PR_Glen

I ran into an article on this the other day saying that Bill Clinton is on a complete vegan diet now and supposedly it is working and reversing his issues with heart disease.

Another article today explaining it here:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/08/19...tml?&hpt=hp_c2


I'm not a proponent of dieting in general, but I'm curious what some of you think about this diet. It eliminates all meats, eggs, dairy and most oils. I honestly don't believe I could ever do it.. but I also don't think most vegans look very healthy to me either.. even Clinton himself looks worn down and frail...

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Pornopat

I have eliminated meat and fish.
I think I look healthy.

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DoubleD

ah damn, so long as he's not preachy about it...I hate hanging out with vegans or veg-heads half the time as its all they talk about - either for health or social/animal rights issues...god damn it people, I don't care what you eat has no effect on me.

ah, now that my Friday, coffee-fueled rant is done, I rteally think its all about moderation - and I totally agree as a society, especially the west eats way too much meat...many have it with every single meal...our bodies we're not built for that and we're seeing the effects.

If folks even limited themselves to having meat even 7 or 8 times a week - depending on whe're you're from your ancestors even 50 yars ago probably didnt have a fraction of the meat you're eating now (im not talkin cock here...and yes I know where I'm posting this lol)

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PR_Glen

yeah you don't look emaciated like a lot of vegans i have known so you must be doing something right hehe

no dairy would hurt a lot for me though... replacing that calcium is NOT easy.

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brassmonkey

bad health

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L-Pink

He needs to have that 200 pound tumor/secretary of state removed.

maxxtro

Most diets work. Go vegan if you wanna lose weight and starve all day. Go for low carb-high fat if you wanna lose weight without starving.

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BlackCrayon

i think the key is to starve yourself of cholestoral.

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DoubleD

ah damn, well when I was 12 I was at least 50lbs heavier than I am now...probably 60lbs...the doctor said I had high cholestoral (I probably had the cholestoral count of a small village)

I basically had to give up butter, didnt go for some of them nice fatty burgers, it sucked ass but it did work...didn't get me laid any more in high school, but hey

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barcodes

You can buy iron pills and I think centrum has b12 in it to replace some of the stuff you get from meat.

They have calcium supplements you can try as well.
http://www.amazon.com/Adora-Calcium-.../dp/B000OQ66MQ

wehateporn

Without a doubt getting rid of the meat and dairy does you a world of good, I'm not going to give up my eggs though

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PR_Glen

most diets work? I don't know too many that have ever said that.. hehe I would agree that most work for the short term though.

sounds about right, but there are good forms of cholesterol too are there not? Are these not cut out as well? I've read some new studies not long ago saying the problem isn't even cholesterol itself it is actually inflammation that is the bigger issue. Interesting idea anyway.

yes, i am aware of the supplements that can be taken to help balance things out, but can taking these supplements really be a healthier solution to getting it from real food? Some even argue that taking vitamins is more or less ineffective and just washes through you. I'm on the fence with it myself though, i never really had evidence either way in my experience with them.

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maxxtro

Short term, yes. But who wants to starve every day for the rest of their lives? Thats why you need to go for a low carb diet and stick with it.
http://www.dietdoctor.com/how-to-los...without-hunger

http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf

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BlackCrayon

Yeah I don't know, there is good cholesteral too. Its just something I read and going by the nations they indicate don't have heart attack problems, I'd imagine they do not overeat or are often very full.

in regards to suppliments, i've always felt the same way. i take daily multivitamin but am unsure of its effectiveness. I would think if you have to take supplements because your diet is not providing the proper nutrition that going vegan is not a way to be naturally healthy.

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TheSquealer

It's pointless to argue with anyone because its more about personality, cult like stubbornness and personal views than it is about biochemistry and physiology... but the simple fact is that its extremely difficult to meet a bodies energy/protein requirements/needs with a vegan diet. Particularly when being active. Not saying it can't be done. I'm saying people typically don't do it or won't do it. That's why they look unhealthy, have bad hair and so on.

Further, the energy yield from fibrous veggies is about 25% of what it is from simple carbs. Your body has a very hard time turning fiber into energy. Thats why you can be on a low carb diet and eat all the asparagus and broccoli you want as it won't cause an insulin response no matter how much you eat. When that is the staple of your diet, then... you don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand why rapid weight loss occurs. It's called starvation.

