200 reasons :)

good thread, many good points

True dat.

I always love a good Shap business thread where most stay on point and dig into an issue.

This must be the first thread in YEARS, that got so many replies in a short period of time...

Cant remember when was the last time a business thread had 5 pages in the same day. Incredible.

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I'm surprised how fast this thread blew up and how little it got off track

I know. I made this post real quick and then logged off and went to the gym for a workout. When I was done it was already page 2. Surprisingly with no flaming just discussion.

I think one of the reasons ppl are responding en masse is that many of us spend a LOT of time these days (and way more then we want to) analyzing this situation and trying to figure out our next move(s). For each person on this board it's going to be differant because it seems that every one of us has a totally unique situation (where we live, how we get by, what we NEED to get by and be successful, etc).

A wise man once said - I think it was Ruff, actually - that those who can hold on during all this turmoil will be better off because we survived the shake-up. I'm paraphrasing (Ruff said it better). But I took it to mean: hang in there, do your work, work even harder and more consistently (if you can) and ride out this storm. What's on the other side is either a better landscape of a dead one. So fairly soon we, as an Industry, are going to know if ther IS an "industry" left after the dust settles. Maybe 2 years.

scammers scammed scammers, scsrewed the few decent business people left....

There's just a weird general vibe of despair in this thread. It's harshin' my mellow man. :(

Exactly.

However there are some idiots, saying that giving a complete SITE RIP MEMBERS area for free via rapid links, torrents or rapid clones, on forums like extreme-board or pornbb, is a "marketing strategy". But again, I believe the only ones saying something like that are the same owners of those illegal sites or clones of those sites. Because the owners of those illegals sites, are adult webmasters too.

And no, im not talking about tubes.

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Is it worth a final bump?

I think that the majority of the online adult companies are forced to take a good look at their current business model and the way they operate their business to remain successful in the upcoming years.

Now-a-days you need to offer your consumers a higher entertainment value in terms of more functionality, features and of course top quality of services/content.

Personally I think strategic collaborations > joint ventures are the only way to grown again and battle against the competition to make a difference. Maybe it will be like in the airline business where certain companies merge into groups to survive and grown.

You can think of a pay sites having live video chat integrated in the member areas, integrated social community aspects, scheduled broadcasting live shootings, online guest performances from contract girls and much more.

Today it's all about communication that's why sites like Myspace, FB and Twitter are so popular.

We are all facing more difficult times because of this shitty world wide recession which for sure is not yet over and has a hard impact in every economy.

For myself I tried to be smart by investing in making a new live video chat platform but now I'm forced to make a pact > joint venture with one of the players to initiate some added value for both parties.

Personally I know there is still money to be made in adult space.

One thing to note, in regards to how easy it was to make money and get started in this industry, even more so in the earlier years. There was a lot of people who had no business skills what so ever, all they had was a pc and internet connection, perhaps a girl friend they could take nude pictures of, or a decent camera and they tried to find girls etc... point being there was no previous success, business skills or even much of an investment (money) required to get started.

Even though some people made money a lot of them didn't learn how to conduct a business properly. How many of you have no budget, terrible accounting, don't have your own INC or LLC setup, have no goals, focus, terrible at keeping track of records, stats, etc. You can get by being terrible at business if the money is pouring in but when the flow of money shrinks your faults become a lot more apparent.

That is just how it hurts themselves, the same people with bad business skills are also the ones that are likely to be late paying you, scam you, steal from you, have poor communication, rarely follow through on a deal etc... You know the guys who make a lot of money but who are always broke. The people who try to look rich instead of being rich.

This can happen from poor general life management as well. It doesn't necessarily mean they suck at business, maybe they just suck all around at keeping affairs in order.

But that's really neither here nor there. What bugs me is this fascination with being perceived as "rich". Why is that the standard around here? If you're not rich or perceived as being rich, that means you suck at business?

Being rich is not the final goal for everyone. :2 cents:

Dead on what I was trying to say earlier :thumbsup

I agree and I don't judge someone based on that.

Live shows seems to me to be the best way to go. Not just 1 - 1 but just live shows to as many as want to watch knowing it's happening raw and unedited. We run them on our paysite and they are a winner. People buy a membership just to watch them.

The future is looking after those who will pay to join and giving them more reasons to sign up.

