Agreed.... Recurring customers that cards get declined don't email in asking what's up, they know what's up. Just like the person that didn't really have the money in the first place.

If the pre-auth is based on money (from what I know), no reason to send them to anyone, unless it's based on the scrub factors, like address/zip/card issue match being off. I think the pre-auth is to see if the account has the funds though...

I have to look into the "pre-auth" decline issue a bit more, honestly. All I know is when I get one of those emails from CCBill, and then I check the Epoch stats, I do not usually see a form hit, which indicates to me the attempted sale has cascaded.

As for forms: I went back-and-forth with CCBill to get a custom form created for months. We finally settled on one that I think is awesome, and has increased sales overall by upwards of 30%. I tried using the "standard" form you described, as close as I could, but sales were not as good as the forms I have now. But basically yes, how a form looks/feels is really crucial. :)

And i suggest that anyone using CCBill look into how their forms are converting for them, A/B test them as best you can, and try and streamline/simplify the forms as much as possible. I can attest that CCBill is really helpful when it comes to forms and designs and will totally work with you to improve things.

Customers that want to join your site and can't will contact YOU. (the site owner)
Not all, but some will. I know for a fact because I get them every so often.

Most are either "i don't have a credit card" or "i don't want to use my credit card" or something of that nature. Hell some even email asking what the charges will show up as on their statement.

So the fact that they wont email you is NOT TRUE.

If the problem is as prevalent as some of you suggest, for as long of time period that has been suggested, there would be a plethora of these emails surfaced by now.

Mr. Peabody,

Here is a little tip if you want to make better sense of your stats.

I assume that you pay close attention to your join form loads.

I'll also assume that you have an unusually high amount of join form loads to actual joins.

This is because your prices are not disclosed and your surfers have to load your join form in order to see the price.

My advice to you is to disclose your price beforehand and then analyze your stats again after a few weeks.

This will give you a little bit better of an idea on what's going on because then only people that are truly interested in joining will be loading the join page.

I think my explanation of people's buying patterns and reactions to declines is more accurate. yes, I do get emails from people asking if they can Join by PayPal, etc. But if a guy tried to Join MILF Mia, say, he wouldn't be able to email the site. Her personal addy is in the Member's Area. It's one of the perks/enticements for Joining.

So a surfer MAY, once denied, go back to MILF Mia, find no email link, then go to Mister Peabody World and find the contact email - to ME, not Mia - and write me. But that's a REAL fucking motivated buyer, now isn't it? The overwhelming majority are going to assume the denial was because of THEM, not the site, or contact the biller. IMHO, of course.

But to say "If this were the case there'd be thousands of emails" is just plain wrong, sorry. CCBill and other billers are smart at this "game" and are not going to do anything that would send up "red flags". Only the interested and canny observer can detect these patterns, if at all. So again, someone gets declined, tries again a few days later, get approved. Where's the complaint email? There is none. It's in this way, I suspect, that billers "hide" such things as scrubs, declines, throughputs, etc etc. In fact, I would say the billers COUNT ON the kind of reaction/explanation BV provides, as further cover for these type of (understanble) "adjustments".

The problem, as has been stated over and over, is that we, the business owners, are left with this guessing game/Sherlock Holmes nonsense.

I already A/B tested showing the price vs. NOT showing the price, and have taken into consideration the fact that form hits will be higher when price is not disclosed. For me, for my sites, not displaying the price showed 80% more Joins this way. The philosophy, as you well know, is to get the guy to the join form at all costs.

Maybe you would get more emails if your email support link didn't 404
http://www.misterpeabodyworld.com/support.htm

Technically you are not in compliance by not having an email address on your join pages.

Also, your affiliates might see a better ROI if you didn't have a shitload of traffic leaks on your tour. (i count 8 at the bottom of the 1st page of your tour) going thru an affiliate link none the less.

You say you got 80% more joins by not disclosing the price?

hahahaha
lol

Dude, this aint my first rodeo!

carry on

I'm going to bow out of this thread now.

