Some of you say he "attacked"....
I say he "defended"....

but what if, just maybe.... he was pulling his knife to lay it down just like some say he should have done? And what if they gunned him down anyway, and the rest is standard police procedure? No video of this one. We get the shiny polished version only.

:eek7 ??

You never saw 'Rambo'? How is this any different? Guy walking down the road carrying a knife, not bothering anyone. Local cops go berserk and try kill him. This time they succeeded.

How long was the knife blade? Over 3" = illegal in Oakland.

The guy didn't stop and took off running before anyone tazed him.

After being tazed he charged an officer with the knife.

Seems 100% justified to me. He deserved what he got.

If you're gonna be dumb you gotta be tough.

See, to me THAT is the ridiculous question in this argument, not mine. Why stay? Um, the guy would likely be alive if he hadn't run and just allowed himself to be arrested.

"Forced to answer questions"?? Really now, what's so horrible about having to answer a few questions.

"Risk your life" --- What's the greater risk here, offering no resistance when getting arrested or running/brandishing a weapon/threatening officers?


Look, I don't much care for cops either. What I'm saying is there are certain givens when it comes to them. Like it's a given that if you resist arrest you absolutely WILL get hurt. Pull a weapon and refuse to drop it and you WILL get tasered or shot...or both. It's a given. I don't make the rules but knowing this information forces me to side with those saying the guy was an idiot.

It's like, you know that jumping out of a plane at 10,000 feet without a parachute is in all probability going to get you killed, yet you do it anyway. Is it gravity's or the ground's fault for killing you? Or is it your own stupidity?

Here's another given: Cops are not going to stop getting aggressive with people who resist arrest while armed. So what's the point in arguing about it?

Yeah I know, everyone keeps saying that. But would you? I honestly can't say. I don't know how they approached him, and I guess it would make a difference. If a pack of cops came at me looking hostile, I might probably run too. Especially from those cops at that station. We all know how staying put and dealing with them turns out: One puts his knee on your neck while his buddy shoots you in the back.

This thread is entertaining.

They didn't have to kill the guy, shoot him to just take him down. He just had knives, not a gun himself.

Would he? How'd that work out for Oscar Grant?

Why the fuck should I [as a normal everyday civilian going about my business] be required to stop and answer questions from the police? Don't we have some sort of protection from this shit? Aren't they called 'rights' or something?

Apparently both have the same outcome at the Fruitvale BART Station: Death.


Agreed.

Agreed. What did he do prior to pulling his knife that warranted 2 taser attempts?

Because you choose to not look at the vantage point of someone in his shoes. Maybe he missed jury duty or something and freaked out, who knows. You just assume he's guilty of something that is significant enough to chase him down and tase him.

This is a horrible analogy. It doesn't even make sense.

And here's another given: Cops are not going to stop doing whatever the fuck they want to do, every single day of the week, as it suits them. Was there really a reason to even respond to this call? The Oakland police no longer respond to embezzlement, larceny, burglary, grand theft, and a whole list of other shit. But they'll respond to a call about a dude walking with a knife? In Oakland?? :ugone2far

50 dead BART passengers

OMG AMP lol and wow :1orglaugh

You are defending the guy just for the sake of defending him.
You really dident know that yes infact there is a law that says that you cant run from the police.

You honestly would defent a dead bankrobber holding a kid hostage as they could just have placed 4 accurate shots to arms/legs thereby not killing him.

You just hate cops and thats that :winkwink:

Anyways pointless discussion, i will now go see my boat and hopefully catch a salmon

The guy was probably mentally ill and afraid of the police, trying to take on a bunch of cops with a knife or two is insane. He would likely be alive now if he had laid down or laid the knives down and followed instructions. Regardless of what kind of weapon the guy had, you can never take on the cops and come out ahead.

In my city, it is illegal to carry a knife longer than 4 inches, but you can open carry any legal firearm. Our open carry law recently changed.

The police department is freaking out because people are open carrying shotguns and rifles around to test the law.

The Police Chief and City Attorney are trying to get the law changed because they say that as long as people are carrying guns, the police can't do their job of protecting the public. They are now spending more time just observing people who are showing up at mall parking lots with hunting rifles etc.

One effect of the law change has been a drop in robberies at convenience/liquor stores. I think the thugs are more afraid of being shot by a customer or onlooker than they were a few months ago.

Everyone in this thread has been reported to the cyber police. (Backtracing imminent.)

No, it isn't legal.

its quite a few here.

As someone who has been stabbed, you have no clue what you are saying Kristin. A knife close range is more deadly than a gun, as you have multiple angles to kill with, while a gun has one, barrel pointed at you.

My first LE course back in the day had my instructor with a knife 20 feet away, and me with a holstered but cleared firearm. I was instructed to pull and fire before I got stabbed. Three tries, and I died three times.

