GoFuckYourself.com - Adult Webmaster Forum - CSS: good or bad? I think it's shit

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- - CSS: good or bad? I think it's shit (https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=981626)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgtarheels (Post 17404120)

You're such a moron.

tables are making me money, and you? :upsidedow

Quote:

Originally Posted by sortie (Post 17403634)

Do you have a google link that explains this concept?

Load times are taken into account on crawls so larger filesize means a smaller score by google.

This is only a recent development.

I also don't get the 'tools' argument. Markup should be seperated by presentation, there's no debate.

If the argument was say Python vs Ruby vs PHP for web development the 'tools' argument holds strength.

Once again the industry forgets what is the most important, and that is the consumer, who doesn't care either way how you built your site so long as it works.

Neither tables, css or a combo of the two will make the consumer cum any harder than if you didn't have them. They won't make him rebill any longer. They will not be the deciding factor on if he joins your site or not.

Build with whatever tools you need to build with to get the job done. Validate it, make sure it's cross browser friendly, and don't get your panties in a bunch over which tool is better. You should be worrying about how increase your sales and rebills. If you feel css only can provide better SEO, go for it. I see many top listings built with tables inside of tables inside of tables. Some of the biggest money making sites online are built with tables. So who's right? Doesn't matter. You're selling PORN, not an invisible code that only "webmasters" argue over. "Pornographers" know better.

This is such a nerdy conversation that is as useful as arguing what color makes the best background color. Telling someone else they are retarded or lazy for using another tool shows just how out of touch with the adult industry some of you are.

What's "best" is up to you. How can you get your product to the market place the quickest? What method will allow the most people to view it? Will learning a new method actually bring in more money? Only you can answer that.

I use a combination of both and have not made the full jump to css because of the cross browser quirks that end up being a huge time waster for me to trouble shoot. If someone can get that worked out, css is my choice. But in the meantime, I have to work with what gets the job done the quickest and is the most stable across browsers.

But that is just my 2 cents after 14 years in the industry.

I would also like to point out that NO ONE in this thread has a site (or sites) larger than Bang Bros. They use a mix of tables and css.

You can close this thread now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy (Post 17404343)

I would also like to point out that NO ONE in this thread has a site (or sites) larger than Bang Bros. They use a mix of tables and css.

You can close this thread now.

Even if I don't agree your argument is sound. :winkwink:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafia_man (Post 17404362)

Even if I don't agree your argument is sound. :winkwink:

By reading your posts you clearly sound like a programmer or at least someone who has some advanced knowledge. You come at this from a different point of view, and from where you are sitting, it probably makes more sense AND you are more productive to do it your way. Everyone just needs to do it however they do it best.

14 years of running pay sites and here are things members have NEVER said to me:

1) "Let me know when your site is built with CSS only, then I'll join."

2) "I would have cum so hard jerking to that video of "Jenny" but your tables got in the way."

3) "I was going to rebill but I don't like how you're using CSS for text and tables for holding shit together."

4) Your videos are great but since they are not all of them in HD, I have to cancel.

Things members have said:

1) "My password doesn't work. HELP!"

2) "You need to shoot more of Jenny."

3) "Your site won't take my credit card."

4) "Are you looking for male porn stars?"

5) "Can I have Jenny's email?"

6) "You need more videos."

7) Without telling me who they are: "I can't get into your site. This sucks. Fix it."

8) And this is an actual email I recently got: "YOU ARE THE STUPID AMREICAN WHITING ON THE WORLD YOUR PCS IS SHIT,MUCH BROWN COLOR AND MUCH MISS ON YOUR PHOTO GET AND FUCK YOUR MOTHER AND LEARN YOU MORE WHO YOU CAN MADE PERFECT PHOTO,SUCK,SUCKMINE YOUR SHIT."

:thumbsup

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy (Post 17404394)

You're 100% right. I'm a Comp Sci grad and so a lot of the comments on this thread make me bork.

However what's right from my programmer perspective isn't necessarily correct for this industry.

Because:

* Re-designs are rare in this industry so maintenance of tables isn't considered.
* Tables work on the majority if not all of the target browsers.
* Bandwidth is cheap and fast on both the consumer and business side thus the speed advantage of css isn't considered.
* Javascript is seldom used on porn sites so advantages of using css selectors etc. aren't considered.
* CSS has quirks in browsers such as IE6 and IE7 that you don't have to deal with when using tables.

You get the job done and you get the product/service launched; if it works don't break it....but if you want to consider the future or you need flexibility then you should use CSS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy (Post 17404394)

You're argument isn't totally sound. You're stating people should do things the wrong way if they can't do it the right way. It's not really a means to an end.

You're debate about "the customer doesn't care if it's css or tables" is also a major fluke. Customers don't care if the site is written in PHP, ASP, CF either. That doesn't mean people should just go making all their sites in total static html. 1,000's of static pages with no scripting. Since the customer is only going to see the rendered html page anyway.

There is a right way to write html, for those who have taken the time to learn it. Then there is the "easy out" archaic way of just using tables inside tables inside tables for those who haven't learned the proper way.

