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Ethersync 10-22-2010 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorB (Post 17632953)
You post still doesn't adress how China should adress it's overpopulation problem. While the EARTH may not have too many people CHINA and India certainly do.
China has a bigger problem. Too many men and not enough women for them all. This is a direct result of these forced abortions and child limits.

u-Bob 10-22-2010 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorB (Post 17633031)
last time I checked China doesn't have a free market ANYTHING.
exactly, that's the problem. Same problem with the US and EU, no free market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorB (Post 17633031)
The problem with people like you is that you recognized problem but you have pie in the sky answers that end up solving nothing. If you think the current system the way the world works is going to change anytime soon you will be disappointed. I prefer to come up with answers that are actually viable.
The problem with people like you is that you put your trust in a system that has failed to deliver time and time again. A system (the state) that constantly claims to aim to improve things but in reality causes nothing but problems. A system that is unethical to boot and has become more and more corrupt over time. A system that only benefits a small minority and makes things worse for the majority of us. A system that puts on many faces. And every face claims to be better than the other ones, but in the end they're all the same. To quote Ludwig von Mises; There's the state and there's the free-market. There is no third option.

What I'm proposing isn't an instant-fix for all of our problems. What I'm proposing is the beginning. I'm proposing to end a corrupt and unethical system that constantly causes more problems, so we can finally deal with the problems that already exist.

Ask yourself this: If the state is unable to solve our problems, then why do we need the state?

Ethersync 10-22-2010 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rochard (Post 17632164)
There is plenty of space if we spread everyone out. But no one in Japan wants to move to Africa. And people in Australia don't want to cough up their land for anyone.

You saying population in Europe is decreasing, but that's not true. People in Europe are living longer. World population has been in a steady rise since the 1400s, and and over half of the current world population is currently in Asia.
Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Germany, Italy, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Montenegro, Poland, Romania, and Slovenia are all European countries experiencing population declines. France and the UK would also if not for the huge immigrant populations. You can also add Russia and Japan to the list of "dying" countries.

Ayla_SquareTurtle 10-22-2010 04:00 PM
Women, in China and elsewhere in the world, often do not have any say in whether or not they get pregnant. It's easy for people not living in that kind of environment to say, "Well, just don't get pregnant" but that is fantasy. Overpopulation is a real problem, but beating women and forcing them to abort fetuses is FAR from the answer.

moeloubani 10-22-2010 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethersync (Post 17633058)
Seriously?

It's a damn shame you weren't one of these forced abortions. Please do humanity a favor and abort yourself so we can save the food, k?
I say it time and time again: when someone loses an argument or they've got nothing to counter a good argument they will ALWAYS resort to attacking the person and putting the argument aside.

100% of the time. It's the most childish thing and in any real debate you'd be laughed at and ridiculed for doing it. I hope you feel like a champ while acting like a child!

Ethersync 10-22-2010 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17633164)
I say it time and time again: when someone loses an argument or they've got nothing to counter a good argument they will ALWAYS resort to attacking the person and putting the argument aside.

100% of the time. It's the most childish thing and in any real debate you'd be laughed at and ridiculed for doing it. I hope you feel like a champ while acting like a child!
My response is not the same as saying, "go fuck yourself asshole." You say there is not enough food on the planet. You say there are too many people. I say, if you really feel that way do something about it. Words to action. That sort of thing...

I am curious though -- You support governments killing 8 month old unborn babies against the will of the mother. Do you have kids? Do you plan to?

moeloubani 10-22-2010 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by u-Bob (Post 17632828)
Not my responsibility. I didn't cause the famine in whatever country there is famine. I can chose to help (as I have done so in the past), but forcing me to help or deciding it's better that some people don't have babies or anything like that is simply an act of aggression.


Thousands of years of history are filled with people who claimed to know what was best for the people... From faro's to emperors to high chancellors to presidents...


Why is that?



correct. see above.



You're assuming that just because you're being born, you have the right to a piece of the pie. So if I want a Ferrari, they should give me one, right?

As an individual you have the right to use your own body as you see fit. That means you can use your body (your property) to acquire property. You provide services to people and get property in return (selling your time and labor), you can gather wood, fruit,... you can mine metals and minerals (unclaimed resources),....

Being born does not give you a right to a piece of the pie. Being born gives you the right to use your body. If you want a piece of the pie, you need to work for it. If you want a bigger piece of the pie, you can accomplish that by contributing to the community: by offering a product or service people are willing to pay for. It's called the free market.
Yes thousands of years, but if you knew anything about the history of science you would know that it's only recently that people have been making decisions based on observable and measurable facts. Notice how in the past 100 years or so we've advanced so much technologically. Why do you think that is? It's because of SCIENCE. So you can pretend like science is the same as religion but quite simply it is not. It is real.

