The only way I ever see the food running out is after a nuclear war or some cosmic disaster. I grow some of my own vegetables, my neighbor grows vegetables, I buy milk from a local farm,... People are still buying to products i sell, I invest, I save money for a rainy day,...

In reality there are natural disasters, accidents, acts of aggression and a limited supply of raw materials (some supplies take millions of years to replenish like oil if we run out, others takes months (vegetables) or years (wood)). One thing that's unlimited: the supply of ideas. Human beings constantly come up with new ways to do things, new and more efficient solutions to old problems. i believe in human creativity and cooperation (aka the free market).

Looks like your lack of faith in humankind has you trapped in some kind of Malthusian nightmare :)

I agree, and that rule is what Bastiat called "The Rule Of Law", what Jefferson and Franklin called "Divine Rights", what Spooner called "Natural Rights", what Rothbard described as the non-aggression principle, what some call "Rational Rights", what Hoppe refers to as the "Natural Order",.... All different names to describe the same thing, the same solution to the same problem. The problem you just described. And the answer is: every human being is free to do with his body and property what he wants as long as he doesn't cause damage to an other human being or his property.

Is that utopian? No, because we recognize that freedom and justice don't guarantee happiness, but merely offer the best chances for people to become (what they themselves consider to be) happy. We also recognize the fact that acts of aggression are committed and will continue to be committed as long as there are humans, so people also have the right to defend themselves against acts of aggression (and can of course use violence to do so)

We used to have kings that knew what was best for us. We used to have priests that knew what was best for us. Thank God we now have scientists that know what is good for us. :winkwink:

Ignorance is bliss.

It's great that you live where you live - but some places in the world people are starving. Because there is NO FOOD.

How can you be so blind to not see that?

Are you comparing kings and priests with scientists? You really think that decisions made based on nothing (kings and priests) are the same as decisions made based on science. Do you not understand science? It's based on facts, observable facts and repeatable results. Over the past 2000 years how much has religion progressed versus science?

Your idea of everyone can do what they want as long as they don't hurt anyone else only works in an environment where everything is unlimited.

In the one we live in today, reality, our resources are limited. That means when one more human comes onto Earth everyone else has a little less they can use. By just being born another human is taking a piece of that pie. And it all works out as long as the pie isn't being eaten too fast. How do we know what's too fast? We look at past experiences and results and we apply that knowledge to future forecasts using science. Then we set guidelines so that while everyone has their freedom, no one person disturbs the equilibrium so much that the whole thing collapses.

So China is going to let people move to Australia and Australia is going to let them in? By the way while large 90% of Australia is desert. We've still got room in the US and Canada I doubt you'd be for having a couple hundred million Chinese in here.

Not my responsibility. I didn't cause the famine in whatever country there is famine. I can chose to help (as I have done so in the past), but forcing me to help or deciding it's better that some people don't have babies or anything like that is simply an act of aggression.

Thousands of years of history are filled with people who claimed to know what was best for the people... From faro's to emperors to high chancellors to presidents...

Why is that?


correct. see above.

You're assuming that just because you're being born, you have the right to a piece of the pie. So if I want a Ferrari, they should give me one, right?

As an individual you have the right to use your own body as you see fit. That means you can use your body (your property) to acquire property. You provide services to people and get property in return (selling your time and labor), you can gather wood, fruit,... you can mine metals and minerals (unclaimed resources),....

Being born does not give you a right to a piece of the pie. Being born gives you the right to use your body. If you want a piece of the pie, you need to work for it. If you want a bigger piece of the pie, you can accomplish that by contributing to the community: by offering a product or service people are willing to pay for. It's called the free market.

You post still doesn't adress how China should adress it's overpopulation problem. While the EARTH may not have too many people CHINA and India certainly do.

This is why we should be scared of China becoming a superpower, if they aren't already.

I think I addressed that: People are free to use their body and property in any way they see fit as long as they don't cause damage to another human being or his property. It's called the free market. 6 billion people are better at coming up with new ideas than a couple of thousand government officials that have no incentive to improve the situation.

Containing people between artificial borders, restricting the flow of information, restricting free speech, restricting property rights, selling the privilege to make money to those that pay the biggest bribes,... might have something to do with the current situation in China.

last time I checked China doesn't have a free market ANYTHING.