Cheers,
BV

PS: You talk a good game at first, but you have a long way to go. :2 cents:

Well BV, if you're gonna turn like that on me then you better back up what you're saying right here and now otherwise I lose respect for you.

1. Where did you see that link? So I can FIX IT.
2. "Not being in compliance by not having an email link on my Join page." Say WHAT? Neither CCBill nor Epoch, both of whom go over every site I submit, has EVER required that. I call bullshit on that one. If I was "not in complaince" how could I get approved?
3. I made pains to point out that by not displaying pricing it helped MY sites by 80%. There was a 5-1 differance between joins when I displayed the pricing vs. when i did not. I do not care if you believe this or not.
4. "Traffic leaks" and ROI? You know nothing about my affiliates 'ROI'. Traffic leaks where? To other sites that require a recip link to post pics/videos there? Technically true, but you know damn well that's the price you pay to get traffic from some websites. Finally, those "traffic leaks" are on the Splash page, and most of my (smart) affiliates send their traffic to the 2nd (main) tour page, by-passing said "leaks".

This ain't MY first yada yada either bud. Now I did not ask for advice on how to improve overall sales. This thread is about CCBILL and other billers. If you would like, I can certainly give YOU a detailed overview of your ugly-ass looking piece of shit sites, too, and how to "improve" them. Take shots out of nowhere and you get 'em back.

No harm intended.

I was just pointing out a few observations trying to help.

I was following links from the review sites Porn Inspector and Rabbits Reviews and saw the leaks. But they aren't your smart affiliates so my bad. :Oh crap

An easy fix (like most of us do) is to set up a leak free tour page for your default link. And keep your root for your own typeins and put your leaks there. It's not good to trade off affiliates traffic.

You billing support link on sexy brandon and the Milf site were 2 that I noticed, looks like they are *.htm & should be *.html

But don't mind what I say, I don't know anything.

PS: I still don't believe you can have an 80% increase in sales by not disclosing the price before the join page.

Actualy, I got upset (apologies, and thank you for explaining) precisely because you DO know so much. I've learned, thru trial and error and FAILING over and over what works - for ME. For my world, as it were. LOL I've actually tried the things you suggested over the years and guess I got upset that you would think me so foolish as to NOT try those suggestions.

"Hey! Why don't I try putting the prices on the join page! DUH!" :D

Review sites are, well, fuck 'em. Sorry reviewers who give my best sites scores of under 70, your recip links go where few will see them, since you send shitty traffic and don't make me any sales anyway. Oh, don't get me started on review sites.....

The main issue here, tho, remains this: Even WITH "leaks" (and I do offer 'leak-free tours' without those recip links to any aff who wants them) and this shitty design element or that odd pricing option, the fact remains that a mysterious "faucet" seems to turn on-and-off without rhyme or reason. And the only "explanation" is the biller. The biller is the weak link in the chain, which is fine if they would only:

A. Let me know some things
B. Leave ME alone and fuck with all of you fuckers instead
:)

I've noticed a decrease in sales thru ccbill when showing pricing. But, there was likely a reason for that, ie programming may have passed info and caused slow page loading.

That being said, there are always reasons for lower sales and includes everything up to surfer completing payment.

I do think ur ccbill custom form is good but needs work. Your price should be up top, only price. Then put recurring in text below form but not immediately above submit.

U will see a 50 percent increase in sales if u can get that approved. Ask lloyd though from ccbill.

That's some great advice there! Thanks so much! I will look into that today. Perhaps Epoch can do the same with their forms.

I believe I've seen a form or two with CCBill where the recurring pricing IS on the bottom so perhaps they can do this. :)

another observation noted repeatedly is when you express your feelings about ccbill sales on gfy, sales simultaneously evaporate into nothing for a few days.

can almost hear them saying..."want to run your mouth about us.... try no sales for a few days...heheheh..that will teach ya"

If you are not getting denials, that would signal you are not getting attempts. How could that be CCBill's fault?