You still haven't come up with any real plan and other than 'blah blah killing is bad' you haven't come up with any solution for when these children are born.

Should they jail the parents? Take the kids to foster care and now have to feed them, raise them and house them on the government dollar? How long do you think they could do that with a population of 1+billion people?

Be realistic here please, lets grow up and realize that sometimes grownups have to make hard decisions for the good of all the dummies.

moeloubani 10-22-2010 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethersync (Post 17633180)
My response is not the same as saying, "go fuck yourself asshole." You say there is not enough food on the planet. You say there are too many people. I say, if you really feel that way do something about it. Words to action. That sort of thing...

I am curious though -- You support governments killing 8 month old unborn babies against the will of the mother. Do you have kids? Do you plan to?
I don't have kids but I hope I do one day. And I don't say that lightly as if it's ok to kill babies - it isn't. But what are they supposed to do? What choice do they have? Let the baby live then they have to let every baby live. Put the mom and dad in jail and the baby lives AND they have to pay to raise the baby.

If they just let it slide then the place becomes overpopulated and there isn't food for anyone! So what can they do?

Every member of society has to follow a certain set of rules in order for things to work. They are rules you just HAVE to follow - and they have to be enforced - because without them society would fall into shambles. In China one of those laws is the one child thing.

I wouldn't have more than 1 child if I lived in China unless I had that money to pay because I would recognize that I have a duty to my country and to everyone else living there. I'm not a selfish prick that puts myself above others.

Ethersync 10-22-2010 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17633216)
I don't have kids but I hope I do one day. And I don't say that lightly as if it's ok to kill babies - it isn't. But what are they supposed to do? What choice do they have? Let the baby live then they have to let every baby live. Put the mom and dad in jail and the baby lives AND they have to pay to raise the baby.

If they just let it slide then the place becomes overpopulated and there isn't food for anyone! So what can they do?

Every member of society has to follow a certain set of rules in order for things to work. They are rules you just HAVE to follow - and they have to be enforced - because without them society would fall into shambles. In China one of those laws is the one child thing.

I wouldn't have more than 1 child if I lived in China unless I had that money to pay because I would recognize that I have a duty to my country and to everyone else living there. I'm not a selfish prick that puts myself above others.
You are the biggest hypocrite on the planet if you have kids yourself. If you believe this bullshit lead by example and sterilize yourself voluntarily.

RegUser 10-22-2010 05:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethersync (Post 17633233)
You are the biggest hypocrite on the planet if you have kids yourself. If you believe this bullshit lead by example and sterilize yourself voluntarily.
I dont think he is bullshitting. He said he will abide by the rule of the land where ever he lives. Is that wrong? Or Right?

Ethersync 10-22-2010 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RegUser (Post 17633267)
I dont think he is bullshitting. He said he will abide by the rule of the land where ever he lives. Is that wrong? Or Right?
The problem of world overpopulation is a myth. A myth he believes in. That is the bullshit I was referring to and if he does believe this he has no business having children. Period.

u-Bob 10-22-2010 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethersync (Post 17633276)
The problem of world overpopulation is a myth. A myth he believes in. That is the bullshit I was referring to and if he does believe this he has no business having children. Period.
good point.

It's called: practice what you preach. Funny how people who believe in overpopulation, still think THEY have the right to have children but others don't.

moeloubani 10-22-2010 05:46 PM
If I lived in China where the rules were that I could only have one child unless I paid a fee then I would only have one child unless I wanted to pay a fee. That's the law. A set of rules that citizens must abide by in order for society to function.

I live in Canada where there isn't that rule, so fortunately I don't have to worry about that. We have plenty of food and fresh water here in Canada.

I don't like the idea of it as much as you guys but what I'm saying is you can't blame them when they have no other choice.

IllTestYourGirls 10-22-2010 05:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by u-Bob (Post 17633320)
good point.

It's called: practice what you preach. Funny how people who believe in overpopulation, still think THEY have the right to have children but others don't.
It is progressive elitism at its finest. It goes beyond thinking they have the right and others dont. They go to the extreme where they think other peoples babies should be KILLED. :mad:

Hitler would be proud that his progressive ideas of eugenics has not died.

u-Bob 10-22-2010 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17633191)
Yes thousands of years, but if you knew anything about the history of science you would know that it's only recently that people have been making decisions based on observable and measurable facts. Notice how in the past 100 years or so we've advanced so much technologically. Why do you think that is? It's because of SCIENCE. So you can pretend like science is the same as religion but quite simply it is not. It is real.
It's not about whether or not science is like religion... It's about the fact that it's unethical to force your will or the will of a small elite (be it religious or scientific or aristocratic or financial or whatever) onto others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17633191)
You still haven't come up with any real plan and other than 'blah blah killing is bad' you haven't come up with any solution for when these children are born.
1. You simply don't know if population growth will cause the kind of problems you keep referring to. Not even those all knowing scientists (btw: a real scientist always questions what he thinks he already knows). Remember those predictions about the Mexian Flu/Swine Flu that turned out to be completely off? You know the reason scientists gave for their miscalculations? Their computer models didn't take into account that humans change their behavior when the situation changes.