Both could theoretically create the same end result, the same layout, the same user experience. However, that is not justification to do things the wrong way.

A lot of people here seem to think the tables vs css debate is an actual debate. Well, it isn't. Tables are designed for tabular data, divs+css are designed for web structure and layout. It's not like we were thrown upon the earth with this shit already around. When html was constructed, these tags were specifically designed for certain things. An <img> tag is designed for an <img>, a <li> tag is a list, etc etc. Go pick up an html book, or take a class on html. It doesn't make a difference the majority of original webmasters used tables for their layout and structure. They did so because it was easier for them. There was no value or attribute differentiation to learn. There was literally no learning curve at all.

You guys want to continue to do things the wrong way, and use certain html tags in a way they were not intended for. That's fine. Just don't expect to be able to put down what you do on a resume or in any list of skill sets. I'd also note that as each year passes, you will exponentially be further and further being the rest of the world in web development. As we move forward, every single year draws a bigger pull for more stricter standards. The longer you keep your head in the sand, the worse it will be if you ever decide to move away from the archaic way of writing html markup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafia_man (Post 17404314)

Load time is a broad area with more factors.

- response time (you request, wait for response)

- download time. The time to actually receive all data after getting a response

- Rendering time. How long does your browser take to execute the data and build a page.

These things have very little to do with tables or css. A all CSS page is not so small
that it's delivery time is significant versus tables, because of high speed internet.

I'm not aware that browsers need more time to render tables over CSS.

Further, it is only a dream that google will place a "clean" design higher in the results.
Google is looking for content and relative data because that's what made them
the king. Pushing more relevant sites down the search results because they use tables
would be counter to google's ultimate goal(more relevancy, more content).

Plain and simple : CSS versus tables is not an argument that any google employee
would even consider. Google doesn't want to get into "regulating" design, they are doing
exactly the opposite....trying to decipher any and every design.

Example : Building a 100% flash site in the old days would be an SEO problem but
google has joined up with Adobe and can now break a flash object down completely
and grab all the information for search results.

SEO is a real thing but it is also full of speculation and plain false hoods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by munki (Post 17403585)

I'm coming from this school of thought. CSS is a tool... one of many that a webmaster/developer should have in his arsenal... I will never get involved in the the tables vs CSS debate... simply because neither side is a well rounded argument. One is not better then the other by the very nature of what they accomplish.

They are tools... Learn how to use the right one for the right situation. You don't use a hammer drive in your Phillips head screws do you? At one point people used handsaws, and now people use power saws. You wouldn't try to hand sand something if you had a power sander next to you would you? Learn your tools, and use the correct ones.

I've been dealing with CSS layouts for close to 13 years now... before it was a fad. I also still use tables, as well as many aspects of html/php/css/asp that many fail to ever learn properly. Because something is popular vernacular doesn't mean you should hop on the fanboy bandwagon without knowing your tools through and through.

Not to burst your bubble, but CSS itself is only 13 years old and the first uses of it were very elementary... ie just limited font stuff etc.. not to mention IE and other browsers had very limited support for it the first 3-4 years..

... but the rest of your post is pretty spot on. I too started messing with CSS when I helped design clan sites for a dumb browser game back in 2001 or so :1orglaugh

Quote:

Originally Posted by potter (Post 17404512)

You guys want to continue to do things the wrong way, and use certain html tags in a way they were not intended for. That's fine. Just don't expect to be able to put down what you do on a resume or in any list of skill sets.

There is no wrong way to make money. If a page validates, it's good enough for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Ops (Post 17404889)

There is no wrong way to make money. If a page validates, it's good enough for me.

There is a wrong way to write html markup though. :2 cents:

I could write an entire website using <li> tags, and get it to look right in every browser, and get it to validate on w3c (code and css). However it wouldn't be the proper implementation of <li> tags.

Each HTML tag has a certain purpose. <table> tags were not designed for layout and structure.

/thread

I'll validate my point.

Improper Use of Markup:
I will display the improper use of HTML markup, by creating two static html pages. Using specific tags improperly. Just as people do with tables, by developing structure and layout with tags which were not designed to.

Example 1: http://goddam.net/improperuseofmarkup.html

Two column page, with main container and columns structured in <li> (list) tags. Title/Headers using <p> (paragraph) tags, and the content areas in <span> (span> tags.