The problem with people like you is that you recognized problem but you have pie in the sky answers that end up solving nothing. If you think the current system the way the world works is going to change anytime soon you will be disappointed. I prefer to come up with answers that are actually viable.

Seriously?

It's a damn shame you weren't one of these forced abortions. Please do humanity a favor and abort yourself so we can save the food, k?

China has a bigger problem. Too many men and not enough women for them all. This is a direct result of these forced abortions and child limits.

exactly, that's the problem. Same problem with the US and EU, no free market.

The problem with people like you is that you put your trust in a system that has failed to deliver time and time again. A system (the state) that constantly claims to aim to improve things but in reality causes nothing but problems. A system that is unethical to boot and has become more and more corrupt over time. A system that only benefits a small minority and makes things worse for the majority of us. A system that puts on many faces. And every face claims to be better than the other ones, but in the end they're all the same. To quote Ludwig von Mises; There's the state and there's the free-market. There is no third option.

What I'm proposing isn't an instant-fix for all of our problems. What I'm proposing is the beginning. I'm proposing to end a corrupt and unethical system that constantly causes more problems, so we can finally deal with the problems that already exist.

Ask yourself this: If the state is unable to solve our problems, then why do we need the state?

Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Germany, Italy, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Montenegro, Poland, Romania, and Slovenia are all European countries experiencing population declines. France and the UK would also if not for the huge immigrant populations. You can also add Russia and Japan to the list of "dying" countries.

Women, in China and elsewhere in the world, often do not have any say in whether or not they get pregnant. It's easy for people not living in that kind of environment to say, "Well, just don't get pregnant" but that is fantasy. Overpopulation is a real problem, but beating women and forcing them to abort fetuses is FAR from the answer.

I say it time and time again: when someone loses an argument or they've got nothing to counter a good argument they will ALWAYS resort to attacking the person and putting the argument aside.

100% of the time. It's the most childish thing and in any real debate you'd be laughed at and ridiculed for doing it. I hope you feel like a champ while acting like a child!

My response is not the same as saying, "go fuck yourself asshole." You say there is not enough food on the planet. You say there are too many people. I say, if you really feel that way do something about it. Words to action. That sort of thing...

I am curious though -- You support governments killing 8 month old unborn babies against the will of the mother. Do you have kids? Do you plan to?

Yes thousands of years, but if you knew anything about the history of science you would know that it's only recently that people have been making decisions based on observable and measurable facts. Notice how in the past 100 years or so we've advanced so much technologically. Why do you think that is? It's because of SCIENCE. So you can pretend like science is the same as religion but quite simply it is not. It is real.

You still haven't come up with any real plan and other than 'blah blah killing is bad' you haven't come up with any solution for when these children are born.

Should they jail the parents? Take the kids to foster care and now have to feed them, raise them and house them on the government dollar? How long do you think they could do that with a population of 1+billion people?

Be realistic here please, lets grow up and realize that sometimes grownups have to make hard decisions for the good of all the dummies.

I don't have kids but I hope I do one day. And I don't say that lightly as if it's ok to kill babies - it isn't. But what are they supposed to do? What choice do they have? Let the baby live then they have to let every baby live. Put the mom and dad in jail and the baby lives AND they have to pay to raise the baby.

If they just let it slide then the place becomes overpopulated and there isn't food for anyone! So what can they do?

Every member of society has to follow a certain set of rules in order for things to work. They are rules you just HAVE to follow - and they have to be enforced - because without them society would fall into shambles. In China one of those laws is the one child thing.

I wouldn't have more than 1 child if I lived in China unless I had that money to pay because I would recognize that I have a duty to my country and to everyone else living there. I'm not a selfish prick that puts myself above others.

You are the biggest hypocrite on the planet if you have kids yourself. If you believe this bullshit lead by example and sterilize yourself voluntarily.

I dont think he is bullshitting. He said he will abide by the rule of the land where ever he lives. Is that wrong? Or Right?

The problem of world overpopulation is a myth. A myth he believes in. That is the bullshit I was referring to and if he does believe this he has no business having children. Period.

good point.

It's called: practice what you preach. Funny how people who believe in overpopulation, still think THEY have the right to have children but others don't.