2. Like I said: The free market doesn't guarantee that everybody will be happy and that there won't be any problems. The free market merely offers the best chance for everybody to become happy and overcome their problems.

3. The fact that you (or any group of people) perceive something as a threat, doesn't give you the right to act unethically and commit acts of aggression. If It did, than all a person who wanted to commit an act of aggression would have to do, is come up with a good excuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17633191)
Be realistic here please, lets grow up and realize that sometimes grownups have to make hard decisions for the good of all the dummies.
Finally, there we have it. The elitist view. The idea that people are stupid and need guidance, a shepherd, a great leader, a fürer, someone to watch over them, someone who knows better, a big brother,...

Ethersync 10-22-2010 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17633332)
If I lived in China where the rules were that I could only have one child unless I paid a fee then I would only have one child unless I wanted to pay a fee. That's the law. A set of rules that citizens must abide by in order for society to function.

I live in Canada where there isn't that rule, so fortunately I don't have to worry about that. We have plenty of food and fresh water here in Canada.

I don't like the idea of it as much as you guys but what I'm saying is you can't blame them when they have no other choice.
So, if the Chinese government passed a law that a lottery be held every year to randomly choose women to sterilize you would be cool with that too?

Now how about if the Canadian government did it? All because some bureaucrat decided there are too many people in Canada. I mean the law is the law... You would be cool with that? Even if it was your wife and it meant you could not have children?

Oh, and China's one child policy is a total failure and will not last more than a couple more years. 5 years max.

u-Bob 10-22-2010 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17633332)
you can't blame them when they have no other choice.
You always have a choice. Committing an act of aggression is never ok.

SallyRand 10-22-2010 06:02 PM
Primitive sub-human baby killers.

moeloubani 10-22-2010 06:07 PM
Just saying you have a choice doesn't mean there is a choice.

Yes people need someone to guide them, people are too dumb to put together a proper sentence for the most part let alone work together to run a society.

China's one child policy has lasted for 32 years so saying it won't last for 2 is just ignorant.

If someone in Canada did it then I would vote against it, and it still passed, I would leave Canada. It's that simple.

It's great that you think the scientists are wrong. After all, after years of schooling, endless models with mountains of data is just nothing compared to what you just 'feel'. Yayyyy!

u-Bob 10-22-2010 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17633366)
It's great that you think the scientists are wrong. After all, after years of schooling, endless models with mountains of data is just nothing compared to what you just 'feel'. Yayyyy!
Human beings are complex creatures. The ways we interact are even more complex. Do you really believe a bunch of scientists with a bunch of computers can predict how 6 billion people will interact, what new ideas they will come up with, how they will respond to unforeseen events,...?

Ethersync 10-22-2010 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17633366)
Just saying you have a choice doesn't mean there is a choice.

Yes people need someone to guide them, people are too dumb to put together a proper sentence for the most part let alone work together to run a society.

China's one child policy has lasted for 32 years so saying it won't last for 2 is just ignorant.

If someone in Canada did it then I would vote against it, and it still passed, I would leave Canada. It's that simple.

It's great that you think the scientists are wrong. After all, after years of schooling, endless models with mountains of data is just nothing compared to what you just 'feel'. Yayyyy!
You do get that centralized planning has never worked long term? It always ends bad. Always.

And as far as these "scientists" go that you keep referring to. Who? What exactly are you talking about? Overpopulation of the world or just China? Do you know how often centrally planned government programs, planned by scientists, have ended in horrific failure?

How old are you?

moeloubani 10-22-2010 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by u-Bob (Post 17633371)
Human beings are complex creatures. The ways we interact are even more complex. Do you really believe a bunch of scientists with a bunch of computers can predict how 6 billion people will interact, what new ideas they will come up with, how they will respond to unforeseen events,...?
Maybe not exactly but it's the best we have.

Ethersync 10-22-2010 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17633387)
Maybe not exactly but it's the best we have.
It's not. Far from.

u-Bob 10-22-2010 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17633387)
Maybe not exactly but it's the best we have.
It brought you the financial crisis, the BP oil spill, a couple of wars, rising food prices,...

moeloubani 10-22-2010 06:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by u-Bob (Post 17633414)
It brought you the financial crisis, the BP oil spill, a couple of wars, rising food prices,...
Yes as well as all the technology, medicine, civility, infrastructure, and all the other good things in life.

