God is a pretty blanketed term for a higher power, people will worship it in many different ways. Even if it just comes down to worshiping the driving energy which science accepts. Atheism itself is becoming a really preachy religion that really can't be proven correct any more than theism. I think it's pretty obvious to point out that organized religions are nothing more than corrupted business empires, and the fairy tales that they preach are chocked full of shit, but denial of a power beyond our knowledge is still a little premature. The only reasonable answer to the argument is to not know what that power is definitively, admit it, and quit giving a fuck either way.

Immediately dismissing a higher power because a Christian type God doesn't make sense, is as lacking in imagination as jumping on the God bandwagon. :2 cents:

*whooosh*

You're the one making assertions here. Oh wow you said "or something" after god for the thing you assert has always existed, as though the something that has always existed before time and space could be anything BUT a god. Unless you're just giving a fancy name to an always existing particle f course, in which case you might as well just say the big bang always existed in it's un-banged state and achieve nothing. Otherwise you're just inviting infinite regress which is facile.

To counter your assertion:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

Truth claims are not a matter of imagination, they are a matter of evidence.

Show me the evidence that proves there is no higher power driving things. In fact the evidence is quite astoundingly in favor of a higher power, it's called energy. Worship it as whatever you will, it is the driving force that powers everything we know. What that energy is exactly, is all assumption on both sides of the fence. In general, atheists are only slightly less ignorant and annoying in their views than religious nuts. Trust me though, the preachy nature of today's atheism is bordering on being a religion of it's own. Even when it comes down to pure "science" and "truth", most of what we know about existence is still entirely theoretic. No matter how convinced you are that being an atheist is the more "intelligent" decision, it's beliefs (yes beliefs) are still all faith. You just believe that your faith is more true than another's faith, which basically makes you just as much as a whackjob as the next when you start getting hardcore about it...

Once again for emphasis, the only reasonable stance is not knowing the unknowable, not claiming to know the unknowable, and quite frankly not giving a give a shit either way.

Atheism is a religion? Lay off the catnip. "Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."

Again, I have never said there is no supreme being. I don't know of many atheists who would make such a bold statement. We don't know. To not explore other options and accept them as equally plausible is ignorant. Science and evidence (not fear and superstition) are the keys to figuring it all out.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Seriously? Homo Sapiens have been around for about a quarter of a million years. We started with simple stone tools. Give humans a little credit.

Look up the transition to civilization. Modern civilization started about 10,000 years ago. That's where we started working together and things took off. Opposable thumbs, dexterity, complex thought and the ability to work together led us to where we are today.

I agree with what you are saying, but I would add for clarification...

"Atheism" (a-theism) addresses Theism -- the belief in one god as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation.

When you look at the Theistic belief systems on offer and their claims, there is good reason to doubt they are true.


Here you seem to assume there is a power. I don't think "power" is the right word and maybe that is just what came to your mind, or maybe it was a Freudian slip.

The reasonable answer is to admit that it is currently unknown whether there is or is not a higher power; not "what that power is definitively".

Of course we did. All species evolve.

Theism has miracles as part of their core claims. Take the miracle of healing through prayer. There have been large, controlled studies on this that do not support this claim.

Is it therefore "faith" to doubt that the claim is true?

Atheism is a belief claim, unlike agnosticism which is claim about epistemology. That does not mean that there is not such thing as justified beliefs based on the evidence or lack thereof.

Proofs are reserved for mathematics and logic, not science. We "believe" evolution is true because of the evidence, but it may not turn out to be true. It only takes finding a rabbit fossil in the precambrian.

Having a child is almost never rewarding economically. Unless, the parent puts the child to work, or something.

You are not listening to what I'm saying at all, and you're just hearing whatever you want to here. Not surprising though, you clearly don't even understand the definition of atheism. No atheist would admit to the possibility of a singular supreme being. Atheism is not the disbelief in the Christian God, or whatever other god you want to sub in him for him. It is the disbelief altogether in a singular theistic god at all.

But hey, people can't stand hearing that their OPINIONS are NOT FACT. I said atheism is becoming much like a religion in the way they PREACH their BELIEFS.

You fall back onto science which is always the atheist go to, but really what has science proven regarding existence? It has proven zero. It has given us some THEORIES, of which people have based more BELIEFS. Really we have absolutely squat for evidence either way. Lack of evidence is not evidence in itself, so neither atheism nor theistic religions have any facts to go on here. You say not exploring facts is ignorant, yet atheists refuse to accept that a God exists, or even in the possibility that he does. This is where the preachy atheist drive, and the "My beliefs are right, your beliefs are wrong" starts kicking in, and atheists become no better than say Christians or Muslims. Case in poit, someone like yourself who waves the atheist flag, yet isn't even an actual atheist.