Unless there was a bug in the join page (happens sometimes if you setup a new custom one that wasn't properly tested) - that's all on you.

I agree with others, your sample size here was incredibly small, but the thing you need to be checking from the sounds of it, are your form hits and form submission %s.

CCBill cannot try to charge a card that hasn't been submitted...

What I'm saying is, CCBill may have their own internal calculations as to why they don't submit a Join form to a BANK. If this is the case then the sale does not cascade. IF it goes to the BANK, then gets rejected, THEN it cascades. So CCBill (or any biller) can block Join attempts BEFORE they ever get to the BANK. It does not mean CCBill is trying to CHARGE a card before it goes to a BANK - perhaps, because of fraud detection, or past abuses, or IP issues, or whatever, CCBill blocks them.

Believe me, the custom Join forms have been tested repeatedly.

Form submission percentages, however, and load times, CAN make a big differance and we're looking into those issues more closely. But overall, I would say the odd patterns I see are not related to form load times.

As for sample size: This thread is a result of SIX MONTHS, 500,000+ uniques, and hundreds of thousands in revenue. I didn't go off half-cocked after a week or two, or even after ten thousand visitors. LOL I have rock-solid data that can stand up to any scrutiny. Numbers don't lie.

I say this because you are a friend and I know the workings of CCBill rather well. Any claims that CCBill turns up or down their fraud scrub or "fucks with" your revenues in any way is utterly preposterous. Since they only make money from your completed transaction and in fact loose money on each denial (its still cost them for gateway cost, etc) then is makes no scene for them to refuse qualified transactions.

Did you look at your decline rate or track your bounce rate from your tour/join pages?

If you want some assistance on how to better analyze this, give me a call or email and I'd love to assist but I think there is a probability that a bit more is going on here than just CCBill.

If you still think there are technical issues then Paul K will find it. He knows that system like the back of his hand and is very very capable.

Your load time assessment, may have more merit than you think. As we have discussed in the past, load times over 2 seconds is unacceptable by most users.

:2 cents:

Thank you fine sir! I may take you up on that. I do apologize if I come across like "THEY'RE FUCKING ME!!!" LOL But it's rather obvious that I am not the only one experiencing these perplexing issues. Others have noticed similar patterns on the same exact days as I have, and have recounted their own puzzling patterns. So i don't think it's ME, specifically, but rather a company-wide policy that (eventually) affects everyone.

Still, I want to be totally clear here:

CCBill is a fine comapny. They have been COMPLETELY helpful when these issues arise. I am grateful for their continued attempts to maximize my earnings (and everyone's).

What I'm seeking is an explanation to this:

No sales for X # of hours; switch the cascade (absolutely no other variables change) and WHAM! Sales.

What I seek is an explanation I can live with, to better understand these patterns so that I, the business owner, can make better decisions and take actions based on accurate information. I don't think that makes me nuts, does it? (Should I have asked that? LOL)

:winkwink:

Ah, thanks for explaining it further. From your original comment I took it you were getting no denials, not just denials from the bank. That's why I figured you were getting no attempts.

CCBill does have a HUGE negative database, there is no question; but that's also a major reason why they are still in business, compared to the massive number of companies who have come and gone.

What I would do in your case is analyze your form hits / form submissions with both processors and if the approval rate is that far off, on similar behaviour (hits/submissions), present that to CCBill and try to work out what adjustments can be made to your fraud profile.

That's the advice I was trying to give, but his form hits are going to be way high because there are no prices disclosed on his site until they load the form.

EXCELLENT advice!! Thank you so much for that. :)

This thread has gotten long so it's easy to assume this or that. People are searching for reasons, not just for my situation but for their own, too. So, we search and we question and we try to think maybe it's this or that. ALL very helpful and useful!