GatorB 10-22-2010 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethersync (Post 17633066)
China has a bigger problem. Too many men and not enough women for them all. This is a direct result of these forced abortions and child limits.
No it's not. For centuries female babies have been killed after they were born. And it still goes on today and still would regardless of 1 child policy or not. For some reason all these idiots only want sons, but aren't smart enough to realize if everyone has boys there won't be any females for their sons to marry and have kids with.

Ethersync 10-22-2010 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by u-Bob (Post 17633414)
It brought you the financial crisis, the BP oil spill, a couple of wars, rising food prices,...
Exactly! And in China specifically there are many examples of how badly central planning fucked up the country. The Great Leap Forward is a perfect example of this. It ended in what is now referred to as, "Great Chinese Famine." 45 million people died in 4 years.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...s-2081630.html

Ethersync 10-22-2010 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorB (Post 17633446)
No it's not. For centuries female babies have been killed after they were born. And it still goes on today and still would regardless of 1 child policy or not. For some reason all these idiots only want sons, but aren't smart enough to realize if everyone has boys there won't be any females for their sons to marry and have kids with.
You just made a case for why their 1 child policy has caused an imbalance.

Quote:
24 million Chinese men face lonely future: report
(AFP) ? Jan 10, 2010
BEIJING ? More than 24 million Chinese men of marrying age could find themselves without spouses in 2020, state media reported Monday, citing a study that blamed sex-specific abortions as a major factor.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...Yo1L8qGckOzoKQ

Quote:
Rethinking China's one-child policy
Last Updated: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 | 3:42 PM ET Comments28Recommend38
By Anthony Germain CBC News

Believe it or not, despite having more than 1.3 billion people, China needs babies.

Thirty years after the one-child policy was introduced to control the population growth of what was then a backward and poor country, China ? particularly urban China ? is starting to see the unintended consequences of what seemed like a good idea at the time.

The problem is most acute in the big centres such as Shanghai where 20 per cent of the population is over the age of 60. That's almost double the national average.

The financial capital of the mainland also has the country's lowest birthrate and it is leading to a situation where the population is getting too old, too fast.

Policy debates in China aren't usually a very public matter, but behind the scenes at universities and institutes that advise the Communist Party there is a simmering debate about what to do.

"I believe it is time to relax the one-child policy because in the future we will have a serious challenge because of too-low fertility," says Zuo Xuejin, a population expert with the Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences.

"In the next five to 10 years there must be more substantial policy changes."
Quote:
The government faces both a geriatric and gender crisis within the next two decades that could challenge the stated goal of building a "harmonious society."

The one-child policy was introduced as a "temporary" measure and now, almost three decades later, its days appear to be numbered.
It's a long article. Learn something... http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/1...a-germain.html

Sausage 10-22-2010 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SallyRand (Post 17633358)
Primitive sub-human baby killers.
I constantly marvel at how Americans seem to think that Chinese are still running around in rice paddies with no electricity, and still using rickshaws to get around. Oh and their navy is a bunch of leaky boats, and their airforce is just a strip of fire crackers taped to a kite.

u-Bob 10-23-2010 04:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17633423)
Yes as well as all the technology, medicine, civility, infrastructure, and all the other good things in life.
Government planning brought you those things? Human creativity and cooperation did. Just imagine what we could have achieved without constant interference of the state.

u-Bob 10-23-2010 04:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17633387)
Maybe not exactly but it's the best we have.
They used to say the exact same thing about slavery.

moeloubani 10-23-2010 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by u-Bob (Post 17634155)
They used to say the exact same thing about slavery.
Yes because slavery = scientific data gathered by people who studied for years to get to where they were, studying previous data as well as talking to experts in the fields of growing food and sustainability.

Human cooperation? You mean government? Or do you mean schooling that helped people learn as they grew up (government) or do you mean the funding put out for tons of these programs (government) when you say human cooperation? Please tell me where a tribe that didn't have a proper government excelled past one with a proper government.

NONE.

Let me think without constant interference from the state people would be robbing people left and right, there would be no roads to get around, there would be no internet or phones.

And you guys are right, Chinese planning is so horrible, it's not like while the rest of the world was getting fucked they were still growing. Or like they're on their way to having the biggest economy in the world. Or like they got to host an Olympics in 2008 that was one of the nicest ever. No fuck that, China is such a shit hole because sometimes their people disagree with the government. What the fuck is that all about? There should be NO disagreements and everyone should be happy or something is wrong. RIGHT RIGHT?? Just like in the US where 100% of the people vote for 1 political party in order for it to win. Oh wait.....

Ethersync 10-23-2010 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17634849)
Yes because slavery = scientific data gathered by people who studied for years to get to where they were, studying previous data as well as talking to experts in the fields of growing food and sustainability.
So, pregnant women having to worry about being detained and their unborn children killed by lethal injection and left inside them = scientific data gathered by people who studied for years to get where they were, studying previous data as well as talking to experts in the fields of growing food and sustainability?

Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17634849)
Human cooperation? You mean government? Or do you mean schooling that helped people learn as they grew up (government) or do you mean the funding put out for tons of these programs (government) when you say human cooperation? Please tell me where a tribe that didn't have a proper government excelled past one with a proper government.
I do not consider a "proper" government one that has no respect for individual liberty and where the citizenry live in fear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17634849)
Let me think without constant interference from the state people would be robbing people left and right, there would be no roads to get around, there would be no internet or phones.
Did any of us say there is no role for government at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17634849)
And you guys are right, Chinese planning is so horrible, it's not like while the rest of the world was getting fucked they were still growing. Or like they're on their way to having the biggest economy in the world. Or like they got to host an Olympics in 2008 that was one of the nicest ever. No fuck that, China is such a shit hole because sometimes their people disagree with the government. What the fuck is that all about? There should be NO disagreements and everyone should be happy or something is wrong. RIGHT RIGHT?? Just like in the US where 100% of the people vote for 1 political party in order for it to win. Oh wait.....
You seem to think if China does one thing right they do everything right.

They did everything perfect to win their bid to host the Olympics in 2008 so of course their one child policy, forced abortions of unborn babies and forced sterilization of their citizens must also be right? It's one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.

Tuck your tail between your legs and walk away kid. Because this debate is over and you lost :2 cents:

u-Bob 10-23-2010 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17634849)
Human cooperation? You mean government? Or do you mean schooling that helped people learn as they grew up (government) or do you mean the funding put out for tons of these programs (government) when you say human cooperation?
First of all, government doesn't produce anything. Because it doesn't produce anything, it can't sell anything. because it can't sell anything, it has no income. Because it has no income, it has no money to spend. But wait, government does spend money... how does that work? Simple. The government takes out a loan and forces the population it exerts control over to pay back that loan (with interest).

Want to talk about schooling? Ask an American to find his own country on a blind map. Or ask English, Dutch, Belgian, French,... parents why they are camping outside of schools. Government planning...

Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17634849)
Let me think without constant interference from the state people would be robbing people left and right, there would be no roads to get around, there would be no internet or phones.
So you are saying, that the only reason YOU are not robbing people right now is because the state exists? If the state didn't exist, would you rob people? Personally, I'd never rob someone. Like i said, I don't commit murder and I don't steal. Those are things I'll never do simply because I believe in justice and liberty. So that's one human being that wouldn't be robbing other people. Would you rob other people? No? ok, now there's 2 people who wouldn't rob other people. What about all other human beings on this planet? Do you think they are all evil and would all rob each other? Like I said earlier in this thread, there are bad people. Some people will commit acts of aggression. But you have the right to defend yourself against them. You have the right to use violence to defend yourself. You have the right to form an organization to protect yourself and the others who are part of your organization. You have the right to buy protection from companies that offer protection services. etc But not all people are bad.

Do you believe all people are bad?
3 possibilities:
1. All people are good. obviously, that is not an answer you'd give, based on your previous comments.
2. Some people are good, some people are bad. Personally, I believe this is the case. Now if this is the case, than the last thing you'd want is a government. Because a government is an artificial position of power and if there are good people and bad people (people who prey on all others) than bad people will do whatever they can to use/abuse/gain control over that position of power.
3. All people are bad. If all people are bad than the people who make up the government are also bad so the chances that those bad people will use their power to do good are very slim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17634849)
There should be NO disagreements and everyone should be happy or something is wrong. RIGHT RIGHT?? Just like in the US where 100% of the people vote for 1 political party in order for it to win. Oh wait.....
As long as there are people there will be disagreements. We are all individuals, we are all unique, we all have our own ideas. So obviously there will be disagreements. But using force/violence/aggression to force your ideas of what is good onto others is never acceptable.

u-Bob 10-23-2010 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17634849)
Yes because slavery = scientific data gathered by people who studied for years to get to where they were, studying previous data as well as talking to experts in the fields of growing food and sustainability.
I'll say this one more time: The way you come up with your ideas, of what you think would be best for this planet, doesn't matter. Whether you form a scientific conclusion based on limited research or whether you cut open small birds and looks at their liver or whether you base your ideas on greed or on... It all doesn't matter. Nothing gives you the right to commit acts of aggression. Nothing gives you the right to force your will onto others.

u-Bob 10-23-2010 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethersync (Post 17634982)
They did everything perfect to win their bid to host the Olympics in 2008 so of course their one child policy, forced abortions of unborn babies and forced sterilization of their citizens must also be right? It's one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.
Let's not forget all the property violations... Thousands of homes that were destroyed to make room for those big stadiums.

moeloubani 10-23-2010 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethersync (Post 17634982)
So, pregnant women having to worry about being detained and their unborn children killed by lethal injection and left inside them = scientific data gathered by people who studied for years to get where they were, studying previous data as well as talking to experts in the fields of growing food and sustainability?



