Are we seeing the beginnings of the proverbial "wall" coming down in the Middle East? - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Poindexterity · 02-20-2011, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

.... but here is the problem with that.....move on to where?.. Israel also has an extremist right that thinks ALL of Israel belongs to the Jews. The vast population I've met in Israel want the to live in peace and give concessions to the Palestinians or so they say. I'm not going to go into character assassination of Israeli business ethics, but this map proves that Israel can't do that and clear what their true agenda is.

its been 11 years, whats that map look like today?

Paul Markham · 02-20-2011, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackmonsters

They will become democracies and elect Hamas.
Then we will protest the election and ask them to step down.
When they do not step down then we will cut off any help or negotiations and
Israel will blockade the people and try to starve the elected government out
of office.

OH WAIT!

That already happened.

Never mind.

If enough countries in the region go Democratic and pro getting Israel out of the ME, by using oil as the weapon. Cutting them off isn't an option. Saudi produces so much oil that keeps the World turning, will Russia back the US and Israel or Arab Countries?

Some of the posts here are not thinking very deeply into this. The general populace of these countries hate Israel, for good reasons. If enough get together and use their Democratic will, the outcome might be very different than the wishful thinkers imagine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

Well, the rulers of the countries in question have long sought to keep most of their countries wealth and not to share what they do not absolutely have to with the general population.

The Royal families shit on the peasantry too long and too much. Now the Peasants are revolting.

This is about economic circumstance mainly ...

It's easy to buy a few rich Princes and dictators and get them to carry out your wishes. Tougher to buy a whole country. Many of those rulers were puppets of the West and citizens of the West got the benefit. The downside was Israel doing as it pleased and a few million Palestinians got fucked.

CDSmith · 02-20-2011, 05:08 AM

In today's NY Times:

MANAMA, Bahrain — Thousands of jubilant protesters surged back into the symbolic heart of Bahrain on Saturday as the government withdrew its security forces, calling for calm after days of violent crackdowns.

It was a remarkable turn after a week of protests that had shifted by the hour between joy and fear, euphoric surges of people power followed by bloody military crackdowns, as the monarchy struggled to calibrate a response to an uprising whose counterparts have toppled other governments in the region.

“All Bahrain is happy today,” said Jasim al-Haiki, 24, as he cheered the crowds in the central Pearl Square, aflutter with Bahraini flags. “These are Bahrainis. They do what they say they will do!”

The shift in this tiny Persian Gulf nation, a strategic American ally, was at least a temporary victory for the Shiite protesters, who had rejected a call to negotiate from Bahrain’s Sunni monarch until the authorities pulled the military off the streets.

But the events here were being watched with trepidation in neighboring Saudi Arabia, an adjacent Sunni monarchy with a restive Shiite population, and rippling across the region, where an extraordinary few weeks of antigovernment protests have ricocheted from northwest Africa to the Middle East.

Antigovernment demonstrations erupted again on Saturday in Libya, Algeria and Yemen, with each of those governments turning to violence to stop the protests. The worst carnage was in Libya, where security forces fired on protesters in Benghazi, the country’s second-largest city, killing dozens and pushing the death toll after three days of demonstrations to over 100.

In Algiers, protesters were quickly routed by hundreds of baton-wielding police officers. In Yemen, after both sides clashed in a hail of bottles, shoes and rocks, government supporters opened fire on antigovernment demonstrators, wounding at least four.

In Bahrain, the day started out with a lull, as both sides appeared to have been rattled by the violence of the past week, in which at least seven people were killed. The leaders of the major opposition parties called off the protests for Saturday, telling the public to stay home in an effort to lower the temperature.

But in what appeared to be a measure of who controls the movement now, the people ignored their ostensible leaders. Marchers set out from villages and the city center and by midday converged on Pearl Square.

The police met them with tear gas and rubber bullets. Young men collapsed in the road and others ran for cover, but people kept coming.

The police fired again.

Then the government blinked, perhaps sensing that the only way to calm a spiral of violence that claimed more lives with each passing day was to cede the square to the protesters.

The police left so suddenly and so completely that it took a minute for the protesters, still rubbing the tear gas out of their eyes, to realize they once again controlled the square.

By early evening, tens of thousands of people were pouring into the square, waving flags, some dropping to the ground to pray, and others shouting congratulations to each other. Marching past pools of blood on the road, they savored a moment of bittersweet jubilation, a mix of disbelief and sheer joy that they had prevailed, tempered with sadness for those who had been killed.

“Of course we are happy,” said Hassan al-Freidi, 53. “But I want to tell you: not yet. Today we’re mourning and honoring our martyrs; it is about joy and mourning. But it’ll only be about joy when we get our rights. And I know this day will come. Bullets do not scare us.”

The protesters won the battle on Saturday, although it was still not clear where it would all lead. The government had relinquished the square before, on Wednesday, only to return with a deadly assault on Thursday. On Friday, the army opened fire on a group of about 1,000 peaceful demonstrators trying to walk into the square.

.....