It's also worth pointing out that "looking healthy" is about what you've done over a long period of time and exercise, supplements, genetics and so on. Because Bob "looks good" snorting heroin this week, or eating a certain way, doesn't mean a vegan diet is either the cause of him looking good that he won't soon be looking bad in the future as his body deals with severe calorie restriction, protein / fat deficiencies and so on.

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Tom_PM

It's always good to see someone talking about nutrition and prevention when you're healthy rather than surgery or drugs once you're half dead.

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Chosen

I think vegetarian diet is good.
However vegan diet sucks...

TheSquealer

You should be taking supplements no matter how you are eating. When you actually take a hard look at your daily vitamin/mineral requirements and the content of those in the foods you eat, its almost impossible to get it from food unless you a very well planned diet and stick to it. most foods (fruits,veggies etc) tend to be high in one thing and have almost nothing of others. So for vitamins alone, you would have to continually eat a large variety of fruits / veggies to meet your daily requirements/needs.

Ideally, a person should be eating whole/natural foods, whole grains, organic everything (no i'm not a hippy - not even close) and be taking a wide range of supplements to be certain you are getting more than you need in terms of vitamins and minerals - which basically regulate every process in your body in one way or another right down to the cellular level.

Of course, we all eat like retards, take shortcuts and rationalize why its really ok to make bad decisions. Thats all fine and good until you have cancer or Alzheimers or anything else.

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purescotty

Exactly.

lazycash

Agree completely, particularly regarding the cumulative effects of a certain lifestyle if its not balanced. I've met vegans who did seem frail and I've played sports with others who supplemented with protein and were in incredible shape and very healthy looking.

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PR_Glen

Some very good points in here. I agree completely with the part in red especially. I have believed this for years. My only problem with that is I have seen endurance athletes, cyclists, triathletes (even iron man), and marathon runners who are on vegan diets and seem to be doing well on them. I still think they look more emaciated than the rest of us, but this could just be my opinion.

As for low carb diets, i have tried a number of them over the years and I often have the same problems with them. Loading your body with nothing but complex carbs and eating heavy on the proteins just sucks the energy out of me completely... The last one i did was the slow carb diet explained in the book The 4 hour body. The first two days on it i had headaches, serious drowsiness, so much that i could barely keep my head up and by the time i got home at 5 o'clock i was so tired i hit the bed and didn't wake up until morning. I think my reaction is an extreme one, but it is a perfect example of what happens when the body is low on fuel (carbs). I wasn't working out on this diet either, if i was i would have dropped weights on my head in the gym...

What works for me now is the non diet lots of exercise plan. I aim for healthier foods and keep down the junk foods as best i can and add more protein after workouts. It's a slower process, because the weight isn't going to fly off you as fast as it would if i was eating nothing but chicken and broccoli, but I'll tell you it's one hell of a lot easier to maintain and with the muscle growth I get from the weight training it makes the yo-yo on the lbs almost non existent...

good discussion here everyone.. hope to read more thoughts on this.

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bronco67

Nutrition is almost everything, when it comes to your health.

My mother in law has recovered from cancer(with Chemotherapy), but I could never convince her that she could probably have prevented it, and could keep it away in the future by eating greens, greens and more greens(fruit also). Her husband the doctor believes in medicine, and like other doctors is brainwashed into treating the effects of disease, rather than the root cause.

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adultsitecms

So does that means he stops eating pussy?

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wehateporn

Very hard to convince these people. I'm always trying to tell the Mrs to use Bee Propolis to stop herself catching flu, but she'll say "Oh I'll have some paracetamol if I catch one"

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PR_Glen

Yeah, it is an unfortunate truth that people want quick fixes to everything and if they can fix it with meds they don't care about the consequences... My gf parents for example. They only see doctors for depression meds and pain killers.. these are everyday people, not drug addicts but neither of them have ANY interest in eating healthier, or trying to get their blood pressure to a non lethal number or anything else that will help them live past 50. These are not old people yet they are aging 3 fold and a lot of that has to do with their diet. Avoiding doctors can kill you quick fast too by the way. I'd be dead already if I didn't get on top of my high blood pressure problem.