I do not consider a "proper" government one that has no respect for individual liberty and where the citizenry live in fear.



Did any of us say there is no role for government at all?



You seem to think if China does one thing right they do everything right.

They did everything perfect to win their bid to host the Olympics in 2008 so of course their one child policy, forced abortions of unborn babies and forced sterilization of their citizens must also be right? It's one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.

Tuck your tail between your legs and walk away kid. Because this debate is over and you lost :2 cents:
I'm sorry you must have missed the part about when the rest of the world was crashing China was growing. Don't ignore the stuff that doesn't fit your wacky idea of how things should be.

So you think that your idea of letting those children live, having the population become too much and everyone starving is better? You'd rather millions die and one baby live?

Walk away? LOL You do realize that you are arguing that the fastest growing country with one of the best (if not the best) team of scientists working for them is wrong. So you are arguing that you are somehow able to come up with an idea better than all of those people. Right.

Ethersync 10-23-2010 03:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by u-Bob (Post 17635293)
Let's not forget all the property violations... Thousands of homes that were destroyed to make room for those big stadiums.
Yeah, I was just running with his line of thought. You are absolutely right. Here are some more things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concern...and_censorship

moeloubani 10-23-2010 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by u-Bob (Post 17635263)
I'll say this one more time: The way you come up with your ideas, of what you think would be best for this planet, doesn't matter. Whether you form a scientific conclusion based on limited research or whether you cut open small birds and looks at their liver or whether you base your ideas on greed or on... It all doesn't matter. Nothing gives you the right to commit acts of aggression. Nothing gives you the right to force your will onto others.
So if right now I started putting poisons in my soil, if it doesn't hurt you directly you don't care? What if that poison seeps down and starts hurting people?

So if I have a baby and we only have food for x amount of people, is that fair if it means you CAN'T have a baby? Or should we all follow the same rules? FOOD IS LIMITED. YOUR FANTASY SOCIETY WITH UNLIMITED RESOURCES DOESN'T EXIST.

u-Bob 10-23-2010 03:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17635298)
So you think that your idea of letting those children live, having the population become too much and everyone starving is better? You'd rather millions die and one baby live?

Walk away? LOL You do realize that you are arguing that the fastest growing country with one of the best (if not the best) team of scientists working for them is wrong. So you are arguing that you are somehow able to come up with an idea better than all of those people. Right.
Like I said. Ethics (the idea of what is right and wrong) don't change based on the situation, no matter how complex the situation is. If it did, then people wouldn't be responsible for their actions because the wouldn't be able to judge beforehand whether their actions were right or wrong.

There is a difference between right and wrong. Murdering people is wrong... in every situation.

moeloubani 10-23-2010 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by u-Bob (Post 17635245)
First of all, government doesn't produce anything. Because it doesn't produce anything, it can't sell anything. because it can't sell anything, it has no income. Because it has no income, it has no money to spend. But wait, government does spend money... how does that work? Simple. The government takes out a loan and forces the population it exerts control over to pay back that loan (with interest).

Want to talk about schooling? Ask an American to find his own country on a blind map. Or ask English, Dutch, Belgian, French,... parents why they are camping outside of schools. Government planning...


So you are saying, that the only reason YOU are not robbing people right now is because the state exists? If the state didn't exist, would you rob people? Personally, I'd never rob someone. Like i said, I don't commit murder and I don't steal. Those are things I'll never do simply because I believe in justice and liberty. So that's one human being that wouldn't be robbing other people. Would you rob other people? No? ok, now there's 2 people who wouldn't rob other people. What about all other human beings on this planet? Do you think they are all evil and would all rob each other? Like I said earlier in this thread, there are bad people. Some people will commit acts of aggression. But you have the right to defend yourself against them. You have the right to use violence to defend yourself. You have the right to form an organization to protect yourself and the others who are part of your organization. You have the right to buy protection from companies that offer protection services. etc But not all people are bad.

Do you believe all people are bad?
3 possibilities:
1. All people are good. obviously, that is not an answer you'd give, based on your previous comments.
2. Some people are good, some people are bad. Personally, I believe this is the case. Now if this is the case, than the last thing you'd want is a government. Because a government is an artificial position of power and if there are good people and bad people (people who prey on all others) than bad people will do whatever they can to use/abuse/gain control over that position of power.
3. All people are bad. If all people are bad than the people who make up the government are also bad so the chances that those bad people will use their power to do good are very slim.



