitar in a piece of shit redneck bar in BumFuck...I simply love all aspects of entertaining people.

This just doesn't feel like "work" to me. It's totally like being on vacation and getting paid.

Some people don't understand it...but it's true.

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 17156408)

That's how employees think.

I for one love working. I don't ever want to stop because I ENJOY the creativity of what I do. And so do lots of others. Why doesn't Mick Jagger "retire" ? The checks will keep coming even if he did. But he doesn't. He LOVES what he does. Why didn't George Burns retire right up until he died? Because he loved it.

Will, I'm an entertainer. This whole porn thing is just another form of entertaining people for me. It's a stage. I LOVE making things to entertain people. Just like I love playing in a band for a crowd in a bar.

It's not all about the money for me at all.

Now if all I did in this business was updating the site and making graphics or doing programming or any of that stuff...then I would be chomping at the bit to "retire". But it's not. And I don't ever want to quit "working" for the rest of my life. Whether I'm creating a porn vid, recording music in my studio, shooting a music vid, or playing guitar in a piece of shit redneck bar in BumFuck...I simply love all aspects of entertaining people.

This just doesn't feel like "work" to me. It's totally like being on vacation and getting paid.

Some people don't understand it...but it's true.

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 17156408)

That's how employees think.

I for one love working. I don't ever want to stop because I ENJOY the creativity of what I do. And so do lots of others. Why doesn't Mick Jagger "retire" ? The checks will keep coming even if he did. But he doesn't. He LOVES what he does. Why didn't George Burns retire right up until he died? Because he loved it.

Will, I'm an entertainer. This whole porn thing is just another form of entertaining people for me. It's a stage. I LOVE making things to entertain people. Just like I love playing in a band for a crowd in a bar.

It's not all about the money for me at all.

Now if all I did in this business was updating the site and making graphics or doing programming or any of that stuff...then I would be chomping at the bit to "retire". But it's not. And I don't ever want to quit "working" for the rest of my life. Whether I'm creating a porn vid, recording music in my studio, shooting a music vid, or playing guitar in a piece of shit redneck bar in BumFuck...I simply love all aspects of entertaining people.

This just doesn't feel like "work" to me. It's totally like being on vacation and getting paid.

Some people don't understand it...but it's true.

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 17156429)

I am here 100% for the fact that this is what I know best and where I can make the most money.

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 17156365)

You pointed out a lot of key points that I was touching on.

your goal was to make 120K a year, obviously someone can't retire from making 120K for 5 years muchless one. So that really had nothing to do with retirement. Your comments on the more you make, the more you life style changes. A lot of people spend more when they make more. You right, when that happens you really can't retire and maintain your life style. For example when you started you prolly lived modest and thought if you could get to the point where you had a nice house, 5K a month to spend on enjoyment an and 1 sports car you probably thought you would be happy like that the rest of your life with out having to work much any more. But once you got to that point you might have had 3 sports car, 5x nicer house, and spending a lot more than 5K a month in entertainment, maybe a summer home etc... Well now you can't stop because you would lose those things. So you push harder to make more. Then when you get to that point since you spend up as you make it, now you got a taste for what it is like to have 3 vacation homes, travel all the time, etc etc... if you stop you would lose it etc etc...

I completely understand and get the challenge part and want to create new projects etc.. but I can't believe any of you WANT to work your ass off for ever and never retire. It makes more sense to me that every time you make more you increase your life style and you keep working because you don't want to lose it. Or you are already semi retired and only working 10 - 20 hours a week but you don't consider that as being "retired".

It's like the rich person's rate race. The more they make the more they spend and increase their life style, the more projects and chances they take. They are never satisfied with what they have. Unfortunately, sometimes people push to far or risk too much and the lose most of it or all of it. Either through bad investments, lawsuits, or the market changing.