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bronco67

Doctors are important, of course, but we wouldn't be in this health care crisis bullshit if the US basic diet wasn't full of preservatives and sugar -- and millions of people with no desire to educate themselves about how to stay healthy by changing the foods they slam into their face holes.

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Yo Adrian

I read that article yesterday.. it was alright, BUT.. the comments were comedy. "Monica was no vegan" LOL

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TheSquealer

The problem is your brain switching between glucose as a fuel source and ketones (acetoacetate and β-hydroxybutyrate ) as a primary fuel source for the brain. It takes some time to adapt for most people - usually 2 weeks. That is where the lethargy, brain fog, inability to focus, concentrate etc come from. Once you get through that and assuming you are in ketosis, you should feel very good and energy levels should be consistent and stable throughout the day. The only way they wouldn't be or what would cause that to not be true is if you were eating enough to trigger an insulin response, getting out of ketosis and continually switching back and forth. Ketogenic diets are very much an "all or nothing" deal. Too many people (not you necessarily) don't get that and end up eating crazy amounts of calories and fats but not be in ketosis, jack their cholesterol up etc.

The primary benefit of a ketogenic diet is that you can severely restrict calories, lose weight and preserve muscle while maintaining stable energy levels. Ironically THE EXACT SAME CLAIMS of HCG diets (sorry kids, HCG does nothing for weight loss) and when people are following Simeons original diet it's tricky because it is also a Ketogenic diet although not advertised as such. The problem with restricting your calories to 500 a day and "cheating" occasionally eating too many carbs is that your energy levels go nuts as you go out of ketosis, cravings start to run away, brain function is again impaired, you start catabolizing muscle for energy in the absence of adequate glycogen stores, start losing muscle etc. People tend to do the same with ketogenic diets.

At the end of the day, what "works" is highly individualistic. I mean, its about what an individual can stick with as you''ve found.

4 Hour Body? Tim Ferris in my view is a con artist. He lucked into writing a book that became popular. The book was about obvious (and oftentimes impossible) concepts for time management.. he's been nothing but a snake oil salesperson since then. His original pitch for that 4 Hour Body book was that he lost XX lbs and gained XX pounds of lean mass in like 4 weeks by "hacking his body" - the guy is a fucking moron and nothing he claimed in his original marketing is even remotely possible, not even possible assuming you have perfect genes and a good drug hookup, enough needles and a hardy liver. This guy is trying to be Kevin Trudeau and he's well on his way (to being arrested and convicted and fined)... just my opinion.

Peace

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PR_Glen

yeah, i thought there were a lot of good ideas in there and he keeps the reader pretty interested by making himself the guinea pig with these things but I knew there was a level of bullshit in his results.

I had blood work done about 2 weeks into the diet and my doctor was asking me what the hell i was doing, because my cholesterol was through the roof (normally it is fine) and my uric acid levels were pretty high as well. I'm still not completely convinced that cholesterol is a problem but the rapid changes i wasn't comfortable with so that's when i canned it. As you said I was probably eating more than i should.

thoughts on ketosis... how can you stay on it? Never eating fruit? Never picking up a slice of pizza again? Never having pasta? I agree that foods like this have a lot of sugars in them and in excess lead to weight gain but cutting them out completely wouldn't make life very enjoyable in most peoples opinions I'm sure.

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PR_Glen

I should mention the only supplement I am currently taking right now, and the only one i plan on using is whey protein. It is essential to get your protein levels high enough so that you get maximum gains from each workout. You will see me battle with people on the overuse of supplements I'm sure but this is one that I have been using for years without a problem and would recommend to everyone.

