because all who can afford to leave the wonderful world healthcare and come here for treatment. :thumbsup

Your reply is irrational, unreasonable, merely emotional and disingenuous. I made no comparison between people and used cars. I made a comparison between a so-called "heath care" program and a warranty program; which comparison IS reasonable, rational and quite to the point. I have not suggested that people be denied health care; I have however suggested that it is unreasonable to require insurance companies to pay for pre-existing condtions upon issuing of the policy.

That's just the same as telling an insurance company that it must give you a policy and pay for the damage that a tornado did to your house THE DAY BEFORE the policy was issued!

Why is it that you cannot see it?

Were you an insurance company, would YOU pay such claims?

Just sayin'.

Sally.

You can thank this guy...
http://richardnixonfacts.com/images/richard-nixon0.jpg

Of course you were comparing people with used cars. You can't really be that stupid. healthcare=people warranty program=cars... I guess those who were born will illnesses or got cancer or whatever just got the shitty end of the stick and should just die off because its not good business to take care of these people? You must live in a very sad robot like world where only logic exists and feeling are something strange and foreign to you. Will you tell your mother one day that its not logical or profitable to keep her alive any longer and put her out of her misery? She is a broken down old car that no one would give a warranty to.

Why are insurance companies between YOU and YOUR HEALTH?

Why should they PROFIT from being between YOU and YOUR HEALTH CARE?

Why would you allow a 3rd party, to decide what care you should be allowed?

This is how it is RIGHT NOW.

Wake the fuck up!

Yay awesome and something already in the bill has already gone down! Incandescent light-bulbs are illegal now! Yay thank you nanny state headed by Obama (ATM) for making incandescent light-bulbs illegal... so glad you're here to watch over our every move and make sure we don't have access to those evil things... I think we should just give ALL our money to the government so they can show us how to spend it better. I mean, they already do such an awesome fucking job budgeting our money!

Edit: Oh wait that wasn't one of the unrelated things tacked onto the Obamacare bill, that's just another one of the retarded fucking freedom destroying moves by our gov...

Here is what Nixon (a Republican) proposed, many years ago...

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stor...-proposal.aspx

Does it look familiar?

After ObamaCare was passed Wall Street reacted with increases in value of Health Insurance stocks. The winners, insurance companies. That said it is better than nothing in that it prevents those same companies from dropping people just because they get sick!

Exactly, but too much money and power involved for them to do the right thing...:disgust

Indeed they are not angels. But do you really believe govt will not do the same? :1orglaugh

You'll see that they also deny the service when the patient is too old, too sick, etc.

All you actually get with this - is increased cost and lower quality, because you'll have to pay all the bureaucrats that are additionally placed in control over this in the same time messing with the work of those who actually do the job.

One more note: I live in a country with first world medical care and an office visit costs $7. The difference, no medical malpractice insurance and little liability. If you want health insurance here it is a fraction of US rates.

That's the way it was here in this country when I was growing up.

I'm pretty close to a long-time doctor, and he seems to think this new plan will almost eliminate good doctors -- as there'll be no more capitalistic incentive for it. Handing over something so important to the government is a bad move. Since when did government make anything more efficient? It'll just open new avenues for politicians to run corrupt programs and skim taxpayer dollars.

Also, no one is entitled to health care from the government. I have health insurance, and while I don't use it often, at least I know I won't be slapped with a $50,000 bill if something bad happens to me. But I pay for my own, and don't expect any help from the government.

Maybe he can explain why my group rates automatically increase as a result of this, even though they are not allowed to tell us that.

If this new plan is so great for the insurance companies, and it is such a give-away, then why are the insurance companies spending hundreds of millions of dollars to repeal it?

Get rid of the mandate and it's all good.

That's an easy one Vinnie.

In pro wrestling we call it the "swerve". It's an old con trick. They are manipulating the public.

What's the best way to get support behind it? Make it appear to SCREW the insurance companies.

But the reality is...they are now going to get hundreds of millions of new accounts. And they are going to make out like bandits.

I think that anybody who looks at it without politics involved can see a few truths:

The "health care bill" did NOT address the cost of HEALTH CARE. We still are going to pay more than any other country on Earth for medical procedures and prescription medication. Not one thing was done to even QUESTION that.

Insurance companies are going to make a shit ton of money off of this. There is no way around that fact. We are being forced to buy insurance.

IF the government was going to "take over" health care (which they aren't...they are just forcing everyone to buy insurance), then they should simply have the balls to do it like other countries do and have health care paid for by our tax dollars. The so-called "single pay" thing. (stupid name for it)

But the problem with "single payer" is that it STILL didnt' stop medical costs and prescription drug prices in our country from being higher than any other place in the freakin' world. That is why other countries can do it and we can't. The govt. is holding hands with insurance companies and the medical industry to keep our prices high...and they ALL get paid off to do it. Both Republicans and Democrats. That's why the first thing that was done was a backroom deal with pharmaceutical and insurance companies right off the bat to ENSURE that "single pay" wouldn't happen because they don't want the big gravy train to end.