Code:

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">

<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">

<head>



<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" />



<title>omgwtfbbq</title>



<style type="text/css" media="all">

body{

        text-align: center;

        margin: 0;

}

ul.wrap{

        display: block;

        text-align: center;

        width: 702px;

        margin: 0 auto;

        padding: 0;

        list-style: none;

        border: 1px solid #000;

}

ul.wrap li.left{

        float: left;

        width: 200px;

        margin: 0;

        padding: 0;

}

ul.wrap li.right{

        float: left;

        width: 500px;

        margin: 0;

        padding: 0;

}

p.title{

        display: block;

        padding: 2px 5px;

        margin: 0;

        background: #efefef;

}

span.block{

        display: block;

        padding: 5px;

}

.clear{

        clear: both;

}

</style>



</head>



<body>



<ul class="wrap">

        <li class="left">

            <p class="title">Title of Block</p>

        <span class="block">This is the block for content and crap</span>

        <p class="title">Second Block</p>

        <span class="block">This is the block for content and crap</span>

        <p class="title">Third Block</p>

        <span class="block">This is the block for content and crap</span>

        <br class="clear" />

    </li>

    <li class="right">

            <p class="title">Another Block</p>

        <span class="block">This is the block for content and crap</span>

        <p class="title">And Another Block</p>

        <span class="block">This is the block for content and crap</span>

        <p class="title">One Last Block</p>

        <span class="block">This is the block for content and crap</span>

        <br class="clear" />

    </li>

    <li class="clear"></li>

</ul>



</body>



</html>

Markup Validates: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...alidator%2F1.1

CSS Validates: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/v...n g=1&lang=en

Example 2: http://goddam.net/improperuseofmarkup2.html

An entire layout and content, structured with <li> (list) tags.

Code:

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">

<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">

<head>



<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" />



<title>omgwtfbbq v2</title>



<style type="text/css" media="all">

body{

        text-align: center;

        margin: 0;

}

ul.wrap{

        display: block;

        text-align: center;

        width: 702px;

        margin: 0 auto;

        padding: 0;

        list-style: none;

        border: 1px solid #000;

}

ul.wrap li.left{

        float: left;

        width: 200px;

        margin: 0;

        padding: 0;

}

ul.wrap li.right{

        float: left;

        width: 500px;

        margin: 0;

        padding: 0;

}

ul.blocks{

        display: block;

        margin: 0;

        padding: 0;

        list-style: none;

}

li.title{

        display: block;

        padding: 2px 5px;

        margin: 0;

        background: #999;

}

li.block{

        display: block;

        padding: 5px;

        margin: 0;

}

.clear{

        clear: both;

}

</style>



</head>



<body>



<ul class="wrap">

        <li class="left">

            <ul class="blocks">

                <li class="title">Title 1</li>

            <li class="block">Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.</li>

            <li class="title">Title 1</li>

            <li class="block">Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.</li>

            <li class="block">Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.</li>

            <li class="block">Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.</li>

            <li class="title">Title 1</li>

            <li class="block">Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.</li>

        </ul>

    </li>

    <li class="right">

            <ul class="blocks">

                <li class="title">Title 1</li>

            <li class="block">Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.</li>

            <li class="block">Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.</li>

            <li class="title">Title 1</li>

            <li class="block">Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.</li>

            <li class="title">Title 1</li>

            <li class="block">Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.</li>

            <li class="block">Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.</li>

            <li class="block">Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.</li>

        </ul>

    </li>

    <li class="clear"></li>

</ul>



</body>



</html>

Valid Markup: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...alidator%2F1.1

Valid CSS: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/v... ng=1&lang=en

Trying to argue using <table> tags for layout and structure, would be like trying to argue using <li> tags for layout and structure. Sure, it can be done - and it'll validate. But that doesn't make it right. You'd still be using html markup incorrectly. I could do the same with span tags, ANY tag - doesn't matter. Point is though, it would still be using the tags in a way they weren't intended for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by potter (Post 17405107)

Yeah, but rappers don't sing correctly either but who is selling the most songs?

A record player should not be used to "scratch" records. :1orglaugh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Ops (Post 17404889)

There is no wrong way to make money. If a page validates, it's good enough for me.

There's no wrong way to make money?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielS (Post 17401708)

Building sites for almost 10 years using editors like dreamweaver, and now I'm editing a site full of <div> tags and it looks like shit when I open it in dreamweaver.

What the hell does anything Dreamweaver shits out have to do with standards? I was expecting a good table rant, and this is the fucking opener? Boo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by potter (Post 17404919)

I won't argue that.

But there is also a proper way to speak English and you see how that turned out. :upsidedow

Seriously, for the non programmer, non developer, as long as it works isn't that enough? Not everyone "gets it" just the same as you probably can't shoot amazing porno, but you can still sell the heck out of porn.

I agree, for end user it doesn't matter tables vs CSS, if the page loads correctly and in reasonable time.

BUT.... I agree there are several factors that you should consider:

what browser do your customers use most often?
does it matter for customers how page loads?
does design really require usage of tables?
do you plan to change your templates often?
are there any technical limitations to your server?

From my experiences, these days I go 99% for tableless CSS design. And I very rarely come across a CSS layout problem that can't be solved. Besides, if you write good CSS code, the code degrades to clean plain HTML so even a half-loaded page is readable (what's can't be said about tables).

As one web designer said "tables are for eating" :) Or for tabular data. Well, porn never cared about standards and never will. No one is forcing table nor CSS layouts on you. But I think advantages of CSS layouts prevail.

When someone switches from tables to CSS it's a disaster. It took me some time, but it's was worth it. Now being given task to fix table layouts with broken TR and TD tags and fixing it is REALLY horrifying.