I wonder how much you two (Shap or Dave) has set a side for retirement. Not having money in your business as a retirement, but a real retirement like IRA's, 401K mutual funds, Annuities, etc... I hope you aren't the types that spend or reinvest in their business and new projects everything you make. That doesn't always turn out for everyone. If you making the kind of money it sounds like you guys are making then you should have a couple million locked up so no matter what happens you can retire if you "change your mind" in the future :winkwink:

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 17156365)

You pointed out a lot of key points that I was touching on.

your goal was to make 120K a year, obviously someone can't retire from making 120K for 5 years muchless one. So that really had nothing to do with retirement. Your comments on the more you make, the more you life style changes. A lot of people spend more when they make more. You right, when that happens you really can't retire and maintain your life style. For example when you started you prolly lived modest and thought if you could get to the point where you had a nice house, 5K a month to spend on enjoyment an and 1 sports car you probably thought you would be happy like that the rest of your life with out having to work much any more. But once you got to that point you might have had 3 sports car, 5x nicer house, and spending a lot more than 5K a month in entertainment, maybe a summer home etc... Well now you can't stop because you would lose those things. So you push harder to make more. Then when you get to that point since you spend up as you make it, now you got a taste for what it is like to have 3 vacation homes, travel all the time, etc etc... if you stop you would lose it etc etc...

I completely understand and get the challenge part and want to create new projects etc.. but I can't believe any of you WANT to work your ass off for ever and never retire. It makes more sense to me that every time you make more you increase your life style and you keep working because you don't want to lose it. Or you are already semi retired and only working 10 - 20 hours a week but you don't consider that as being "retired".

It's like the rich person's rate race. The more they make the more they spend and increase their life style, the more projects and chances they take. They are never satisfied with what they have. Unfortunately, sometimes people push to far or risk too much and the lose most of it or all of it. Either through bad investments, lawsuits, or the market changing.

I wonder how much you two (Shap or Dave) has set a side for retirement. Not having money in your business as a retirement, but a real retirement like IRA's, 401K mutual funds, Annuities, etc... I hope you aren't the types that spend or reinvest in their business and new projects everything you make. That doesn't always turn out for everyone. If you making the kind of money it sounds like you guys are making then you should have a couple million locked up so no matter what happens you can retire if you "change your mind" in the future :winkwink:

Originally Posted by mpahlca (Post 17156590)

Shap used to have money but his wife went shopping in Miami now he is broke and I have to do payroll with mcdonalds coupons :( P.S. don't tell the office, or our photographers none of them like Mcdonalds :(

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 17156365)

but I can't believe any of you WANT to work your ass off for ever and never retire.

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 17156365)

I wonder how much you two (Shap or Dave) has set a side for retirement. Not having money in your business as a retirement, but a real retirement like IRA's, 401K mutual funds, Annuities, etc... I hope you aren't the types that spend or reinvest in their business and new projects everything you make. That doesn't always turn out for everyone. If you making the kind of money it sounds like you guys are making then you should have a couple million locked up so no matter what happens you can retire if you "change your mind" in the future :winkwink:

Originally Posted by Cory W (Post 17155902)

I am not much of a board person anymore, Hustler and my own projects keep me busy as is; but here are a few observations that come to mind for me, based on your post, Shap. Hopefully it doesn't lend itself to digression of your original thoughts and points.


1) Everything you said, without question, contributes to a variety of failures and breakdowns.


2) A complete and utter lack of realistic expectations and patience.

Shap, I don?t want to undermine the amount of business proposals you have heard, I am sure you have heard more than your fair share. But I can?t tell you the amount of business opportunities that I have been pitched that inherently reveal how short-sighted people in this industry are is without scope. The dynamic of the plan is usually something that was conceived in a car ride home from a Chinese dive restaurant between two former webmasters and a Chinese chicken chef. It?s usually pitched from the fervent randomness that it was conceived with, which is sort of like listening to a monkey chirp on two eight balls of blow. There is nothing written down at the time of the call, but rest assured, details are coming. And when they come, it?s all different. Why? Because when something is written, it?s like a Heidi Montag without any makeup on, all the shit that is messed up comes shining through. Now the new idea is basically a copy of everyone else?s products that they copied from someone that copied?..Why? Because if you can think up an idea at a Chinese shithole restaurant in Van Nuys, it was likely not an idea that hasn?t been thought of before.

Now comes the timeline and Action Items, because without the mirage of these two functions, the plan is still short of a total waste. The timeline is typically around 30 days, and involved in this timeline is a 15 day risk of total and complete change of focus. If the product doesn?t actually work within two weeks, you can pretty much rest assured that it will fall into a half-designed-half-programmed-kinda-functioning-business-cards-were-made-too-fucking-early graveyard.