Do I think these religions are wrong? Yes. Do I think that atheism is instantly the answer because I disagree with religious teachings? No. It really seems to me these days that both sides of the argument are playing the same stupid foolish game trying to be the one who is right and recruit more followers for their cause. Thus having atheistic beliefs, finds itself parallel to having theistic beliefs in the stupid way the believers respent their ideas.

You're both a pain in the fucking ass to listen to after a while.

Evolution proves that Christian belief is wrong. Studies have proven that prayer is wrong. All any of this proves is that people's beliefs are wrong. It proves nothing about there being a supreme entity or power existing one way or the other. When there is no physical proof either way, you can justify your beliefs in whatever way you'd like.

Your point about agnosticism and atheism is spot on, and just goes to further my point. Agnosticism differentiates between beliefs and knowledge, and stands uncommitted to taking sides when their is no true knowledge. Questioning our ability to truly know, seems like a much more logical road to take than standing on either side of a dead end argument, beating the same dead horse, and while arguing over some shit we just cannot and do not understand.

Back to my first point, evolution does not work against atheists in anyway, and who cares? Either side could be right. I tend to side with atheists, but I don't instantly believe it is the absolute correct belief. What I KNOW, is that it is a belief, and I'll leave it at that. I'm not going to cling to it, and regard it as fact like atheists do.

Sorry to hijack your argument with babaganoosh, but this is simply neither true for the atheists I know nor is it true for the leading atheists that grab all the press. They all admit to the possibility; what they all address is the probability based on the evidence or lack thereof of the theistic claims compared to alternative explanations.

correct, as long as the other god you substitute is a theistic one.

sadly, i agree with you. don't lump all atheists into this group, though.

What would you suggest we fall back on? Do you really need the case for science made for you? Either turn off your computer, quit driving your car, heating your house, etc. or make another argument.

Again, this is simply not true by definition. The "possibility" certainly exists. The possibility that angels and gremlins exists, but there has to be some justified reason to believe so. Wouldn't you agree with that?

I already gave an example of evidence that could have easily pointed to theism being the preferred explanation. It just did not turn out that way.

I don't think being "preachy" is right either. People should assess the evidence and reach reasonable conclusions -- even if they are not definitive and subject to revision (as is everything that is based on evidence).

Atheism is only an answer to the the claim that theism is true. It is not, and never will be, more than that.

This may be true, but it is only ignorant people or people with an agenda that pursue this. Atheism is a philosophical position in response to a claim and that's it.

If this was directed in part to me, I'm sorry you feel that way. Not my intention. :)

In order for the Fundamentalists to out breed the Atheists ( or I would argue that most people are Agnostic) One would have to assume that greater than 50% of the offspring actually conform to the religion in which they were brought up, otherwise those same fundamentalists could be breeding themselves into a minority!

I think we were talking past each other a bit. It sounds like we agree on almost everything. :)

see above on the difference between agnosticism and atheism. They are not mutually exclusive.

I may be wrong on this, but there may be more at play here for why certain groups have more children than others.

For instance, it may be that higher educated, wealthier groups have less children, while lower educated, poorer groups have more children.

The fact that lower educated, poorer groups are more religious, or are the fastest growing groups of religious, may not be the cause, but rather a correlate, of the birthrate.

No slip, I mean it when I say power. Even if all that power boils down to is the energy we know from science class as a kid and it has no rhyme or reason to it. It is still there as a whole and turning that cranks that make everything go. Which in itself is miraculous and unexplainable. We get our energy from the sun, and what do all the modern Judaeo-Christian religions seem to trace themselves back to? Sun worship. So maybe their original roots aren't wrong, and it is simply the corruption of religious institutions over the centuries which have erred. I simply don't think we can know, or ever will know. It simply just is.

I tend to agree with the opinion that Atheism as a term shouldn't even exist. Why do you need to identify yourself as a non-something? I'm not an adoctor, I'm just not a fucking doctor. It's a given name for a belief system which is spawning a whole religiouslike following of anti-religion. All it's missing out on now, besides the obvious god-figure, is a weekly meeting and a donation box so the church of atheism can go on their mission to promote the atheist agenda

I agree with you on most of what you've said ya. I can agree on that. :thumbsup

Jesus Christ on a cracker... it's a vagina, woman! Not a clown car!

Yeah, I don't take issue with this at all. It's just definition and semantic preferences. "Power" to me usually references agency, so I would be quick to broaden the use of the word or add other words.

We do know how the sun makes it energy; which is not to say why that is the case. There will always be the question of "well, why is it that way and not some other way?".