As long as there are people there will be disagreements. We are all individuals, we are all unique, we all have our own ideas. So obviously there will be disagreements. But using force/violence/aggression to force your ideas of what is good onto others is never acceptable.
I believe that all people are out for themselves and for their families.

Your idea of this place where everyone is nice but is a total individual is BS.

It only works with unlimited resources.

What if you were in a situation where in your little fantasy fun land everyone was all happy then one person had their food eaten by some animal and had no money. What would you do if your family was starving? Would you just sit idly by and watch them die? You ask your neighbors for help and they all say NO, we have NO EXTRA FOOD.

So you'd just sit there and watch your family die? What if the only way to keep your family alive was to physically go out and kill someone to feed your family. Would you do it? Or would you sit by as your family dies and say 'Hey, at least we were good people.'

Limited resources. Not fantasy land. Why don't you guys understand that.

When you have 5 apples you can't give 10 people an apple, it just doesn't work that way. Even if you write it a thousand times 'give 10 people an apple' it doesn't mean 5 can turn into 10. Either 10 people get half an apple or 5 people get a full one and 5 get nothing.

What part of that simple mathematics is soooo hard for you guys to understand? Resources = limited. Scientists = smarter than you guys. Decisions = made for the best of a society and not for the best of one lady who decides to break the law.

moeloubani 10-23-2010 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by u-Bob (Post 17635313)
Like I said. Ethics (the idea of what is right and wrong) don't change based on the situation, no matter how complex the situation is. If it did, then people wouldn't be responsible for their actions because the wouldn't be able to judge beforehand whether their actions were right or wrong.

There is a difference between right and wrong. Murdering people is wrong... in every situation.
You're right, it never is ok to murder someone.

Never ok to murder someone. Never. So a man rushing at you with a knife ready to kill you isn't going to be shot because of your ethics. Oh wait...

Ethics just changed. Now it's ok if it means you don't die right. If there's a little kid that you see about to blow your house up killing your family, what do you do? Oh wait. Ethics just changed.

But you tell me, when the two choices are let one baby live and millions die or one baby die and millions live what would you choose? You have only two choices. Not fantasy land. Two choices. Pick one.

Is it ok to murder the millions just so you don't hurt the cute little baby? Or is long term murder causing suffering and slow deaths not really murder? Please enlighten us oh Buddha.

Ethersync 10-23-2010 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17635298)
I'm sorry you must have missed the part about when the rest of the world was crashing China was growing. Don't ignore the stuff that doesn't fit your wacky idea of how things should be.
Do you know how China calculates GDP?

Do you know about the housing bubble China has right now?

Do you know about their empty cities? Their empty shopping centers?

China is not the bright shining star that you think they are, but let's say you are right. Are you now saying that since China got 2 things right they are right about everything? My point stands. You are just too dense to get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17635298)
So you think that your idea of letting those children live, having the population become too much and everyone starving is better?
You are assuming population would continue to explode unabated if there was no one child policy. History has proven that does not happen. You are also expressing an opinion as a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17635298)
You'd rather millions die and one baby live?
So this one baby, if left to be born, would have killed millions? :1orglaugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17635298)
Walk away? LOL You do realize that you are arguing that the fastest growing country with one of the best (if not the best) team of scientists working for them is wrong. So you are arguing that you are somehow able to come up with an idea better than all of those people. Right.
Every point you are trying to make here fails on so many levels you are just embarrassing yourself.

There are good things about China. There are also many very bad things. You may be too young to remember that in the 80s most everyone thought Japan was going to rule the world. Things do not always work out the way people predict. China has a long way to go. Also, if you knew your history you would know that during global depressions, and make no mistake that is what we are dealing with here, export based countries tend to be the hardest hit.

Back to the original point. There are already exceptions being made China's one child policy in many parts of China and more and more it is becoming clear that this was a flawed policy. Did you even read anything I linked to in this thread?

u-Bob 10-23-2010 03:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17635306)
So if right now I started putting poisons in my soil, if it doesn't hurt you directly you don't care? What if that poison seeps down and starts hurting people?
I already addressed that issue. See page 1.

Your land = your property. Your decision if you want to put stuff in the ground. But the second that stuff contaminates your neighbor's land, you are causing damage to his property and you are responsible for the damages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17635306)
So if I have a baby and we only have food for x amount of people, is that fair if it means you CAN'T have a baby? Or should we all follow the same rules? FOOD IS LIMITED. YOUR FANTASY SOCIETY WITH UNLIMITED RESOURCES DOESN'T EXIST.
Might want to... I was going to say reread my previous posts, but obviously you didn't read them at all. The idea's I expressed (free market capitalism, Austrian economics) are all based on the fact that we live in a world with limited resources. The free market is a system were no aggression is allowed (if you do commit acts of aggression, people have the right to defend themselves), a system that gives everyone the best chance to improve their situation.