#1 Why are pornstars on Twitter GIVING AWAY their services? If they want to have a social interaction in their private life that's fine but if they are on Twitter as their pornstar persona and having interaction with potential customers to the point of sexual gratification and those customers don't need to go to an adult site for it in my opinion the pornstars have failed at their business.

They should tweet something like " Hey guys I just left this trashy lingerie store and you won't believe what I'll be wearing in my cam show this friday at 8:00 " If they are having free tweet sex with guys that is a direct competition to you than this is another example of how the industry just gives it away.

#2 You can't really count the adult industry as disposable entertainment. People will always have a need for it. It's almost like food. You can spend most of your time doing whatever you like but at some point you are going to the grocery store. Those that have a need for porn won't give it up because they found something else to occupy their time.

So what's the answer.

The economy has to rebound and get back to the days when people had disposable income and are free to spend on other things besides the necessities.

It's been pointed out that the next big innovation doesn't lie around the corner so attention should be directed towards plugging all the free porn leaks. It looks like a few copyright cases are in the courts now and if things went back to when TV, books, newspapers and magazines wouldn't even dream of using stolen intellectual property it would be a HUGE gain for the legitimate adult industry.

People need to have a better business sense. There's two contributors. Those that create the material and those that sell it. Both need to look at their business practices and refine it to be more productive with a longevity that helps not harms the industry.

The adult business attracts intelligent people with an acute business sense along with shady characters that can't see past themselves. This spectrum of people makes it very difficult for the industry to move forward in a positive manner. Right now it's a battle between the store owners and the looters and the looters are winning.

The desire for porn hasn't changed. It's become more accessible than ever which means more potential customers. What's changed is the way people do business and it's had a negative effect. Shap questioned the lack of leadership and I don't think any single person can step forward and claim that role but wouldn't it be nice if everyone just took one step forward in a positive direction and the industry moved as one.

I believe that live interactive communication IS OBVIOUSLY a huge factor in the future of online porn. Clearly that is a total "Captain Obvious" statement.

The problem with that future is it is a great future for ambitious models, but not so much for most of the rest of us.

Models can market themselves on social sites, they can interact DIRECTLY with their fans via webcams, and they can definitely make bank.

Running a site that allows for this inter-connectivity may be an option for some of us, but in the end I doubt there will be thousands of such sites, in the same way that there are millions of current porn sites.

That leads us back to where we are now - which is selling compelling scenes, that are filmed for the purpose of resale (memberships, clips 4 sale, etc.).

As long as this business model is robbed of its worth by an endless supply of free and stolen content, it is hard to be positive about the future... unless you are a hot chick who can assume the role of a cyber-prostitute.

I guess inventors can do well, creating interactive "real-touch" style hardware and software to assist in the live cyber-sex experiences, but this plan additionally rules most of us out.

In the end, people like porn, but also in the end, people like to hold on to their money.

If they can NOT get porn for free they will pay for it. If they CAN get porn for free, they are less likely to pay. Another "Captain Obvious" statement, I know.

Guys will pay for live escorts, and are now paying for live cyber-escorts as well.

Again, if you are a hot chick, this is all great news. If you are a guy running a porn site... not so much.

The problem is most shooting exclusive content had no clue how to shoot porn and it was so expensive to get a good shooter to do it the size of the site was 1/10 of what it could of been.

Few understood what they were doing and pointed a camera. Today there are some great sites and tons of not so good. Exclusive alone is not the key, in major niches the idea the surfer can see it all is ridiculous.

Actually there are the people who were smart... made BIG $$$ and got out.

There are people who make decent money and are in for the long haul. They are truly good at what they do and they love doing it.

And there are those who havent a fucking clue how to tie their shoes they made a few bucks or a few million.


Sabby:)

This is sadly true. Do you see this changing anytime soon? Unfortunately, based on what I see / hear ... I don't. :(


Right on target.

As a side-note. This is one of the more honest / interesting threads I have ever seen here.

Encouraging!

This is because at the end of the day we are in the entertainment industry guys..and the entertainment industry is based in LA. I was born and raised in LA, and that is what most ppl in LA and the entertainment industry are about..smoke and mirrors. My Dad used to have a name for everyone in LA which is slightly racist so really can't post it here, but the first word starts with n and the second word is rich hehe.