This has nothing to do with "liberal" or "conservative" Those are just words to keep the masses arguing over the wrong thing..."Misdirection" it's called in magic a "Swerve" in con games and pro wrestling... meanwhile politicians (dems and republicans), pharmaceutical companies, and insurance companies rake in the money.

This plan may give the insurance companies new customers, but it still restricts their behavior in ways they are not happy with. The insurance companies do not want ANY regulations, and therefore they are prepared to spend BILLION$ to maintain as much of the status quo as they can. It is not misdirection.

It is 100% misdirection VinMan.

Think about it...How many times have we read or been told on the news that insurance companies are spending so much money running ads against it?

Guess what? I've never seen even ONE ad from an insurance company against the Health Care Bill. Not one.

And on all the news talk shows on CNN...I've see the Health Care bill debated by politicians. But not ONE Insurance Company guy. Not one.

This is total misdirection bro. And even though you may not want to think you can be fooled just because you're an intelligent person...guess what? You are being conned and led by the nose.

If I'm wrong...then WHY didn't the full Democratic White House, Senate, and House simply go with single pay?

Because they CAN'T. All of them are under the thumb of insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies.

This is about business. Don't ever think that any politician gives a damn about any of us. It's about money.

You're ignoring the fact that the insurance companies are now going to have hundreds of millions of new paying customers. Oh, you're 18 years old...healthy as a horse and over the next 40 years you didn't end up going to the doctor but a couple of times when you had the flu?
Well that describes how the vast majority of guys lives play out.

But now...you are gonna pay the insurance company. Oh yeah. And you're STILL gonna end up getting taxed to the ground on top of that.

It's a numbers and money game. Period.

And I wonder how this whole thing is gonna play out when the forced mandate (so anti-American) comes into play...and unemployment is running high with people struggling just to keep their homes.

The govt. needs to step the fuck up and stop the medical industry from ripping us off and shut the insurance companies down and go "single pay" if they really want to do something.

I'm in Canada and I am totally happy with our health care system. Has worked great for me and for my family members that have had life-threatening ailments.

But the recent estimate is that in Ontario, over 40 cents of every tax dollar goes directly to healthcare in our province. (as well as most other provinces)

Something to think about. Universal health care is great, but it is not cheap.

Everyone is paying for it. Just like everyone pays for stealth bombers.

I'm thinking...maybe, just maybe we could pull our troops out of Japan and Germany (the war has been over for 65 years)

Maybe pull out of Korea (war has been over for over 50 years)

Pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

And pull troops out of the other 80 + countries that we are occupying.

My guess is we could then pay for everybody to go to the doctor AND cut our taxes too.

I agree with you that it is all about money and corruption, but the insurance lobby HAS been throwing money to push back and dilute this bill. They bused people in for the "angry town hall meetings" right off the bat!

I agree that both sides of the aisle suck it, but Obama's plan is still better than NO PLAN, which is what the other side has offered, and continues to offer.

Also your statement that 18 year olds will now have to pay for insurance is not true. Under the new system kids are covered under their parent's policy until they are 26.

As far as having to pay for insurance not being constitutional - that's just crap. If you drive you need insurance - is that unconstitutional too?

The righties bitch that the poor do not pay for insurance, and they are why rates are so high. Now that mandatory insurance is on the table, the righties are complaining that it is not constitutional.

It is so easy to complain, but it is much harder to actually accomplish something, or make changes.

If the Republicans get back in, what will change? What is the GOP's big plan, that is so great that Obama needs to be voted out?

1. Sending people to the town meetings was classic misdirection. I guess it takes one to see one because I can see it plain as day that they are doing nothing more than a pro wrestling style con.

2. So now parents are FORCED to pay insurance for their ADULT kids? Wow.

3. The insurance to drive is yet another case of the govt. holding hands with insurance companies...but put that aside for a second. You hit the nail on the head: IF you drive you have to buy insurance. And you can CHOOSE how much you want. Got a new car? Full coverage. Got an old clunker? State minimum.
Or maybe you don't have a car? You're one of millions of people who live in NYC and you take the subway. You don't even WANT a car in that city.

You don't have to drive. But this new law requires every breathing human being to BUY insurance.

Dude...trust me...no politicians are on your "side". It's nothing but money and greed.

Obama's kryptonite cuts to the very heart of the administration's failings at a presidential economic town hall:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tu...-the-depressed

Again, I agree, cynically, that most politicians are corrupt, but again, I disagree with you on some of this. I would imagine most parents would be happy to have their kids covered until they are 26, and as far as the analogy that people CHOOSE whether or not to drive or not... well, as long as you CHOOSE to stay alive, then you are a liability. If you do not cover yourself, then you are burdening the system. If I have a heart attack this afternoon, and I do not have insurance, and the hospital charges me $100K in medical expenses, and I don't pay the bill, then who does?

I think the whole reliance on insurance companies is bullshit, but if that's the only way that healthcare works at the moment, then how do you defend the idea that some people need to pay, and others don't?

