12clicks

dear unemployed half wit, the topic of this thread is about warren buffett stretching the truth. My facts from the CBO prove that he is. Please let the adults discuss the topic.

Now I know that you resent me because I'm successful and you're a hanger on in this business. I understand that being mentally challenged, you couldn't shift with the business. its ok son, this biz isn't for everyone. just wink out like the rest of your kind. pissing up at me won't get you a job.

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Minte

In the sales game this strategy is.... If you can't wow them with the facts. Blind them with bullshit.
Mr. Clicks has clearly run successful businesses. And anyone that posts here knows that. What is it you have done that we aren't aware of.

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12clicks

oh look, another unemployed know it all coming in to explain the CBO's numbers are wrong.

son, no matter how much the government takes from your betters, than money will never make it into your hands.

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TheDoc

Oh look more lame twists, waahhhhhhh I didn't follow 12cunts rules, what a little bitch..

No Those Numbers Do Not Prove That, you're too damn stupid to understand how any of this works. wow, wow, and wow.. you REALLY are that stupid. HAHAHAHAHAHA.

What a poser, I'm a big daddy, telling mr buffet he's wrong... I'm his upper, what a loser.

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12clicks

and the unemployed monkey continues to throw shit.

no surprise.

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TheDoc

I've made a shit ton more than 12cunts and I'm a good bit younger.

I owned Largecash, several other programs, content plugins, we've created technology still in use today, and have been doing this successfully, for 15 years now.

Plenty of others that spank my ass... but not that idiot.

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TheDoc

Huh? Yeah I guess I'm unemployed... as in, I haven't worked for someone else in like 15 years?

I know your brain is in backwards, but most of us here are business owners....

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directfiesta

We require proof when accusations are made around here. Saying go look it up on the interwebs is not proof. Show clear and concise proof, not hearsay, proof unless you would like a vacation!

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I know that Asspimple is stoopid ... As he says, it is a FACT !

But I can't figure out how he can breathe or type , at the same time ....

12clicks

ahahaha!

all that brilliance and the only thing you dare name is a parked domain.

yes, son, you're doing great!

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Relentless

Actually Ronald it's 'unemployed know it all' Warren Buffet who has explained your numbers are wrong.
And you prattling on arguing with him about an amount and a tax policy problem that you personally will never reach.

TheDoc keeps pointing out that we have a graduated tax bracket system where we all pay an identical rate on the money we earn at each level of taxation. The guy earning 18K doesn't pay any more or any less than you, me, or Warren buffet on our first 18K and so on up through each bracket. He is correct, though he does a poor job of explaining it.

The simple fact is that the bracket 'tax rates' have become meaningless.
What matters are the actual tax rates people are paying on their income.
When deductions and loopholes allow people to reduce their actual tax rate to the lowest bracket from the highest bracket... Who cares what the brackets are listed at?
An absolute tax rate that capped all deductions and loopholes is a simple and effective fix for the problem.
If the defined bracket was stated instead as 'starting at 35% but never less than 30% regardless of deductions' the gamesmanship would be curtailed and we would begin to have much more meaningful discussions about tax policy because the rates would matter. As it is now, a large percentage of people aren't paying their rate and could care less what it became. If the highest bracket suddenly went to 99% you would still see Warren Buffet paying close to 17% because the bracket has little bearing on his taxation.

12clicks

dear unemployed know it all.
in the facts below, you'll note that the CBO numbers are "effective tax rates"
for those of you without the intelligence to hold a job, I'll explain that that means "what is actually paid"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...d0iK_blog.html

When you add up all of the various taxes, and look at the effective tax rates, it is clear the tax system is already pretty progressive. Everyone pays some tax, even those who pay no federal income taxes, and the wealthiest pay a larger percentage share of taxes. Here?s the effective tax rate for all of the groups, according to the CBO:
Lowest quintile (23.4 million taxpayers), zero to $18,900: 4.3 percent
Second lowest quintile (22.4 million), $18,900-$32,100: 10.2 percent
Middle quintile (22.9 million), $32,100-$47,400: 14.2 percent
Fourth quintile (23 million), $47,400-$71,200: 17.6 percent
Highest quintile (23.6 million), above $71,200: 25.8 percent
Top 10 percent (12 million), minimum income of $98,100: 27.5 percent
Top 5 percent (5.9 million), minimum income of $134,400: 29 percent
Top 1 percent (1.1 million), minimum income of $332,300: 31.2 percent

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12clicks

you can tell who's never made money on this board by the amount of myths they believe

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Relentless

Again Ronald, post the numbers for the top .01% and for the top 400

Top 1% is 380K income
Top .01% is 6M income

They have nothing to do with each other

Thanks.