We will always be left with "well, because such and such made it that way. we don't really understand such and such because such and such is timeless, immaterial, etc. It's all just a mystery!".

I find that unsatisfactory, but it will always be there. :disgust

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Anyone who says there definitively is NOT a god is just as bad as the people who say there is one in my book.

The existence of god is non falsifiable and therefor a belief that there ISN'T a god is still... blind faith. Remember that atheists!

I don't pretend to know if there is or isn't a god, I simply live my life the best I can according to my own morals and values.

What I loathe about Western Religions, specifically Christianity, is that they teach "forgiveness" as the absolute solution. They should be teaching self reflection and changing your own patterns that you aren't happy with. The idea that you can do whatever you want in this world and that it's "ok" as long as you ask for forgiveness is downright appalling to me...

Atheists and agnostics and non-theists and secularists have all been born from generations before them as well.

Study: Busted.

i pretty much agree with everything AJC has said (sounds like you did a minor or a major in Philosophy too? lol). imho, god, if such a thing exists, is basically an infinitely complex mathematic equation involving the universe, that we will always be incapable of understanding. 3.14............

Are you really trying to tell me what I believe? That's awesome. :1orglaugh:1orglaugh

If you're looking up atheist in the dictionary as the entire foundation for your argument then you are off-base. We have no idea if some kind of supreme being exists. We deny the existence of a monotheistic god and ruler. Yes, we look to science to dispute religious teachings. So far hard evidence has worked extremely well in disputing ridiculous teachings.

I'd be happy to look for evidence that a god exists. I am always open to seeing some kind of hard evidence of that. I have yet to see a shred. Again, why do people want to cling to a supreme being as the only plausible explanation? There are thousands of possible explanations (some more plausible than others). I think Hitchens said that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." I don't want to get into the whole burden of proof discussion but for me to believe I need to see proof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

Actually no, Atheism is the belief that there is NO god OR gods or anything...

"Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities."

You aren't an atheist if you do not specifically believe that there is no god or gods or deities, etc...

So, you aren't an atheist, you should probably stop calling yourself that...

AJC is correct. You are claiming to be something you are not :P

(read my post three above yours)

@Babaganoosh

Also, I think you are the same as what I am; agnostic.

EDIT: Although I'm also a Taoist... nice that they don't interfere with each other :)

Again, if you go by the dictionary definition of atheist then no, I am not an atheist. The actual definition is much more complicated. Look up the wikipedia entry on atheism. It is not as cut and dried as most people think.

You're the one making claims, the onus is 110% on you. If I said I found hammer head shark smoking a crack pipe in my basement quoting voltaire, I wouldn't whine at you for proof that "there is no" hammer head shark. You can't prove a negative. That's basic logic. You make the claim, you support the claim.

Energy already has a name. What do you get from giving it another one? I call my wall socket AC power, not a higher power because that achieves nothing, adds no value or understanding. You call energy a higher power. Now what. Is carbon a higher power too? We're just borrowing that as well.. What about oxygen? Wow, there are a lot of things I can uselessly call higher powers. If I eat I will shit, thank the higher powers that the prayer of eating will be answered with the colon of shitting. The universe will end in heat death. I guess your higher power has a limited life span too.
Seriously though, I'd like to know, what do you personally get out of trying to add a label or try and squeeze in a mystical element to energy? How does it increase your understanding? Energy has been and will continue to power life for a long time.. it's something you're borrowing from the universe right now, it's bigger than you and more constant, but so what?

Just because you don't understand what it means doesn't mean that it doesn't apply to me. If you had a few more brain cells remaining you might have been able to grasp it.

You're a highschool burnout...talk about being a dork.

Give it up, people. You can't ever win an argument with a religious person. They replace science with belief and mostly wrong, loose correlations, and call it facts.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

Awesome dude.

There is definitely NOT a santa claus - the case for a "GOD" is just as weak.

Fuck that, I'm Albertan. I dropped out of highschool to drill for oil. DRILL BABY DRILL.

What the fuck are you babbling about? Energy is energy, astounding fucking breakthrough. Comparing energy to an element like oxygen or carbon, makes no sense. An element alone powers nothing without energy. Drawing reference to your AC power supply makes no sense either. It's merely a form of energy transfer. Energy is what it is, energy. That is that. But what exactly is that? Why is it here? If energy cannot be created nor destroyed, where did it come from? When you start looking ito science's theories, things start riding on faith just about as much as claiming that energy source is a godly deity. The whole big bang. Something from nothing. Why not just say God did it? Makes about as much sense in reality.
.
When it comes down to it, science can give it's little spiel on energy, but it still doesn't really know anything about it aside from how it acts and reacts. Everything we "know" about creation and the source of the universe is 100% theory.