In a gun fight, you cannot pick and choose what to shoot at, the adrenal dump causes loss of fine motor skills, that's one of the reasons why any firearm training consists of hitting center mass. Pick the largest target, and aim to stop the nervous system. More advanced training like the Mozambique would give the press a field day, but are way more practical in a life and death situation.

Not sure why some people take the side of authority as a knee jerk reaction. Maybe because it makes you feel as though you are on the "winning" side. But that type of thinking is what will get us all oppressed someday.

I have no idea what happened in this case and maybe the shooting was justified. But you have to protect the rights of the people you hate, or society hates. Because by the time the police start violating the rights of regular people, it's too late to stop it. That's why you protect the rights of drug dealers, flag burners, and others you may not like. Because by the time the police start violating your rights, it's too late to stop them.

That's why the police need to be held the to the HIGHEST level of accountability and never be given the benefit of the doubt in any situation. If the police are truly honest and just, then they will have no problem being held to such a high standard. When they start to complain, you have to wonder why.

My mischievous sense of humour wants to troll the fuck out of you but i'm off to watch TV now :tongue:

Which brings me to my next point, that there are far better examples to make your argument over, involving police brutality, excessive use of force, etc, than this one. In this case all the guy had to do was simply submit to being detained. If he was indeed "doing nothing wrong" they'd have had no choice but to let him go. Instead he ran, then resisted. Do that and you get what you get, you take your chances, end of story.



Jeez man. Next time you drive across the border just speed on past the Customs officers, maybe give them the finger as you do so... because why should you have to submit to 'questions', right? You're just going about your business, right? Why should you have to have your time wasted and your privacy invaded just because you're entering another country or re-entering the US? It's your right to not have to answer questions. Don't worry, they won't shoot you either. :D

If you think cops of any flavor don't have the authority to ask you a few questions you're being pretty naive.



Running away is a form of resisting arrest.




Not true, I consider all sides. I'm just telling you the way it is, that's all.

*I* don't assume anything, like I've been saying I just know how it is, that's all. If all he did was miss jury duty why not just put your hands up and cooperate? Then when they're questioning you you tell them your deal. Better than pulling knives and getting shot to pieces, no?



No, actually it's a perfect analogy. Both the cop thing and my example deal with people flying in the face of a certainty. In one, certain death by hitting the ground and going splatt. In the other, by having umpteen bullets go through you and you going splatt. Both scenarios are avoidable, the only constants are the cops and gravity.

You don't see it because you don't want to.



Maybe those things will be looked at and investigated. One thing we can agree on is that if the cops did anything at all wrong in this incident they should be taken to task for it.

But that still doesn't change the fact that the guy was an idiot for pulling knives on armed cops.

This guy wasn't a bank robber or a kid-hostage-holder. Just a guy. But because the cops shot him, he must have been evil.

An American who doesn't carry a gun? That just is un-patriotic. What are you, a Communist? :winkwink:

Isn't that what Oscar Grant did?

Or shoot him in the back.

Yep. All for doing..... what again? What was his crime?





Was he entering the country? Was he doing anything that required interaction with authorities in any way?

Then I am naive. I don't believe the police either have/or should have the right to simply stop anyone they choose for no reason and start questioning them.



Well then I learned something today so it's not a total loss. Running away, having done nothing else, just running away.... is a crime. Good to know for future reference.

Or maybe he knew that missing jury duty automatically issues a bench warrant and didn't feel like going to jail today to straighten it out. There are many reasons for not sticking around to talk to the fuzz.

1. He pulled his knives after he was tased. It's not like he was walking around threatening the police with it, they chased him down and tased him, twice.... good for him for pulling a knife on those fuckers. Too bad he wasn't able to take a few out with him.

2. Better? Well that's kind of subjective. It didn't work out better for Oscar Grant. Same police, same BART station. Why should anyone think they will live through an encounter with those cops?




Bad analogy because you are choosing to jump out of that plane. This guy didn't choose to go looking for those cops.

I don't see it because it's not the same thing.




Agreed.

Like I suggested before, maybe he was taking them out to put them down. Maybe he was killed for no reason at all. And maybe the cops should be legally required to shoot video of every encounter they have from now on so that these questions don't come up. We will never know what really happened to this guy.

Was he walking around with the knife in his hands? Because the police say he "pulled" his knives after they tried tasing him. It can't be both ways.

And no, someone walking around with a knife does not even register with me as unusual in any way. Lots of people carry knives. Lots of people carry guns and other shit too.

They always have a reason.



No, but he did choose to run, and then pull weapons. Thus the analogy stands. Both scenarios have a choice, both have a given, and both have an inevitable end result, both of which can be avoided.



You make it sound as though it's specifically these cops in this particular part of that city who perform their duties this way. Not true. Why just a few years ago here in Winnipeg a couple of young guys were doing a B & E. The cops arrived on scene, the young guys ran. A cop caught up to one suspect, the kid pulled out a screwdriver and came at the cop. He was told several times to put it down, he didn't. The cop shot the 18 yr old guy dead. There was a huge blowup about it and public debate over it. After investigation the cop was cleared.