You think that all resources on this planet belong to the collective and you put the state in charge of rationing things.

The funny thing is that you don't seem to realize that that big rationing-agency, the state, acts as if resources are unlimited. (deficit spending...)

moeloubani 10-23-2010 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethersync (Post 17635323)
Do you know how China calculates GDP?

Do you know about the housing bubble China has right now?

Do you know about their empty cities? Their empty shopping centers?

China is not the bright shining star that you think they are, but let's say you are right. Are you now saying that since China got 2 things right they are right about everything? My point stands. You are just too dense to get it.



You are assuming population would continue to explode unabated if there was no one child policy. History has proven that does not happen. You are also expressing an opinion as a fact.



So this one baby, if left to be born, would have killed millions? :1orglaugh
I'm sorry for making that assumption - I guess the data you have is much better than the data that the Chinese have. And I guess your brain does things way better than the Chinese teams of people do. And of course I meant it literally as if that one child lives millions will die. Not that if that one child is made an exception then every child has to be made an exception.

Bravo.

You know best for the world - fuck those people that study numbers and make decisions based on facts and real observations, let's all make our decisions based on emotions and politics. Woooo.

LOL :1orglaugh:1orglaugh

People like you guys are the problem with the US today, drinking up propaganda and spewing it out as if you knew anything. You don't. Give it up. China knows what they are doing - or at least knows better than you.

Ethersync 10-23-2010 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17635306)
So if right now I started putting poisons in my soil, if it doesn't hurt you directly you don't care? What if that poison seeps down and starts hurting people?

So if I have a baby and we only have food for x amount of people, is that fair if it means you CAN'T have a baby? Or should we all follow the same rules? FOOD IS LIMITED. YOUR FANTASY SOCIETY WITH UNLIMITED RESOURCES DOESN'T EXIST.
Resources may be limited, but human ingenuity is not. We are not running out of food. In countries where people are starving it is because of war or some other failure of government policies and no functional free market system.

Ethersync 10-23-2010 03:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17635331)
I'm sorry for making that assumption - I guess the data you have is much better than the data that the Chinese have. And I guess your brain does things way better than the Chinese teams of people do. And of course I meant it literally as if that one child lives millions will die. Not that if that one child is made an exception then every child has to be made an exception.

Bravo.

You know best for the world - fuck those people that study numbers and make decisions based on facts and real observations, let's all make our decisions based on emotions and politics. Woooo.

LOL :1orglaugh:1orglaugh

People like you guys are the problem with the US today, drinking up propaganda and spewing it out as if you knew anything. You don't. Give it up. China knows what they are doing - or at least knows better than you.
Can you quote you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by moeloubani (Post 17633164)
I say it time and time again: when someone loses an argument or they've got nothing to counter a good argument they will ALWAYS resort to attacking the person and putting the argument aside.

100% of the time. It's the most childish thing and in any real debate you'd be laughed at and ridiculed for doing it. I hope you feel like a champ while acting like a child!

moeloubani 10-23-2010 03:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by u-Bob (Post 17635330)
I already addressed that issue. See page 1.

Your land = your property. Your decision if you want to put stuff in the ground. But the second that stuff contaminates your neighbor's land, you are causing damage to his property and you are responsible for the damages.



Might want to... I was going to say reread my previous posts, but obviously you didn't read them at all. The idea's I expressed (free market capitalism, Austrian economics) are all based on the fact that we live in a world with limited resources. The free market is a system were no aggression is allowed (if you do commit acts of aggression, people have the right to defend themselves), a system that gives everyone the best chance to improve their situation.

You think that all resources on this planet belong to the collective and you put the state in charge of rationing things.

The funny thing is that you don't seem to realize that that big rationing-agency, the state, acts as if resources are unlimited. (deficit spending...)
LOL So if China says 'we are running out of resources based on our data and we need to limit our population' then your reply simply is 'no, you're wrong'.

So what if in your 'free market' society, the woman has the baby, can't care for it. What happens to the baby now? Who pays for it? That baby has to use its own body to make money?? :1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Both of you guys need to wake up and realize that China knows what they're are doing and you guys simply have noooo fucking clue what you're talking about. Go back to drumming your hippy drum and let real men make real decisions.

moeloubani 10-23-2010 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethersync (Post 17635337)
Can you quote you?
That's not an attack against you personally it's an attack against the way you view the argument.

moeloubani 10-23-2010 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethersync (Post 17635332)
Resources may be limited, but human ingenuity is not. We are not running out of food. In countries where people are starving it is because of war or some other failure of government policies and no functional free market system.
Because you say we are not running out of food it doesn't mean that the teams of people that found that China IS running out of food is wrong.

They know more than you and make more informed decisions. Am I wrong about that?


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