12clicks

sorry chump, in the world of the unemployed I'm sure you have a point but the top 400 earners paid on average over $45 million dollars each in taxes.
In your pathetic world where you pay ZERO income tax, you'd think you'd have just the tiniest bit of class and intelligence to understand that someone paying $45 million for the same thing you get for free, is most certainly enough.
Its not the top who is the problem, its you, the leeching bottom that is the problem.

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Relentless

So Ronald...

If the 'average' person in the top .01% paid 35%
and someone, or several someones in the top .01% paid 16%
the harm of having a rule that anyone in the top 1% must pay an absolute minimum of 30% would be?

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12clicks

envy is no way to go thru life, son.

When you add up all of the various taxes, and look at the effective tax rates, it is clear the tax system is already pretty progressive. Everyone pays some tax, even those who pay no federal income taxes, and the wealthiest pay a larger percentage share of taxes. Here?s the effective tax rate for all of the groups, according to the CBO:
Lowest quintile (23.4 million taxpayers), zero to $18,900: 4.3 percent
Second lowest quintile (22.4 million), $18,900-$32,100: 10.2 percent
Middle quintile (22.9 million), $32,100-$47,400: 14.2 percent
Fourth quintile (23 million), $47,400-$71,200: 17.6 percent
Highest quintile (23.6 million), above $71,200: 25.8 percent
Top 10 percent (12 million), minimum income of $98,100: 27.5 percent
Top 5 percent (5.9 million), minimum income of $134,400: 29 percent
Top 1 percent (1.1 million), minimum income of $332,300: 31.2 percent

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Relentless

Also Ronald, if you want to lie, at least be clever enough not to say things that contradict the article YOU posted.

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Relentless

You keep trying to talk about the 'average' tax rate of a bracket, which is meaningless. We agree the guy who *actually* pays 30%+ of his income is not being under-taxed. The point is that the guys paying 16%, who should be paying 30%+ are being under-taxed by the current system as compared to the people *actually* paying the proscribed tax bracket rates or close to them.

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12clicks

dear idiot, I just explained how the top 400 pay an average of over $45 million per person while you pay zero. The article backs that up. are the numbers too big for you to understand?
here, I'll dumb it down for you. $19.5 billion/400=$48.75 million.

If I were you, as an adult male in society, I'd be embarrassed to the point of sickness to contribute ZERO income tax and dare complain that people paying $48 million a year are somehow not paying enough.

The only one not paying enough is you.

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Relentless

Always a pleasure chatting with you Ronald. Anyone reading the thread can see clearly that people making 8-9M+ per year are paying 18% on average while people earning 100-300K per year are paying nearly twice that rate.

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TheDoc

Okay? Does it look registered to me anymore? Use you brain idiot.... and yeah, it has a history, it has its name, and it's a name you even know.. ass hat.

I would love to see the list of your projects that made 10's of millions of dollars.

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12clicks

lets all sing along.........beautiful dreamer wake unto me.......

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Tom_PM

Is the premise supposed to be that nobody should stretch truths in political speech?

That premise has been placed on permanent fail.

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43-922-863 Shut up and play your guitar.

12clicks

off to the unemployment line?

When you add up all of the various taxes, and look at the effective tax rates, it is clear the tax system is already pretty progressive. Everyone pays some tax, even those who pay no federal income taxes, and the wealthiest pay a larger percentage share of taxes. Here?s the effective tax rate for all of the groups, according to the CBO:
Lowest quintile (23.4 million taxpayers), zero to $18,900: 4.3 percent
Second lowest quintile (22.4 million), $18,900-$32,100: 10.2 percent
Middle quintile (22.9 million), $32,100-$47,400: 14.2 percent
Fourth quintile (23 million), $47,400-$71,200: 17.6 percent
Highest quintile (23.6 million), above $71,200: 25.8 percent
Top 10 percent (12 million), minimum income of $98,100: 27.5 percent
Top 5 percent (5.9 million), minimum income of $134,400: 29 percent
Top 1 percent (1.1 million), minimum income of $332,300: 31.2 percent

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TheDoc

I hate rainy days in your area... your stupidity flow never stops those days.

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12clicks

stop pretending to be in our business and go find a job. you'll never hear from me again.
even the canadian unemployment checks end eventually.

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Relentless

Ronald,

Repeating your incorrect nonsense does not make it 'truer' than it was the first time you typed it. It just shows you are unable to escape the prerecorded narrative already playing in your head like a scratched record.

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12clicks

hahaha, the unemployed loser paying zero income tax but bitching about people who pay $48 million a year calls CBO's numbers "incorrect nonsense".

son, being a 40something lifetime loser may have made you bitter but it will never make you right.

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TheSquealer

Hate to be the one to break it to you sport, but that is always true and the same can be said of BOTH sides.

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.
Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

12clicks

the last time we legislated out of envy, we destroyed the American yacht building industry.
It put Americans out of work and yachts were just built and bought over seas.

this is what happens when the rabble tail is allowed to wag the economic dog.