You might be thinking, but what about the marketing plan? Well, that was started already with the ?something huge is coming? post on GFY and the icq logs with Eric covering how much a banner and skin would cost if this ChineseShitholeCash actually got off the ground.

The point in this is that companies and individuals are short-sighted and grasping at straws so often, they fail to realize that if they would have taken some time and attempted to create a true working product, with a unique marketing plan, and some focus, they?d fair way better.

Let me tell you a true story, when I started my ?mainstream? portfolio (that?s in quotes for a reason to be addressed momentarily), I told my partners that if we did this, no one asked about profits for one solid year. The only questions I ever wanted to hear needed to revolve around how we could make our sites more surfer friendly, how we could more succinctly and efficiently divulge information to our readers, and how, in a general sense, we could engage our communities and keep them happy. Over that year, we grew slowly, but every couple of months, we?d look at where we were and we?d semi-celebrate the achievement. There was no profits involved, only monthly losses that got greater with each passing month.

We also had a marketing plan. Much of this plan included picking up the phone and calling people to pitch why we should be considered in their lineups for news. Some of it included creative traffic portals. Some of it included flying to places to get content that served us only for viral marketing.

Now, what type of responses did I get at shows?

?Does that shit actually make money??
?Why don?t you have a Sex Search ad on there??
?You should at least be feeding them installs.?
?That?s a fun hobby.?

Of course, how much does that change when business takes a dive? That?s the fantastic part, it doesn?t, which safely gives even more validity to what Shap said. Whenever anyone hears un-inflated profit margins alongside a natural business timeline, they are out. When I tell people a year, they are already refocused on the next idea they can come up with while on the way to an Springroll lunch special.

Let?s try this for a second. I am 34 years old. If I could have a long-term product yielding me nice living by age 40, would I take it? The answer is yes. With all the energy and time that so many people have spent going for the quick cash grab, you have to wonder how far along they?d be today if they?d worked on creating a quality product. Something I have preached from day one, if something feels too easy, if it happened to fast, it?s not likely to last. Nothing wrong with taking it, but everything wrong with building your life around it. Eventually they are hauling the boat away, that?s life.

3) An observed contrast between mainstream and adult. It?s all one web, when you disregard morality and delivery issues, you aren?t left with that much of a difference.

I constantly hear people creating this great divide between mainstream and adult. Unless you are talking in terms of delivery of content (regional, work places, age limits), you aren?t left with much of a difference. And really, the aforementioned differences don?t really account for much of the overall transpirations of your business ideals. The only real separations I see are self-applied. Mainstream focuses on longer term plans, as well as solid, creative and unique marketing plans. They don?t give up on an idea in two weeks.

The main differences are the people.

I recently sat in the Adtech opening seminar in San Francisco. They had the President of Marketing from Levi?s Straus give a speech. He broke down several Levi Straus marketing plans, along with marketing plans from various companies. The marketing breakdowns included television, print and of course, social media. With almost every marketing aspect covered, I could invariably not draw a line in the sand between its application in adult or mainstream. Included in these ideas were marketing plans by major companies that were budgeted at 0. Something to think about?


4) The business is over because everything is free now.

I recall the first time it ended, I think it was 2003? Not sure how many of you remember those old dinosaur AVS setups. When those went down, they went down faster than last year?s Versace. One noted example would be Cyberage.com. For those of you unfamiliar with this period of time, the closest thing to an iPhone was talking to your TV while listening to your iPod, Chlamydia still trumped HPV as the socialite bar scene ?must not get? VD, The Buccaneers were on the brink of winning a Superbowl, and Cyberage.com was an enormous brand in the adult industry. Of course, if you visit the site now, you will see that the market corrected itself and eliminated it all-together. Or is it? So wait, Dave survived the end of the world? And today's Buccanneers couldn?t beat a high school marching band in pads if they didn?t get a handicap on the line? Say it isn?t so?time sure is a funny thing.

Remember when Shap was annoying everyone with his trademark infringement, I think he sent me a C&D for BROmaster when I used the color canary yellow in my logo. I guess Shap once owned a canary yellow golf shirt and he thought it brought out his tan. Maybe he was foreseeing the turbulent times that are now? Protecting a brand yesterday looks a little savvy today. Or maybe it was just one aspect of a long-term plan? Or maybe Canadian summers cause Canadian people to go to despicable lengths in order to preserve the semblance of a tan? I?m torn, to be honest.