To the north, Kuwait also has a Sunni monarchy and a restive Shiite population. The big fear among Sunni governments is that Bahrain, once part of Persia, could become another Iran, where the Islamic revolution of 1979 produced a bellicose Shiite theocracy.

But the Shiite protesters here insist their revolt is secular and democratic. When the protests started on Feb. 14, in a so-called Day of Rage modeled after events in Egypt and Tunisia, demonstrators called for a constitutional monarchy, an elected cabinet and a constitution written by the people, as opposed to one imposed by the king.

After two protesters were killed in the first two days, both shot in the back by the police, an infuriated and reinvigorated opposition added a new demand: an end to the monarchy.

Interesting stuff there. While a lot of people even in this thread insist it's more of the same religion-based uprisings (much like in Iran's past etc) many of the protestors themselves seem to insist their cause is secular in nature.

I wonder who to believe?

Paul Markham · 02-20-2011, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith

I'd have moved completely out of the region and away to another continent 30 years ago Paul. But then again I have the sense to know and accept the fact that Israel isn't going anywhere. That's a given. So knowing that, I can also deduce that if there is any chance of having peace in the ME then it's a pretty safe bet that Israel's muslim neighbors are going to have do exactly that --- stop the hate and stop the fighting and move on.

The alternative of course is to keep on quibbling and poking and bitching and moaning and throwing rocks at tanks and suicide bombings etc etc etc...., which a lot of people will no doubt defend as the right thing to do. However I'm quite certain this path will lead the world to WWIII eventually. Yes, yes it's best for them to keep up "the fight" over those few strips of land. Good plan.

Well it seems you don't have the back bone that the Palestinians have. They won't march off to where ever to please the Jews. Fighting with an army won't work, fighting with oil power will.

If the Arab World gang up and use their oil power do you propose the Jews should just pack their bags and move out?

Of course when you open your doors to a family of Palestinians, or donate a ton of money to them being resettled we will take you seriously. Or should they just Fuck Off to anywhere but near Winnipeg and not expect any help from you?

Paul Markham · 02-20-2011, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poindexterity

its been 11 years, whats that map look like today?

Not much to be found today, I did find this.

Guess it's changing so fast it's pointless to draw a map.

Paul Markham · 02-20-2011, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith

In today's NY Times:

Interesting stuff there. While a lot of people even in this thread insist it's more of the same religion-based uprisings (much like in Iran's past etc) many of the protestors themselves seem to insist their cause is secular in nature.

I wonder who to believe?

Bahrain is about religion, Sunni against Shia.

Libya is tribal.

While the Arab World is split Israel is safe.

CDSmith · 02-20-2011, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Well it seems you don't have the back bone that the Palestinians have. They won't march off to where ever to please the Jews. Fighting with an army won't work, fighting with oil power will.

If the Arab World gang up and use their oil power do you propose the Jews should just pack their bags and move out?

Of course when you open your doors to a family of Palestinians, or donate a ton of money to them being resettled we will take you seriously. Or should they just Fuck Off to anywhere but near Winnipeg and not expect any help from you?

I'm not sure where all this attitude is coming from Paul.

But okay, point by point, here it is: "marching off" and "having no backbone" -- well, would you say all the people from Kosovo who ran for their lives and later emigrated to Canada are all spineless cowards for moving away from their homeland in search of a better safer life?

Think before answering.

You put a lot of faith in "oil", maybe too much? If as you say all the Arab nations were to gang up on Israel in attempts to oust them from the ME I can tell you it would be the start of WWIII and in all likelyhood the end of all of us. The US isn't going to sit idly by, you know that. Neither would it's allies, the UK, France, Canada, AUS, etc. And of course then Russia and China and a few others would have to take part.

What a wonderful suggestion there Paul.

As to your last and most ignorant statement to me to date I'll say this: You obviously don't know Winnipeggers. During that aforementioned Kosovo crisis for example we collectively donated tons of aid money, items, blankets, etc. And yes, many people here opened their doors to regugees, not just here but all over Canada. I had a few of them in my computer training course back in the late 90's and gave rides to and from their home to a few of them on many occasions.

But as to the Palestinians, their situation isn't the same as that of Kosovo is it? They aren't all innocent refugees with no place to go are they? Perhaps if back in the 70's and 80's they had just left Israel alone things would be different today? I don't know, I'm asking. Perhaps if there'd been less fighting going on all those years and less suicide bombings and terrorist attacks we'd have a slightly different-looking map of the region today? You tell me, you seem to be the expert.

The one given that remains is that Israel isn't going anywhere. You either accept it and deal with them or you eventually start a war.

Or keep the petty bickering going for another 30 years, the Palestinians continually attacking and provoking, the Israelis nipping away more and more land in attempts to shrink the problem.

You seem to argue for more war. I'm arguing for peace. Your argument just perpetuates and advocates further hatred. Mine supports putting aside past grievances and the notion of getting down to finding more equitable solutions.