Yeah, sorry I was being so thick-headed yesterday BV! :)
I am willing to A/B test the pricing displays again. I did it a while back. The great WOJ has just finished writing me up a brand-new A/B script that's easier (for me) to use so I want to test displaying pricing options again.

True, but they should be as high then for Epoch - so for purposes of a fair comparison between the two, it doesn't matter if they are high, as long as they are consistent.

On this note, the interesting thing is that the form hits to Epoch ARE higher than the form hits to CCBill. Not by much, perhaps 10-15%. This could be a load issue with the CCBill servers, but from my observations the load times are within .5 seconds of each other.

Anyway, further testing is needed, that's obvious. The one thing I do have going for me in regards to testing is that i am fortunate enough (lucky enough?) to have 4-5 sites in my network that are incredibly consistent earners. Like clockwork. That helps a lot with testing. LOL

Really? It looks like 99% of webmasters are wrong then? what do you say?

why don't check those threads where 99% of webmasters say that sales suck lately?

Why don't you compare adult webmaster forums with 3-4 years ago? Traffic decreased 300%.. and many of them closed...most webmasters gone broke and looking for jobs.. So, your sales are better than ever??

I always suspect when someone has a big ego and thinks he's right and 99% of other people are wrong. Keep making up your number, dude.

.

We have a winner.

How's it going for you guys today?

I think I am having one of those "statistical anomaly" days.

Since CCBill implemented that new WMS thing or whatever it was called my ratios and sales dropped drastically. :Oh crap

CCBill's form hits aren't always (ever?) real time.

If you do any A-B comparison, the only meaningful way is to write a server script that exactly divides the clicks to the signup form between the two, alternating one then the other. That's the only way you'll smooth out the variations in time, weekday, week of the month, payday, month, and all the other variables that can affect purchases.

1:807 this month on CCBIll...

I don't want to sound rude or bash ccbill but what's the number of targeted hits sent ?
My point is, if you sent 807 hits this month and made a sale it ain't the same as sending thousands of hits of course

The rollercoaster continues BUT, this being Wednesday, I don't freak out as much. Actually, Tuesdays are notoriously the worst sales day of the week (which is why many retail stores have sales on Tuesdays), and Wednesday is almost as bad. Percentage-wise I'm holding steady tho so this tells me it's a day of the week thing. Now, come Friday....LOL

You are absouletely correct in this observation. A/B testing is best done with a server-side script that does a simple 'split' test: one click goes to A, one click goes to B. This is the type of A/B testing I mean when I refer to my setup. :)

Since you are up... how was your convo with paul K on monday?

I would have to concur, no "CCBILL" sales in over 2 days! That is without question an anomaly for me. That has never ever happened in 6 years!

It's like the past 2 days were masturbation conservation days.

Now it will be interesting to note if there are others experiencing this same anomaly yesterday and today, and then suddenly within the next 2 days the same webmasters have huge ccbill sales flurries.

Geeze people, stop GUESSING at this and GET SOME REAL FACTS BY ASK YOUR CUSTOMERS!

Post your phone number on your website and invite customers to call you if there are any problems. You won't get crank calls. Instead, you'll get good calls from honest people who's cards are being declined. Get their names and email address and then call your processing company and ask them why this customer is being declined.

We have done this for a while now and the reasons range from IP / Geo Mismatch, or entire domains blocked for fraud. If you know your customes, you may know that Mr. Smith is a travelling salesman, or that Mr. Jones is a repeat customer, and that neither of them should be declined for these reasons.

Next, ask your processor to remove the blocks on these customers. Call your customer right back and invite him to try again, and voila! Not only have you gained a sale, but if you word it the right way, you (and your processor) were simply "looking out for your customer's best interest and protecting him from identity theft".

We learned this years ago as a part of our own internal fraud scrubbing (see http://2much.net/fraud-detection.php) and it works very well. While it's against CCBill's TOS to DEMAND that customers call only you, I am sure they appreciate it if you go out of your way to assist with customer service and do some of the leg work for them. Get the info from your customers, square it away with CCBill (or whoever), and watch your declines go down.