I also wanted to post a good site for healing foods. whfoods.com This site is loaded with info on foods that prevent many different forms of illnesses and they are all foods you can find in your local supermarket. I post this one all over the place with hopes that it can help others in finding healthier solutions for avoiding diseases and hopefully even living longer ;)

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bronco67

If you want to make your gains even better, use a green drink supplement also.

http://www.amazon.com/Garden-Life-Pe...3784236&sr=8-2

Some realy good stuff in there...look at the ingredients:

Perfect Green Juice Blend (5040 Mg): Barley Grass (Organic Juice and Solubles), Organic Alfalfa Grass Juice, Organic Wheat Grass Juice, Organic Oat Grass Juice. Perfect Protein Mineral Blend (3300 Mg): Spirulina, Rice Bran Soluble Extract, Chlorella, Calcified Red Algae, Various Kelp Species. Poten-zyme Whole Food Matrix (1200 Mg): Barley Grass, Oat Grass, Wheat Grass, Alfalfa Grass, Organic Amaranth, Organic Quinoa, Organic Millet, Adzuki Bean, Organic Buckwheat, Garbanzo Beans, Kidney Beans, Lentils, Flax Seeds, Sunflower Seeds, Pumpkin Seeds, Chia Seeds, Sesame Seeds. Acerola Cherry Extract (300 Mg). Perfect Veggie Blend (160 Mg): Organic Beet, Organic Carrot, Organic Broccoli, Cucumber, Organic Tomato, Kale, Organic Spinach, Cabbage, Cauliflower, Celery, Parsley, Asparagus, Brussels Sprouts, Bell Pepper, Garlic, Ginger, Onion. Stevia (10 Mg). Other Ingredients: Probiotic Cultures.

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TheSquealer

Your appetite largely disappears.

Multivitamins should always be a part of ones daily routine no matter what.

I take everyday:
Multivitamin
B Complex
C
D3
Calcium
Flax seed oil
Glucosamine
BFAA's

- the things you've described as "chemicals" to which i would respond "these chemical compounds regulate every single process and function in your body and fail to do so, when one is deficient"

Your cravings disappear (largely a product of insulin highs and lows which becomes a non-issue in ketosis). Once you stop thinking about food, its easier to keep to a strict plan.

I mean people could also think "how can i live without ice cream and cake and cookies" while they are trying to diet and depending on how they are eating/exercising, cravings for those things can be quite intense. From experience, i can tell you "intense" in the sense that you can't think about anything else and then when you eat that stuff, you get high - a sort of euphoric feeling.

Bottom line... I tell people the same thing everyday "you will never lose weight and achieve your goals without some degree of discomfort. Pills/stimulants/appetite suppressants make you jittery, less food makes you hungry, running is no fun, lifting weights is hard, eating well is a bitch and requires planning and effort and so on..".

You can eat fruit. Just very limited quantities and you really have to do the math and know what you are putting into your mouth because fructose in small quantities of course will cause an insulin response. Ideally, you want to be under 30 grams or so of carbs per day

Also, there is typically the weight loss part and the maintenance part. Hardcore calorie restriction to achieve weight loss goals, then slowly increase carbs up to 40-50 or so or whatever. A green apple is like 20 grams of carbs (some from fiber though). I guess its better looked at in the "fat loss" phase and "maintenance phase".. .fat loss is strict Ketosis and maintenance is just "less carbs" (no starches, sugars etc)

LL Cool J has been in ketosis for 5 years,... he says

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PR_Glen

I've looked at those before, they always seem very pricey to me... but I am cheap... hehe I'm sure it would help of course.

Do you not eat a lot of greens at home already?

I drink liquid chlorophyll all day here at work so I guess technically you can call that a supplement, but I think this one is closer to a tea than anything really..

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PR_Glen

I think we can all agree that ketosis is highly effective for weight loss--whether you can handle the side effects or not. The one other thing that concerns me with it, other than the food/hunger, is performance. Can you still have optimal performance for athletics? Can you do endurance races? I imagine you would have to modify these things before events I'm just curious on how effective it is with athletes. Despite my recent years of slacking I still remain very athletic so that is always a concern of mine as well.

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bronco67

I make green smoothies from frozen veggies + the green powder. When you look at the ingredient list on the Perfect Food, how difficult do you think it would be to take in all of that stuff by dietary arrangements and planning? That's a rhetorical question, BTW.

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kane

About 4 years ago, on a bet, I went Vegan for 90 days and ended up doing it for about 9 months. I ate whenever I wanted, as much as I wanted and lost weight, felt great and had tons of energy.

I took a multivitamin and got my protein from nuts and soy products like soy milk. The first few weeks are very difficult because your body is adjusting. I was tired and hungry and annoyed by it all. After that I got in to a groove and started feeling really good.