When you look at what is happening in billing, and in the tube genre, much of it can be attributed to a pretty basic level of market correction. I am not speaking to ethics, in terms of tubes, but no matter how you deem it, it still has its place in market correction.

The issue with today is that every foundation shakes from time-to-time. But sometimes, a foundation goes a long time without shaking at all. It looks like a prime place to build a house. Some people choose (know how) to build a house that can withstand shaking, while others choose (only know how) to build a faster house. When the foundation shakes, it?s obvious who is who.

That's my thoughts. I'm out, gotta go meet some guys in Van Nuys for lunch.

Originally Posted by Robbie (Post 17156451)

I'd take a guess that one of the reasons this is what you know best and have the most success with is because you love what you do. Something drove you in the beginning to pursue your particular field of expertise and if you are any good at it, it becomes almost a part of who you are.

Originally Posted by Shap (Post 17156660)

LOL you aren't married are you? :1orglaugh:1orglaugh




My success came very fast. I remember when i started I made $3000 a month very quickly and then within 10 months I was making more than $30,000 a month. I'm very logical and reasonable in my thought process. There is no way I should have been making that money. I didn't deserve it. So based on that thinking I always felt the end was always very near and I'd wake up one day and the dream would be over. I always wanted to be in a situation if that day came I could walk away and say I Crushed It, saved enough to never work again and I have no regrets. I see so many guys that have blown it all and have nothing to show for it. The most important thing to me isn't houses, cars, trips, it's 100% the amount I have saved.

I have to admit I'm like you. I'd love to know how much people have set aside for the future. When I have industry friends who blow money I try to pull them aside and share with them my thinking. There are a lot of people that should have a few million set aside and set for life. Instead they are in debt and have NOTHING but memories to show for it.

Originally Posted by Shap (Post 17156639)

I'm probably one of the very rare cases in the industry. I save as much as possible and have always lived well below my means. In fact if you didn't know me and I was out with other webmasters most people would think I'm the suffering webmaster lol. Not because I'm cheap but because I'm smart and don't throw money around. I remember when I started I had no car and yet I still waited until I had $400,000 saved in the bank to buy my first car. When I did I bought a brand new Acura Integra Cash. That was almost 10 years ago. I waited and waited and waited. I've never had any debt.

I'm not really interested in a 5x bigger house. Having money has afforded me the luxury of traveling to some really great places in the world. I've also had the chance to experience some absolutely amazing experiences in life. Each experience changes what is important to me and what type of life I'd like to live. Each experience has also opened me up to new people. For example when I started I knew no one making 40k a year. Within the industry and outside I've met more and more successful people. In the last year I've met a few guys worth over $100 million each. I would have never dreamt to meet people in that category 10 years ago. Meeting them has changed the way I think of retirement. Each new acquaintance and experience opens my eyes to what doors and opportunities money opens up.

I remember when I thought if I had $1,000,000 in the bank I could live forever without working again.

Originally Posted by will76 (Post 17156788)

not even close for me. I came across ifriends looking for girls online. Realized it was a pay site and noticed a couple guys online. Figured if those clowns could make money I could to. For shits and giggles made an account and boom started making money. Would come home from my bartending job all night, spend 1 hour on cam and make 3x more money then go to class a couple hours later. I didn't particularly like having dudes look at me, so as soon as I made enough money I hired someone to make me my first site so I could retire my short cam career. I did well with it, quit the job, graduated school shortly after and then start working as much as I could.

It was addicting because I could make money 24/7 which was wild and the more I worked the more I made. Where as all the ways I made money previously was from a job, which I could only work so many shifts a week and could only make money when I was actually there. I learned as much as I could, and the rest was basically history. I stuck with what I knew best because that is what made me the most money, and vice versa. After 10 years of promoting cam sites, having been an owner, working with chat host, etc.. I guess you learn a few things.

There is nothing else I could do right now to make more money then I could from working online. I invest in other things but because of the real estate market tanking have been set back a few years from being able to retire. I am not here because of fun, because it is my life style or chosen profession or because I like looking at porn. I am here because it makes me the most money. When i make "enough" I am off to playing monopoly for a couple hours a week with my investments and spending the rest of the time chillin on the beach and taking it easy and enjoying life. The rest of you guys can keep on pluggin away, more power to you. That wont be me.