Personally I'd have liked to have seen Israel offer to let all Palestinians live within it's borders in the same manner they're accustomed to, as equal citizens of their country. But that's never been possible has it Paul? Why? Because of the hatred. How can you trust people who hate you enough to kill you? Answer is: you can't.

I gave you one snide remark at me Paul, don't let there be another.

Cheers. :D

Barry-xlovecam · 02-20-2011, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

...

While the Arab World is split Israel is safe.

1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 They got their collective asses kicked each time.

02-20-2011, 05:08 AM	#53
CDSmith Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: My network is hosted at TECHIEMEDIA.net ...Wait, you meant where am I located at? Oh... okay, I'm in Winnipeg, Canada. Oops. :) Posts: 51,460	In today's NY Times: MANAMA, Bahrain — Thousands of jubilant protesters surged back into the symbolic heart of Bahrain on Saturday as the government withdrew its security forces, calling for calm after days of violent crackdowns. It was a remarkable turn after a week of protests that had shifted by the hour between joy and fear, euphoric surges of people power followed by bloody military crackdowns, as the monarchy struggled to calibrate a response to an uprising whose counterparts have toppled other governments in the region. “All Bahrain is happy today,” said Jasim al-Haiki, 24, as he cheered the crowds in the central Pearl Square, aflutter with Bahraini flags. “These are Bahrainis. They do what they say they will do!” The shift in this tiny Persian Gulf nation, a strategic American ally, was at least a temporary victory for the Shiite protesters, who had rejected a call to negotiate from Bahrain’s Sunni monarch until the authorities pulled the military off the streets. But the events here were being watched with trepidation in neighboring Saudi Arabia, an adjacent Sunni monarchy with a restive Shiite population, and rippling across the region, where an extraordinary few weeks of antigovernment protests have ricocheted from northwest Africa to the Middle East. Antigovernment demonstrations erupted again on Saturday in Libya, Algeria and Yemen, with each of those governments turning to violence to stop the protests. The worst carnage was in Libya, where security forces fired on protesters in Benghazi, the country’s second-largest city, killing dozens and pushing the death toll after three days of demonstrations to over 100. In Algiers, protesters were quickly routed by hundreds of baton-wielding police officers. In Yemen, after both sides clashed in a hail of bottles, shoes and rocks, government supporters opened fire on antigovernment demonstrators, wounding at least four. In Bahrain, the day started out with a lull, as both sides appeared to have been rattled by the violence of the past week, in which at least seven people were killed. The leaders of the major opposition parties called off the protests for Saturday, telling the public to stay home in an effort to lower the temperature. But in what appeared to be a measure of who controls the movement now, the people ignored their ostensible leaders. Marchers set out from villages and the city center and by midday converged on Pearl Square. The police met them with tear gas and rubber bullets. Young men collapsed in the road and others ran for cover, but people kept coming. The police fired again. Then the government blinked, perhaps sensing that the only way to calm a spiral of violence that claimed more lives with each passing day was to cede the square to the protesters. The police left so suddenly and so completely that it took a minute for the protesters, still rubbing the tear gas out of their eyes, to realize they once again controlled the square. By early evening, tens of thousands of people were pouring into the square, waving flags, some dropping to the ground to pray, and others shouting congratulations to each other. Marching past pools of blood on the road, they savored a moment of bittersweet jubilation, a mix of disbelief and sheer joy that they had prevailed, tempered with sadness for those who had been killed. “Of course we are happy,” said Hassan al-Freidi, 53. “But I want to tell you: not yet. Today we’re mourning and honoring our martyrs; it is about joy and mourning. But it’ll only be about joy when we get our rights. And I know this day will come. Bullets do not scare us.” The protesters won the battle on Saturday, although it was still not clear where it would all lead. The government had relinquished the square before, on Wednesday, only to return with a deadly assault on Thursday. On Friday, the army opened fire on a group of about 1,000 peaceful demonstrators trying to walk into the square. ..... To the north, Kuwait also has a Sunni monarchy and a restive Shiite population. The big fear among Sunni governments is that Bahrain, once part of Persia, could become another Iran, where the Islamic revolution of 1979 produced a bellicose Shiite theocracy. But the Shiite protesters here insist their revolt is secular and democratic. When the protests started on Feb. 14, in a so-called Day of Rage modeled after events in Egypt and Tunisia, demonstrators called for a constitutional monarchy, an elected cabinet and a constitution written by the people, as opposed to one imposed by the king. After two protesters were killed in the first two days, both shot in the back by the police, an infuriated and reinvigorated opposition added a new demand: an end to the monarchy. Interesting stuff there. While a lot of people even in this thread insist it's more of the same religion-based uprisings (much like in Iran's past etc) many of the protestors themselves seem to insist their cause is secular in nature. I wonder who to believe? __________________ *Promote Wildmatch, ImLive, Sexier.com, and more!!* ALWAYS THE HIGHEST PAYOUTS: Big Bux/ImLive SIGNUP ON NOW!!! Put some PUSSYCA$H in your pocket. ICQ me at: 31024634