But I completely agree with you.:thumbsup

Well said Paul..I know a ton of big (and small) programs in the last couple of year, as we all do I'm sure, who have been shooting exclusive content with the same results; declining sales. This is where I see the fallacy in blaming everything on the tubes. When you're shooting the same oversaturated content as everyone else..then obviously the surfer doesn't see the value in the "exclusivity" of the content.

my dad uses that expression also. he used it on me when i was a kid- paid on friday, broke by monday.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

This is something that so few in the industry realize..a basic rule of macroeconomics..in times of severe economic downturn, consolidation is usually the key to survival in most markets.

seems like there are lots of reasons but more excuses... been a very entertain thread though.. thanks

Didn't want to say it..but actually it was what my Dad would call me as well. Like I said I grew up my entire life in LA, so was a product of my environment lmao. It's actually behaviour that I'm still trying to correct to this day, quite honestly.

funny comment, based on yer nickname.

I lived in LA for three years so you are 100% correct. LOL N rich indeed! Best advice: don't waste your dough on shiny rims or a $40,000 diamond-encrusted letter (like 'J' or 'P') and wear it round your neck at a club.. :D

well i had a lot of opinions reading this flashflood thread but in the end, i just say, great thread with insightful posts. thanks people. :thumbsup

EVERYTHING is over saturated! Every single thing!

Can you name a truly sellable niche that is NOT available for free via hundreds or thousands of tube sites?

You may film deep throat face gagging for example, and your specific scenes may not be everywhere - but if you do a tube search for face fucking, or throat gagging, or deep throat - you will still find the niche... FOR FREE!

You name it - it is out there FOR FREE!

You can pretend your shit is sooooo unique, but it isn't. If it is, then it is not sellable. If it is sellable, then it is out there, right now, FOR FREE!.

"But on my site I have guys having sex with dead squids, while wearing assless chaps" - maybe so, but if that niche was sellable, others would have copied it by now, and it would be available FOR FREE!

Adapt or die, find a specific niche, blah blah blah! How about we stop giving everything away FOR FREE, and maybe people will have to pay for it again. Do the math....

Again, I said that there is a fallacy in the idea that just having exclusive content alone will make you $ and sales if there were no tube sites. And actually I know of a couple of membership sites (in the past year) that have created unique and innovative exclusive content of entirely new niches never really hit on before..that have been able to kill it in sales.

I also have to note that many of my clients are now telling me that full scene tubes aren't converting as well for them anymore and that tubes with short clips are actually converting much better for their video membership sites.

Whether it's in mainstream or adult there is a lot of NOISE online right now. Michael (mpahlca) and I have been talking about it a lot and we truly feel Content Aggregation is a huge market right now. I think both in adult and mainstream. If you can cancel out the noise and deliver what people are looking for you can see really strong growth.

Here's a dirty little secret for all of you (and since many of you already know this, please forgive):

4-5 minutes is the 'sweet spot' for converting membership sales on tubes. Anything shorter, just a tease (which can also work, sometimes); anything longer (those 10 - 20+ minute scenes you see everywhere) and the surfer justs fast-forwards or 'skips' to the hot spots that turn him on anyway, so in the end the surfer only spends 4-5 ACTUAL minutes watching/jerking it to that 20+ minute clip. So longer is not really 'better', just adds to the endless ocean of free shit.

STOP GIVING AWAY FULL SCENES would be a great place to start.

Really? Wow!

So your clients have informed you that giving EVERYTHING away for FREE does not convert as well as giving LESS away for FREE?

Well knock me down with a feather, that's some slick learning right there!

I thought hahaha did that a couple of years ago. :1orglaugh

Just kidding (sort of)

I hope that "Content Aggregation" works for you. I'm assuming that the trick for success will be all about the execution of the idea.

My point is this; if those same titles my clients are licensing from me are all over the tubes for free, how are my clients earning an roi on content they're paying for legally that is given away everywhere else 100% entirely for free (as you're stating)..and they're not asking for full tube rights for themselves?

I think that most of us in the industry haven't only become lazy when it comes to creating innnovative content..but we've also become lazy and stagnant in how we market (package) the content to the consumer as well.

I feel that laziness...putting everything on "auto" and expecting continued sales growth in today's business world (especially in the online sector) is ridiculous. Even for 1 day. Just my :2 cents: