Btw... Police procedure is overwritten by American Law. We do have a "federal" mental health law in this Country and we do have procedures on dealing with 'knowing or thought to be' people with mental issues, in damn near every State.

To prevent danger to the individual or society... the police have an obligation, to subdue the person.

Now.. I will break out the big guns: 1996 I was diagnosed with a personality disorder. While on duty, with a gun, I lost it and became violent... if the police didn't follow procedure, I would be dead today.

So you can stick all your stupid ass comments, thinking you know theories, bullshit that you heard second hand that nobody really ever told you, that you had to look up to try and apply it to the wrong situation - again, stick it up your ass.

My constant in this thread.

"Shoot till attack is stopped". This is common training with LEO, Self Defense with handgun, and is a fact. You tell me I'm wrong and use your personal stories as proof. I cite you empirical data, and you tell me I'm wrong.

Your argument this whole thread.
1. You can shoot 1 round and stop someone --- Still waiting for proof
2. There's an ammo shortage -- And that matters why in a gun fight
3. Standard training is one shot one kill
4. You can do it, so every police officer or Law Enforcement Officer for that matter should do it.

You've been proven to be wrong. But yet you continue to argue. You bring up your mental breakdown to compare with the shoot out in this thread. Any sane person working with facts and not anecdotes can see that every situation is different. But you cling on desperately with your personal story hoping that it supersedes FBI and every firearms training doctrine I've ever trained with.

You just can't admit when you are wrong.

One more time for your poor reading comprehension. You fucking argued with me in this thread for no other reason than I hurt your feelings.

How sad of a person are you?

Umm... I never said you were wrong, I said this is how we train. What I said was very clear and doesn't need to be twisted. The purpose is to stop the attack or threat, we have both made that clear... what you're ignoring is it doesn't say to kill, it says to stop. That is, actually important.

It's the Police's duty is to use the least amount of force as possible... that's why it doesn't say kill.


1) Joke right? People die / get stopped from one shot all the time, good lord use google. So one shot can be made, it can stop/kill a person, but it might not - which is the point.

2) It matters to other Cops that don't have ammo, that need it... why are we covering this again?

3) If I remember correctly, it's called: One shot, one kill vs. double tap shots. It was repeated in all training I had, other than double tap came in during SRT training. So yeah, rather standard.

4) I'm for sure not the only one that can shoot a gun, far better people trained me.




You haven't proven anything... you posted information and twisted it to match your view point, that's all you did.

They compare because the guy had a history of mental problems and it's the police's job to take in that situation, so it can be treated differently.

So my experience means nothing because your experience supersedes it? Love those twists, really I do.

May want to look at yourself for sadness, cause my feelings aren't hurt, I'm laughing over here. I think you're confused on what an argument is... maybe your're letting your emotions get the best of you?




When I replied to you, I never said anything about shooting in the legs or arms (I don't think you would do this). And I have said many times, they shoot to stop the attack.

Being that you like to twist things for whatever reason...

My reply back to you in the comment you made above was about hitting a target from 20 feet away with your weapon already at the ready. Not what you tried to twist it to be about and for sure not what you made bold in it - that's you trying to twist things, again.


I'm not arguing with you... I'm simply making you look stupid.

Your experience is anecdotal. Your personal views on a subject.

What I've stated is empirical. Data that is supported and documented.

I didn't ask for Google querries, I asked for YOUR PROOF that YOU SHOT SOMEONE ONE TIME AND PUT THEM DOWN. After Action Report will do just fine.

As I've said in this thread, you are monday morning quaterbacking, and making yourself out to be more than you really are. I really question your training and veracity as a police officer considering you were almost put down for going 5150 as one.

Me:

Shoot till you stop the attack. It's standard firearms training.

You:

I could have done it with one shot, and a host of other bullshit red herrings to obfuscate that you are wrong with your statement that it only takes one, and that's how everyone is trained and you can find it in any manual.


I'm done with you. You constantly accuse me of twisting things around when the only person doing that in this thread is you. You've been proven to me and everyone reading this that you still suffer from disconnection to reality.

I mean really come one, arguing with an FBI Document? You have a great day in that world in your head.

Quoted for the truth:thumbsup




Doc, just stop already. This is your "Vietnam" and your not winning.



Posting more stories in this thread isn't going to make you right. Its not a quantity thing dude.:2 cents:

Wow, just one lame twist after another. You said "You can shoot 1 round and stop someone" - Which again I did prove to be correct, just to make sure we're clear on the twists - This isn't asking me for proof of my actions.

Military Police Action Report? I wasn't aware we had those. However, I don't see how this lame twists changes the fact that 1 round can stop someone. That was your real point after all.


Yes, that's your opinion you have stated that already. It's nice to question my training, it's slick to do it after I questioned you ever talking to any agents about this topics special situation, ie: the person having a mental history.

Really what happened here is, I called you're card and you got pissed.


Odd, I don't remember writing that, but anyway as I have told you and you keep bringing up, I said: "Law enforcement officers are trained to shoot until the threat is stopped, not to shoot to kill."

I don't see why you keep bringing this up.


I'm not accusing you, I have examples of it in this reply. I wasn't aware I ever argued the FBI information you posted.


Enjoy your day...

I don't feel I have anything to win or lose nor am I trying to make anything be right or correct, other than the miss quotes of what I said.

And I agree, stories clearly can only be used if the other party is telling them, mine couldn't be right in this situation. Sorry, I forgot the rules.

Thanks for the advice :thumbsup

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh :1orglaugh


Got to give you props on your wit and sense of humor.:thumbsup

jesus...

this is getting retarded...

Bottom line.. Shoot till they stop (most the time that means dead) at least in my case it does.. im not shooting someone so they can come back tomorrow not how I was trained...

1 shot 1 kill? yes in a perfect world full of headshots on a still target at 100 yards with a 308.. in reality shit happends in a flash...

If im not mistaken and it may have been longer for you than it was for me.. but we were trained to across center mass never up or down.... more of a diagnoal patter from left to right to increase chances of hitting vitals... now I was 0317 so I lived by "one shot one kill" you can run but you will just die tired shit... but dood thats from the crows nest at a distance with timing , breathing , wind, calculations .... spotters ...

not to mention something longer than a 4inch service barrel .....

fact is... you telling me you would stop shooting after the first shot weather it killed the attacker or not? and for you to not want to use the word kill vs stop is just retarded.. and you fly that shield in your fucking avitar .. if you were a marine and have a problem with saying the word kill then you must be an ex marine .... or a fucking tree hugger....

some of the stuff you said in here is just retarded ....

keep in mind people on here may say what they want blah blah .. but keep in mind I still pass all psych test from the gov and any clearance I wanted ....

you by your own admission were diagnosed with personality disorder....

now who's the logical one here?

bottom line is this.. I would teach any female that I teach handgun courses to to shoot till the attacker is not fucking moving.. drop your mag and reload if you must.. just keep shooting.....

also brother... it's hard to prove your scared for your life with a "1 shot 1 kill" theory

remember you have to convince 12 people that you were scared... pulling a fucking hathcock shot off when your in fear of your life is a little hard dood... much easier to prove your scared for your life if you unload a mag into an attacker cause thats WHAT PEOPLE DO WHO ARE SCARED...

I know for a fact I could make a standing headshot on anyone with my handgun oh say up to 75yards... could I do it under pressure and adrenlin ? I like to think I could but if my life were in danger I would not bet on it unless I had to... I would pump a min of 2 rounds centermass.....

1 shot 1 kill is nothing more than a single shot, it should be in the body.

How about with the person 20 feet away with your weapon at the ready, on the person.. shooting for the chest? This is what I said.




If the situation is like above, then yes. If someone was shooting at me, hell no... But with the topic situation, even a one second pause between rounds is enough to know if you need another shot.

Saying the word kill? That's what I'm saying the difference is, it's stop the attacker, not kill them to stop them.



I'm not sure what this has to do with your question.

But yes I was, due to the events in my life at that time. It doesn't relate to anything today unless those events or something like it happened again - which was a rather extreme part of my life.


I would recommend people do that too... I never said otherwise.

Could you do it from 20 feet, no major threat on you like a gun? Single shot, center mass... say 2x2 your left? Like, let's say the person was holding a knife - pointing it at you but also holding a baby - he advances towards you, right side of the chest is open - your gun at the ready already on that spot, 20 feet away - could you hit the chest?

This was a special situation, a known mental history person. Thus "I feel" they used too much force, that's really all my point has been. That's why it relates to my situation too.

you have this dream that the cops know excatly who they are dealing with when they get a call...

9 times out of 10 all they get is a call like

413 on fremont..

person with a gun on freemont

413a person with a knife.. you won't find out until after the fact he was mental.. unless you happend to be lucky and are privy to that info before you arrive ....

in a perfect world you would know who what when and why.. in reality you know person with a knife....

I understand what your saying and in a perfect world I might agree.. but in reality it is what it is... as far as I see id rather the cops do it than me have to... ive pulled my gun once on a mentally deranged guy downtown.. did I shoot? nope he was smart enough to walk away.. but I can say honestly if he took one more step twords me I would have put 10rds in his chest...

as for baby being held hostage ? thats different... tottally different... if your being charged with a knife in one hand and baby in the other.. thats tough I hope to god im never faced with that situation I can say I would react on what felt natural at the time... something like that you can't plan there are to many variables .... I know what would sound good to do.. one shot one kill headshot.. but could that be done? who knows... like I said I know I could make the shot.. now under pressure? who knows... you like to think training would kick in and it would be a reaction rather than an action ... but you never know....

hey I just want to apologize for using that in my debate it was rather uncool of me.. having been over there I have seen first hand wrong diagnoses on that shit when most the time it's ptsd and brough on by stress...

while I don't agree and still want to debate some I just wanted to apologize on that part I brought up....

now back to the debate.....

I'm not sure if you have read what happened in the full story... But witnesses said the man said several times prior to being shot, "Shoot me, shoot me." - I don't know man, I take that is pretty off the rocker, then he runs away and decides to attack a gun with a knife? That's crazy round 2.

Thanks Marine!

suicide by cop ...

very common...

and you know as well as I do that it's not hard to disarm someone who has a gun with a knife

specally when you get in that golden 21ft range ... they always told us stories for POW's that within 21 feet they can attack you with the knife before you can register whats happening in your brain then you have to make a choice on how to react.. then you have to then send that signal from brain to said body part.. trigger finger is closer than feet are....

these are just stories I have heard "horror stories to scare us" if you will... almost like the video every grunt watches of the man who holds his grenade to long... thats to scare the shit out of you and show you reality...

bottom line is you shoot em all and let god sort that shit out later.. you know that...

if he's crazy enough to charge a cop with a knife think what he might do to your wife and kids to get you to react to him .. if he's got a deathwish I say grant that motherfucker... im a genie in a bottle for those types of people... why the fuck should we have to pay for his mental health ... someone like that statistically is not going to ever be a "functioning person of society" they will be off their fucking rocker for life... it's shitty I know cause we all have that "crazy cousin" but fuck man... he charged a cop with a knife... you know why you and I are here typing on gfy right now rather than 6ft under?

cause we don't charge cops with knifes.....


if you and I were hanging out and a cop pulled up to the donut shot across the street.. and I was like watch this man im going to charge that cop with this hear kabar all alfred hitchcock psycho style see what happends?

what would you honestly say?

I know what I would say....

it would be these exact words..

"are you fucking crazy? he will shoot you to death you go ahead and do that if you got a deathwish"

do you agree?

you honestly think the cop was supoosed to step aside and go for the tazer? a knife in a crazy persons hands is considered a leathal weapon

just say it to your self like that

would you consider a knife in a "not right" persons hands a lethal weapon?

that go's for homicidal crazies and kids named steven crazy ... you don't give special ed kids knifes cause they are lethal to them and everyone around....


and no honestly I did not read the story I just read the debate and chimed in LOL......

hey im honest right?

Deadly force, as defined by the United States Armed Forces, is the force in which a person uses, causing or that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causing, death or serious bodily harm. The use of deadly force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort, when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed.
Firearms, bladed weapons, explosives, and vehicles are among those weapons the use of which is considered deadly force. The use of non-weapons in an aggressive manner, such as a baseball bat or tire iron, may also be considered deadly force.
"Use of deadly force" is often granted to police forces when the person or persons in question are believed to be an immediate danger to people around them. For example, an armed man in a shopping mall shooting at random without regard to the safety of the people around him, and refusing or being unwilling to negotiate, would likely warrant usage of deadly force, as a means to prevent further danger to the community.


so I think we all agree that a man shooting in a mall at random would be just as "crazy" as charging a cop with a knife right?

how about this



this should end all...

No one thats sane is shot by the cops cause you gotta be crazy to fuck with em .. specally with weapons...

bottom line..

sane people arent in situations where cops have to pull guns on them regardless... so your mental theory is out the window again cause then your saying everybody in a PIS is mental right?

I support this and I feel bad for the dog and his handler

http://www.noob.us/miscellaneous/pol...-man-81-times/

That's a lot of questions..

If you surprise someone, yes in 20 feet you can for sure get them. But, not so much if you're fully in the ready - that would be a damn tough miss.

Just to note as well, 20 feet was a number I picked - this guy died in an open area, I only assumed the police were engaging him when he turned, so I picked 20 feet. I figured with multiple officers shooting, he had to be some what close, but I'm not really sure. It could have been 3 feet or 50.

I agree, if someone is attacking you - kill them dead. As well, if you attack a cop, you should expect to die.

They had already went for a taser, before he ran the first time - he had the knives then too.

It is the police's duty to protect all citizens, that includes protection from yourself too. That's if they knew he was off his rocker of course, but I really think asking the police to kill you is a huge warning sign.

I don't disagree with what they did, I just think they could have used different force, less force.. maybe given the guy a chance.

Oh I don't think what they did was wrong or broke any laws or anything... I know they had the right to do what they did.

That other part between the bolds is pretty important though: The use of deadly force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort, when all lesser means have failed

Yes, reasonable too... could they have only shot him once, used a taser, pepper spray? Maybe so, then again I don't really have enough of the story to know how they approached him.

a chance to do what though?

and honestly what type of "good deadly" force is there? shit id rather go out in a blaze of glory than in the chair do you agree?

no I said 21ft .. in all weapon classes there is the 21ft barrier .. it;s pretty common 21ft 7 yards... most ccw's you have to qualify at 7yrds... to be NRA cert expert I had to hit shots rolling running.. all were at 21 ft.. I dunno who came up with it I just follow it.. if your within 21ft of me shit you can have a rock for all I care if I feel it could possibly kill me your getting killed...

A chance that he can get help and not be 6 feet under... just a chance at life, not everyone that loses it, deserves to die or needs to die.

The 20 feet I'm referring to was in my other post about the guy. I didn't know if this guy with the knives was 100, 50, or 20 feet when he turned on them. I understand the closer a person is, the more you best make sure you kill them, before they get you.