My only reference to energy was stating that there is a power out there beyond our understanding, and maybe all that power boils down to is energy as we know it from science, which is still pretty much unexplainable. That is until we crush science as we know it and prove the first law of thermodynamics wrong, by learning to create energy out of nothing.

I'm not trying to rename energy, or cite energy as a God-figure, you're continuously pumping words into my mouth, and reading shit to fit whatever your argument is. I get nothing from trying to label a higher power, because I don't try to label a higher power. Have you read and comprehended a single fucking word I've typed? No. Why? because all you do is spout whatever bullshit you need to support your "there is no God" belief. So tell me, what do you get from so adamantly stating that there is no higher power to be named, when you don't know either?

You end your argument with "so what?" EXACTLY! So fucking what? Who cares either fucking way? There is no possibility to know. Maybe we don't have any proof of God because he's forsaken his creation and does give a fuck to pay any attention to us. Maybe there just isn't one and everything exists randomly with zero true meaning at all. No one will ever fucking know. Arguing either side of the argument makes you an idiot...

Might as well, you clearly don't know what you believe yourself... :2 cents:

so was i. u of a baby.

I lived on Whyte for 2 years, the only time I spent on campus was wandering around high on shrooms. For some reason I always wanted to go wandering campus when I was eating mushies. Lots of shit to trip out on around there. Loved trying to catch jackrabbits. Fuck are there a lot of rabbits on campus, they're everywhere...

I hear you guys are gonna get fucking puked on out in Fernie today. 20cm?

Are you religious? You follow Judaism? It's ok to stake a claim to your faith... You are a product of the molding and shaping done to your mind when you were young and impressionable. But you won't find much comfort fighting with people on a porn blog about it... You know, I have a lot of Jewish friends and here is the cool thing about Jews - they like the structure and the traditions and the warm embrace of their religious communities, but unlike Christians and Muslims, many of them know that their religion and all religions are most likely total bullshit. Jews like religion, but they are open to science and they can adapt to science... Sounds like you feel this way yes?

But the argument that "you can't prove there isn't a god" is bogus - science is getting incredibly close to understanding the circumstances with which life sprang forth on this planet - all the building blocks of life are found in the icy comets that crashed into the earth in abundance during the formation of our solar system. The conditions and the mechanisms that allowed natural selection to occur and life forms to become more complex over time are well understood.

ALL the religions have wildly incorrect and laughable origin-of-life theories, they are now proven false by science - if you don't believe that, then you don't believe in your car, or the computer you are reading this on.

i lived on whyte for around 5 years (you remember that converted hospital they made into lofts? that's were i moved there when my company was around a year old or so). yeah, u of a is an interesting place lol. my brother lived in hub for 6 years (history degree, then masters), we got into all kinds of hijinks over the years.

also, my first beer in a bar (i was 16), was at room at the top. we got into the underground tunnels once. endless trouble with security douches. have you ever been in the science building? the wierdest building on campus. hallways that lead no where, etc. that where i did most of my labs. holy rambling post batman. i miss those days.

yeah we got 18 cm yesterday, 22 cm today, mountain officially opens on Dec 4.

added you to icq. have some questions for you

224758164

Overstatement of the year... We have some new theories... The nice advantage science has over religion is that the scientific community is willing to accept new theories. When a theory is proven wrong, they can accept that and write it off. Religion can't/won't do that. Doesn't change the fact that it's mostly theory. People throw so much faith at scientific theory. There is still so much we have no clue about, just look at NASA's announcement today. Everything we "knew" about life has changed again.

I'm not a religious person, and if I had to choose a side I'd lean towards the argument for atheism, but I've realized that Atheists are almost as flawed in their argument and theists. I do believe there are forces beyond our comprehension that are driving existence, I just don't think they come in the form of the Gods that religion has taught. I don't believe there is a differentiation between good or evil, and I don't believe there is any cosmic battle between the two. I'm not going to rule out the possibility though.

If I had to give anyone credit for getting "religion" right, it would be the old indigenous pagan type followings who worshiped the earth they lived on. They still looked towards spirits and all that shit, but at least their prayer was pointed in the right direction. They essentially worshiped the building blocks of life that the earth provided them.

well said... you're a smart cat

Atherists are soooooooooooooo cool... :thumbsup

Awww, burnout learned a new phrase. That's cute. It's almost like he's trying to think. Scroll back and see who started with the personal attacks.

The dictionary isn't exactly wrong but it lacks a detailed explanation.

I know. You are one by the way.

I also believe that your kids are a hell of a lot smarter than you and when they see you make a stupid statement like that, they feel embarrassed that "survival of the fittest" doesn't apply to them or any of your offspring.:1orglaugh