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TheSquealer

Clinton's luxury tax, which he was forced to rescind didn't just affect yachts and boats. It instantly sank luxury car sales, art sales, jewelry sales, private airplane sales and so on. Everything the tax touched caused a massive reduction in demand for those items. The impact was immediate and massive for within months was forcing large producers to start cutting staff and laying people off.

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.
Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

12clicks

and that was the last time we had a dem president. now we have obama trying to stir up envy for the same reasoning of raising taxes.

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bronco67

I hate that song Margaritaville....

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TheSquealer

Well, this is what we have. 2 parties... one branded as the "big business and wealthy people are bad and we are on the side of the little guy" party. One as the "let business conduct business and let people create wealth" party. Both have to demonize the policies of the other. No ones minds will be changed.

It's not a question of logic or reason or making the better argument. It's a simple question of right brain vs left brain thinking. You won't turn an artist into a mathematician by explaining the merits of math with any greater probability than you will in attempting to turn a mathematician into an artist by explaining the merits of art.

It all boils down to how each persons brain perceives and processes and interprets the world around them, with each coming to radically different understandings and perceptions of "reality" and creating that individuals bias towards that perception. Each side believes that they "see all the facts, and they are so clear", believe that it is an objective reality, rather than subjective and inevitably leaves him/her with the only logical conclusion, that the other side has to be wrong and they "don't get it" because they don't perceive things in the same way they do. The arrogant conclusion of a simplistic mind.

The interesting thing about debating these things is that they aren't debates. It's two sides stubbornly trying to prove something to the other who is equally intent on proving their side - where neither side is receptive to the others view.

At the end of it all, the core purpose of these conversations is not to convince others of anything, but is actually rooted in each individuals innate need to continually reaffirm ones own beliefs.

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.
Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

TheDoc

Ouch... says the man with zero traffic and zero sales what a pathetic poser.

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Minte

When a private citizen is willing to invest his/her money in municipal bonds they are already doing something very good for their community. There are a few people that will do things like that only because they are civic minded and do care... or they want a statue of themselves built at the local library.

Local bonds for business is a really good thing. We have used them to invest in some machinery. Anyone that has the money to do it should be rewarded by not paying income tax. I know that this money could be invested elsewhere for a lot better return and less risk than in bonds.

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Relentless

I don't believe that for a minute, if you do... Why ever post anything?

There are open minded people on each side capable of changing their point of view on something. Their are also independents and most of them are lurkers. When these discussions started, on this board and others, Minte and I were very far from seeing eye to eye on just about any issue. Now, after several discussions, it seems we are pretty close to full agreement on both the revenue and spending sides of the equation.

Ronald and some on the 'opposite side' will never change their minds about anything or have a real discussion aimed at reaching consensus. I don't reply to him for his sake, I do so because he is a useful foil for bringing out and debunking the standard talking points of his ideology. It used to a also be an excellent source of revenue, but that was more because of the way he personally attacks people than the positions he frequently espouses.

Discussion does have value. Anyone who thinks it doesn't is clearly wasting their time, and the tine of others, by disingenuously being part of one.

Relentless

Im all for a tax benefit on those investments... with a limit.
Reducing your tax burden by 5 or perhaps 10 percent by using your money to benfit society is a plausible goal.
Reducing it by 20 or 30 percent is abusive.

It works the same way on the sales tax arena where tax policy can be a useful incentive.
Soda should be taxed more than water, fast food more than supermarket vegetables.
Taxes can and should be used to encourage or discourage behavior.
If they tax soda 10% more than bottled water that makes some sense.
If they tax soda 80% more than water it stops making sense.

An 'absolute tax rate' that limits the total of all deductions, exclusions and credits to a minimum allowable rate is a simple and useful mechanism.

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12clicks

shit, I forgot I left a troll dangling.

if you knew ANYONE in the processing or banking world, they'd whisper in your ear to stop embarrassing yourself.

but you don't so you do.

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TheDoc

Oh god, only a moron like yourself would boast that you know people in processing and banking - in the porn Industry... haha, you really hit the mecca of achievements with this one.... Then after years of you using 3rd party processing you now think your the shit to move to netbilling... fuck man, you are a poser, beyond all others.

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Minte

I don't have enough knowledge or experience with financing municpal bonds to debate those numbers. I do know that in the large view,we really aren't talking about enough money to make a difference in reducing the national debt.

Moving back to the original topic. This administration is making this a class warfare issue to solidify his base. As far as a solution it's at best, weak.

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Robbie

That's not true. Maybe you're thinking of something else...but I'm thinking of a few years ago when checks were sent to everyone in the country. I don't even remember the amount now, it was something small like $50 or $500.