Funny too is, back then people said "why didn't the cop taser him? He'd be alive now", yet nowadays after several taser-related deaths people now want to ban cops from using them.

I'm not defending the cops, far from it. Some of you seem to think so but you're dead wrong. All I'm saying is they WILL use force when any kind of suspect resists. Bitching about it isn't going to stop that from happening, not in Oakland, not in Canada, not anywhere. In light of that I'll stick with my opinion that it's probably better to give yourself up and deal with the assholes in court rather than being a hero and pulling a weapon thinking your piddly little pigsticker has a hope in hell against a group of cops armed with guns and tasers.

right or wrong, just don't fucking do it. Hopefully none of us find ourselves in that situation.

It's simple really:

Don't charge at police with a knife in each hand and you won't get shot.

This man wanted to do harm to some one, either the cops or himself. He got what he wanted.

Is it hard to shoot somebody in the legs? In my opinon the police should show extreme restraint in using deadly force. The police must newer be allowed to forget that they exist to protect and serve the public, not to dominate it.

I'm confused by the twice tasing to no affect:
- Did the cops miss twice trying to tase him?
- Or did they connect and the tasers just had no affect on the guy?

It's close to impossible. You might get lucky here and there, but as a standard practice, it's a total wash.

LOL... You are funny. This is a perverse form of entertainment for you I think. Maybe try a hobby like making model ships in bottles or basket weaving. Because no one would believe the shit you type.

I support the police killing all of this man's offspring in a form of postpartum abortion. You know, killing the stupid gene that this man was obviously carrying. No sense taking chances that more bad apples were in that barrel. (see, I can take it to the other extreme and sound just as nutty as you).

A surprise type attack, yes...depending on the holster type, this could be hard to stop even for a trained person.

However it doesn't sound like they strolled up on this guy. It sounded like they knew he had a weapon the entire time and after they already hit him with tasers. Normally in this type of situation the officers would already have the weapons out, and probably at the ready before engaging him again. I can only assume they gave him verbal warnings, but with multiple officers shooting him, it's more than plausible.

It's very possible to stop an aggressive target with your weapon already at the ready or even close to it. He may not live, but you really only need one shot and it can be put in a spot that might not kill them, with very little effort.

Bullshit, I could hit somebody in the legs that was moving towards me without any problems. Just because it is easier to shoot somebody in the chest doesn't mean that is the right way to go.

LOL. Okay Rambo.

Stand in front of a mirror and look at how much of your body that are legs. How bad a shooter would you have to be to miss them from less than 10 meters? I'm no rambo, but I can hit a coke can from 10 meters in less than 2 sec from pulling my gun, it is not that hard.

I have no doubt that you can nail the Coke can. If we were talking about an absolutely stationary object, I would agree with you. But we are talking about a man running full speed at you. It's a little different.

I think what Sly is trying to tell you is that not only is it standard practice among most police forces but it's simply not as reliable a shot to aim for the legs. The legs on an attacking perp are moving, they're narrower than the torso, if your shot does happen to miss there's a larger chance of it ricocheting off the pavement/ground etc and hitting an innocent bystander.

Sorry, cops will always aim for the body, dead center, in the heat of an extreme situation where someone with a weapon is attacking.

You saying it's easy and you could do it, well... why aren't you a cop?

The only thing 'easy' about your argument is people who've never been in such a situation second-guessing what trained professionals do. I suggest you go to your local cop shop and try getting as many of them together in one room as you can and then tell them they should be shooting for the legs.

Come back and let everyone know what their reaction was.

A trained person will be able to do it easily, a hot head and cowboy will go for the chest or head as a reflex. I have relatives that are cops and I am pretty sure they would go for the legs in that situation, maybe placing the second shot in the shoulder.

Stray bullets are always an issue, richochet of the pavement is less likely to kill than a bullet that missed the chest or penetrated.

Cops should be able to keep a cool head in extreme situations, they are trained for it.

I don't want to be a cop.

You don't know what situations I have been in. And like I said I'm pretty sure the realatives and friends I have that are cops would go for the legs.

Maybe they just train different here in Sweden.

There are obviously situations where they must go for a kill but I think these cops didn't know the meaning of restraint based on what the media is reporting.

Girls are funny.

Sorry, LEO's are trained 3 rounds center mass here!
If you don't shoot center mass you stand a good chance of missing, we all know most street cops can't shoot very good, BUT that is also not the point.

What if it didn"t stop him, he did knife a police officer in the neck, the office dies, go tell that police officer's family you are sorry, you wanted to just Wound this person.

Come on Guys, this is Apples and Oranges of the ruling a couple weeks ago.

Yes AMP, if the knife was over 3" someone posted it IS illegal.
There was a reason the cops were Called, they did not just happen upon this guy!

The multiple firing, showed that the cops all made the SAME decision based on the traing they had. You have a brief second to make a life or death decision, not pull straws on who is going to shoot him.