:)

I'm 1/600 this month with ccbill. So it's not CCBill.

Thanks for asking. Paul and I talked Monday and he's on the case, looking over some numbers with me. It's still kind of an anemic week but the percentages are holding steady even tho sales are down, like the % of form hits to approvals. Isn't August traditionally the slowest month? Or is that january, or February...


I love the idea of this on the one hand, but on the other I go "talk to PEOPLE? Ewwww!" I mean fuck, if I wanted to talk to fucking humans I wouldn't work on the Internet, I'd be a fucking waiter. :)

I know... I wasn't sure about the idea at first but we have our toll free number up everywhere. Customers really like to talk to a human and know that their concerns are being answered. Plus its a great chance to make another sale if you can show them any other sites you have.

You're 100% right, of course, but you don't need me to say that. LOL It's a great idea. I'm a huge believer in customer service. People are so surprised when you answer an email in ten minutes.

I told you go 3D! That market is alive. So may be you start hitting me for FREE 3D FULL HD content NOW!!!

1:1398 raw for the month to date. Not bad but not great either. I was ~ 1:800 up until around the 15th went it nose dived a bit (as is usual for me). Still better than my numbers last year.

plain dead..

idiots like robby keep saying that his sales are the same as 1999 and that the biz is better than ever.

maybe he didn't notice the amount of sponsors closing on a daily basis, the slow forums and all the broken webmasters.

show some respect, robby idiot.. you are full of shit.. so better close your homo mouth, before someone shows up your real curriculum..

heh.

You come here claiming to have gotten out of the adult biz, saying mainstream is doing great, spread all your "adult is dead" bullshit everywhere because YOU can't sell anything yet you are still posting on an adult forum. Who is the idiot?

Okay, one of the WORST days this month. Lousy, lousy, lousy day for sales all around, network-wide. Traffic so-so but still, shouldn't be THIS bad.

Going to bed now - to pray for higher ratios, to dream dreams of endless conversions...

I want to thank you all who contributed to this thread. It showed me that I still have a lot to learn and a long way to go.

As far as things being dead or dying, yes my traffic has gone down and yes so have my sales. But I've worked my traffic flows and channeled it a bit differently and sales are almost the same on my lower traffic as they where at higher flows. I sort of wish I was that creative back then.

So we ahave to work a little harder now. The good thing is we still work for ourselves and not some idiotic 9-5 job somewhere for some asshole boss.

Cheer up!

Maybe it's time CCBILL just revamps the ENTIRE system from the ground up. As an affiliate I stopped sending most my traffic to sites directly through CCBILL late 2008, out of nowhere my sales took a HUGE dump without any explanation. :helpme

Also, one of my sponsors used cascade billing between CCBILL and EPOCH. A couple years ago they had CCBILL first in the cascade, even then 60% of the sales were EPOCH. They reversed it and now over 90% of the sales are Epoch!

I don't suspect foul play in the least bit, but I do think there is an issue somewhere in the system. With the amount of people noticing these issues it's hard to deny it. :Oh crap

UPDATE:

Yesterday and today have felt like slowly, slowly, slowly slipping off a cliff.
Therefore: bye-bye CCBill for the foreseeable future, hello Epoch.

Same; last two day horrible.

Going Zambio/Verotel for awhile.

Don't see many of these threads about Epoch, is that because CCbill has way more clients then Epoch?

Last year : 1:941
Jan-April : 1:1423
May : 1:9121
June/July : 1:33,998

And thats not just a scrap of traffic, I send a good flow of traffic and conversions have been pretty stable until late.

I ****KNOW**** there is something wrong.

Honestly, the maddening thing is you see these numbers, you work your ass off, increase traffic & productivity, and still they go down, down, down. And JUST when you think things may be leveling off/returning to "normal", here we go again.

GRRR!

you sure whine a lot