I ended up stopping it for two reasons: I missed meat and dairy. Sometimes you just want a pizza or a burger. The second reason is that it is a pain in the ass. There are very few things that are quick and easy to make and there is almost nowhere you can go out to dinner and order anything but a salad. It just got to be annoying after a while.

TheSquealer

the "side effects" are only for those few that feel it in the first 2 weeks of your brain adapting to a new fuel source

Sure, eat more calories. Your energy levels will be consistent. I have better stamina running long distance in ketosis (5miles anyway) than not. Your energy source is constant (dietary protein/fats and fat stores) and not dependent on blood sugar, stored glycogen levels.

I don't know how it could be "modified" in that sense. Either you are in Ketosis or you aren't. There is no middle ground. "ketosis refers to the ratio of glucagon vs insulin in the blood. so you can have "some carbs", but once you cause any sort of insulin response it will drive glucagon levels to nothing - shifting you back to normal glucose metabolism. That's what I meant with HCG and that kind of stuff where people are on the edge and consequences of shifting back and forth. It 100% or 0%.

I think people really underestimate how common this is now in Gyms and in bodybuilding. It was common in the 50's and people often poo pooed it and didnt even understand how/why it worked. Its a really huge thing for bodybuilders today,... meaning its gained substantial momentum in the last 10 years. You just can't gain muscle while in Ketosis. It's just a good way (in combination with restricted calories and drugs) to cut without losing hard earned muscle and being constantly depleted, grumpy/irritable and tired.

I think that if anyone is asked to choose between glucose metabolism and ketone metabolism for long distance athletics, they are going to choose what everyone does. Personally, i feel much better running 5 miles when in Ketosis than not. Energy levels are very flat and consistent, i can easily zone out and get it done. When not in ketosis, it becomes a mental game for me, energy levels/emotions/feelings/sensations are all over the place and its a struggle.

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bronco67

I have to admit, I feel like a little bitch when I go without a big juicy burger or steak for long periods.

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PR_Glen

by modified I meant adding some more carbs to your diet before competitions and such, or would you not do that even?


back to the vegan thing, i too would struggle. I love cooking too much to be able to do it. Ribs, burgers.. anything on the bbq really.. Just have to have it. I just try not to over do it with the red meats lately.

some good thoughts and perspectives in this thread for sure...

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TheSquealer

Well... it would be all or nothing. The wiggle room you have is 30-40gr max. After that you will be out of ketosis. Carbs play no real role in energy in ketosis, its coming from fat stores/dietary fat/dietary protein and what little carbs you eat. But if you go over say 40gr, you may as well just eat a bunch, carb up, rehydrate yourself and do the event. Otherwise, there is no benefit to eating 40gr of carbs as opposed to 20gr to compete because that isn't the primary source of fuel for your body.


I couldn't do it either. First, I love meat. Second, I hate hippies. Lose/Lose for me

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TheSquealer

Actually Glen, I read what I wrote and realized I answered it without answering. The biggest problem (i would guess) in long distance running, would be hydration. Your body will not store much water as glycogen/water are stored together. Depleted glycogen stores in muscles leads to less water retention. There is a ratio of water storage:glycogen in muscle cells. I think its 3 grams water:1 gram glycogen or something close. So with depleted glycogen stores, your ability to retain/store water in cells for ready use is retarded somewhat. Also, water you drink will simply be pissed back out. This is part of the reason for carbing up. Also part of the reason for replacing electrolytes. I don't really know what would happen if you just sat and ate a 1/2 a cup of salt and drank a lot of water while in Ketosis. Water tends to be osmotic and passes through cell walls fairly easily as its transported through your blood stream, but i'm guessing it wouldn't help enough, fast enough. You can try it! When you get an intense headache and your skin is suddenly rubbery and losing its elasticity... just stop running and drink water

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Jarmusch

Vitamin B12 is needed for many vital functions in humans.

Vitamin B12 can be found in animal products.

Therefore it makes perfect sense that we should be avoiding animal products and be consuming vitamin B12 in pill form.

My Pimp

This is suprising.

campimp

i eliminated meat a few months ago, keeping the fish though... definitely feel healthier, but its all mental im sure at this point

stinkyfingers

good for him. god bless, vegetarian cuisine is pretty tasty with fish

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