As the economy continues to falter, and insurance rates continue to rise, it will only be a matter of time before half the country pays into the system, to cover the other half!

On the flipside, if EVERYONE has to pay into the system, rates SHOULD at least stabilize, and if they don't, then EVERYONE is effected, and the system will be forced to morph into something EVERYONE can be happier with.

Also, as more people are now renting, who gives a shit if you don't pay your hospital or medical bills? What does it matter? It is obviously cheaper to NOT have to pay, so without a mandate, what is the incentive?

I am still one of those that pays cash for Dr's visits and even small surgeries. I have found out one thing. Most Drs hate insurance companies as much as we do and when you mention that you are a self pay patient, most will give a hefty discount. Case in point when I shattered my foot and had to have surgery, I negotiated with the Dr and the surgery center. Everything, including 3 months of follow up care with the Podiatrist, cost me $2100. That was less than the surgical suite alone would have cost had I have turned it in on insurance.

Dude...nothing has EVER stopped parents from keeping their grown kids on insurance.

I never had insurance as a child for instance. Going to the doctor didn't cost that much.

But when I turned 18 and went to college...my grandparents sent me to their insurance company and got me a policy. It wasn't that big a deal. It was in MY name. And they paid the bill.

Nothing has EVER stopped a parent from doing that EVER. But now...they will be FORCED to. Even if they can't afford it.

It's called "Freedom Of Choice"

And YOU are the one who brought up the car insurance analogy. Not me.

And I am 100% correct on that one. If I decide tomorrow to sell my cars and take a bus or taxi wherever I go, I won't pay another penny for car insurance.

But forcing people to buy insurance gives nobody any choice at all. That's what I'm saying is unconstitutional and just plain out Anti-American. And that is all about making insurance companies a shitload of more money.

Yep, when I had my car wreck in 2002 and my neck was broken I had almost half a million dollars in hospital bills. When they found out I had no insurance though...they told me the REAL cost was only around $20,000.00

They have deals set up with insurance companies to milk us big time on premiums. And the govt. is paid off to keep the gravy train rolling.

Will you agree Robbie that when a person who has paid insurance for 10 years has a $50,000 medical emergency that his insurance company denies based on him filling out his form wrong 10 years ago, that something is wrong?
I mean where is the line?

Absolutely wrong of them. And the govt. definitely should have addressed that.

But FIRST they should address WHY any medical procedure that costs 50 grand in the U.S. only costs 10 grand in every other country in the world. Then you wouldn't need insurance anyway. You could just pay it yourself. Even if you had to do payment plans (like I did with my car wreck in 02)

EDIT: You see how they've conditioned us? We just accept the high prices and then think we are helpless without insurance.

I think you have to worry about the tail wagging the dog. If it was Mom and Pop paying for it, it would NOT cost so much money because such increases would simply lead to nobody ever using it due to lack of money to pay for it. In other words, high prices exist because of insurance. Why else do I think so? Because advocates for repeal cite the "fact" that premiums are based on the "rising cost of health care". Chicken and egg.

lots of words traded here. But we all know the truth facing us...health care reform will not change jack shit.
It will actually make things worse when the people who are mandated to pay into the gouging insurers choose instead to pay penalties to the government. They will stay uninsured, will not get health care, but will pay money to the government for choosing not to buy unaffordable coverage.
If single payer is not going to happen, i would rather go with republican plan to just do nothing at all. Because democrats have no concern about the costs of the things they mandate.

I can tell you this much...after visiting Tijuana a couple of weeks ago. I can now see why it is such a HUGE medical tourism spot.

The place was wall to wall surgeons, doctors, and pharmacies. The prices were incredible. Americans are swarming there to get things done.

I definitely would make that my destination for any kind of surgery that wasn't an emergency and gave me time to get there.

And the pharmacies? You should see the prices! Same exact stuff made by the same exact companies. Plus you can buy Cialis, Viagra, and testosterone and steroids right over the counter. Nice having a little freedom and not getting price gouged.

Sure, but government isn't the answer. In the words of the moron BFT3K, only the sheeple believe the government is the answer against the big bad insurance companies.:1orglaugh

Popcorn is ready ....
Just waiting for the implosion ...

Well so much for intelligent discussion. Now the name calling high school bullshit has started. Thanks "The Demon". Too bad you never learned to intelligently debate people.

Too bad you never learned to follow a discussion or enhance those poor reading comprehension skills, because if you had, you would see that there is no name calling, I'm just repeating what someone else said. And the thing about arguing with morons is, it's impossible to "intellectually" debate them. Good show though Robbie, thanks.

Edit: Here Robbie, let me help you out so you don't hurt yourself. I imagine this is the last we'll hear from you in this thread.

As long as SOME people have insurance and SOME people do not, this argument will continue. If you want to change the status quo, there are two quick answers...

1) EVERYONE has insurance.

2) NOBODY has insurance.

Personally I like the second option. That would make it so that the prices for medicine and medical procedures would have to drop. It would not be realistic for regular, uninsured people, to pay the insane rates that are currently in place, if they were not insured.