If I lived in China where the rules were that I could only have one child unless I paid a fee then I would only have one child unless I wanted to pay a fee. That's the law. A set of rules that citizens must abide by in order for society to function.

I live in Canada where there isn't that rule, so fortunately I don't have to worry about that. We have plenty of food and fresh water here in Canada.

I don't like the idea of it as much as you guys but what I'm saying is you can't blame them when they have no other choice.

It is progressive elitism at its finest. It goes beyond thinking they have the right and others dont. They go to the extreme where they think other peoples babies should be KILLED. :mad:

Hitler would be proud that his progressive ideas of eugenics has not died.

It's not about whether or not science is like religion... It's about the fact that it's unethical to force your will or the will of a small elite (be it religious or scientific or aristocratic or financial or whatever) onto others.

1. You simply don't know if population growth will cause the kind of problems you keep referring to. Not even those all knowing scientists (btw: a real scientist always questions what he thinks he already knows). Remember those predictions about the Mexian Flu/Swine Flu that turned out to be completely off? You know the reason scientists gave for their miscalculations? Their computer models didn't take into account that humans change their behavior when the situation changes.

2. Like I said: The free market doesn't guarantee that everybody will be happy and that there won't be any problems. The free market merely offers the best chance for everybody to become happy and overcome their problems.

3. The fact that you (or any group of people) perceive something as a threat, doesn't give you the right to act unethically and commit acts of aggression. If It did, than all a person who wanted to commit an act of aggression would have to do, is come up with a good excuse.

Finally, there we have it. The elitist view. The idea that people are stupid and need guidance, a shepherd, a great leader, a fürer, someone to watch over them, someone who knows better, a big brother,...

So, if the Chinese government passed a law that a lottery be held every year to randomly choose women to sterilize you would be cool with that too?

Now how about if the Canadian government did it? All because some bureaucrat decided there are too many people in Canada. I mean the law is the law... You would be cool with that? Even if it was your wife and it meant you could not have children?

Oh, and China's one child policy is a total failure and will not last more than a couple more years. 5 years max.

You always have a choice. Committing an act of aggression is never ok.

Primitive sub-human baby killers.

Just saying you have a choice doesn't mean there is a choice.

Yes people need someone to guide them, people are too dumb to put together a proper sentence for the most part let alone work together to run a society.

China's one child policy has lasted for 32 years so saying it won't last for 2 is just ignorant.

If someone in Canada did it then I would vote against it, and it still passed, I would leave Canada. It's that simple.

It's great that you think the scientists are wrong. After all, after years of schooling, endless models with mountains of data is just nothing compared to what you just 'feel'. Yayyyy!

Human beings are complex creatures. The ways we interact are even more complex. Do you really believe a bunch of scientists with a bunch of computers can predict how 6 billion people will interact, what new ideas they will come up with, how they will respond to unforeseen events,...?

You do get that centralized planning has never worked long term? It always ends bad. Always.

And as far as these "scientists" go that you keep referring to. Who? What exactly are you talking about? Overpopulation of the world or just China? Do you know how often centrally planned government programs, planned by scientists, have ended in horrific failure?

How old are you?

Maybe not exactly but it's the best we have.

It's not. Far from.

It brought you the financial crisis, the BP oil spill, a couple of wars, rising food prices,...

Yes as well as all the technology, medicine, civility, infrastructure, and all the other good things in life.

No it's not. For centuries female babies have been killed after they were born. And it still goes on today and still would regardless of 1 child policy or not. For some reason all these idiots only want sons, but aren't smart enough to realize if everyone has boys there won't be any females for their sons to marry and have kids with.

Exactly! And in China specifically there are many examples of how badly central planning fucked up the country. The Great Leap Forward is a perfect example of this. It ended in what is now referred to as, "Great Chinese Famine." 45 million people died in 4 years.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...s-2081630.html

You just made a case for why their 1 child policy has caused an imbalance.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...Yo1L8qGckOzoKQ

It's a long article. Learn something... http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/1...a-germain.html

I constantly marvel at how Americans seem to think that Chinese are still running around in rice paddies with no electricity, and still using rickshaws to get around. Oh and their navy is a bunch of leaky boats, and their airforce is just a strip of fire crackers taped to a kite.

Government planning brought you those things? Human creativity and cooperation did. Just imagine what we could have achieved without constant interference of the state.