But they sent them to EVERYONE. And there was a huge debate amongst pundits all over the cable new networks about why people who paid no tax were somehow getting a "refund". Keep in mind this wasn't a "normal" yearly refund were most Americans get a refund. This was a one time special political stunt.

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-Robbie
ClaudiaMarie.Com

Minte

I think longevity in any business deserves some respect. I know how easy it is to make money.. I've also learned how difficult it is to keep making money.
If you are younger than Mr.Clicks that would make me wonder why retire so young. I am a bit older than Mr.Clicks and I couldn't even imagine retiring. It's too much fun.

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TheDoc

Everyone that got one was a tax payer... you had to be otherwise they had no idea who to pay. I understand this wasn't a refund, but it also wasn't a Payroll tax refund either. Yes, people that pay zero dollars in payroll taxes got one too... but that doesn't mean they paid no taxes at all, that was a complete myth put on by the media.

Bush did it to stimulate the eco I believe...

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Robbie

Just finished reading page 4.

I know that politicians and people on here who are ardent Democrats or Republicans like to argue about percentages paid.

But I'd like to say that if I ever had to write a check to the IRS for 7 figures I would be CRYING.
There should be a CAP on how much any individual has to pay in income taxes. They shouldn't be getting taxed MORE. They should be getting taxed less.

It's totally outrageous to have a few thousand people in this country paying the majority of the income tax while hundreds of millions reap the benefits.

I know that might sound "crazy" to some...but goddam it's unfair in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong...I'd love to be in the position to write a check for millions of dollars every year to the govt. But it's just not right.

That is just plain out robbery by our govt., and everybody arguing that the rich should pay even more is just plain out ignoring the fact that WASHINGTON DC IS FULL OF CROOKS AND CON MEN WHO ARE SPENDING THAT MONEY LIKE DRUNKEN SAILORS.

And their strategy is working perfectly: Create a fake idea that there really are two opposing "sides" (repub and dems). Get people caught up in it and choosing "sides" like it's a sports event and they are rooting for their team. Then while all of us suckers are out here arguing over things that the politicians CHOOSE us to argue over...they continue to spend TRILLIONS of dollars that give THEM more power and control over all of us.

This is a classic con game. And it's been working for a long time.
It's no different than any con or magic act: Distract and misdirect with one hand, while you do something unseen with the other.

Everyone in this country thinks their "team" is right. And the argument that means nothing rages on while the crooks in Washington continue stealing from us.

Think about it: When Bush was president, if he had suddenly supported every plan by the Dems...they would have still HATED him and attacked and voted him down.
Same with Obama today. If he suddenly completely agreed with every Republican position? They would immediately SWITCH positions and vote him down.

Don't believe me? Just look at the complete 180 degree flip flops that the members of the House and Senate have done according to whether there was a Repub or Dem in the White House.

It's a game guys. They are turning people on each other. Meanwhile, they don't feel ANY of the pain. They are rolling in OUR money.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

Relentless

We fully agree that these small changes would not be enough to overcome our national debt. These are simple incremental changes that promote fairness and do increase revenue to some measurable degree. The real fix is an overhaul as we have already agreed, but that doesn't make incremental improvements in the meantime a bad idea.

Speaking solely on a political level, and not on a policy level at all, the class warfare argument is one of the stronger ones available to their campaign. People who live in 400 square foot apartments and watch MTV Cribs all day probably do feel like they are being left out. If they don't argue class warfare they are left with the notion that unemployment is all their own fault. Obviously neither is solely true. There are people unemployed because they are lazy incompetent dumb-asses AND there are people unemployed because we dumped a trillion dollars in Iraq while bailing out banks, subsidizing oilmen and allowing unregulated 'businessmen' to screw the life out of the average citizen.

We should be discussing class warfare style rhetoric when it concerns people who took huge government handouts while paying themselves large bonuses after scamming the tax payer and the business community. We should be seeking fairness in our tax code (and in fact a whole new 3 page long tax code instead). On the other hand, that doesn't excuse anyone who bought a house they knew they couldn't afford, or thought 'showing up at work' was the same as working.

On a political level the rhetoric will carry the day rather than the policy facts, which is why the country has nobody to blame but itself. Most don't care enough to find facts, many who find facts can't understand them, most of those who do understand them use them to confuse the rest who do not. It's no wonder things have gone so badly in the last 12 years and very likely they will only get worse in the next 4 no matter who gets elected.

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TheDoc

I'm not retired.... I'm just not doing the same thing I once did.

I find it fun that I can move around, try different things, and just learn, learn, learn. Once I get tired of something, sell it off, and do something else or try it another way. I also like doing it for others, taking decent programs with great staff, and making them rock it like no other.... you're right, making money is easy, keeping it is another story all together.

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12clicks

nah, I do it for the sheer comedy of watching guys who've failed at multiple businesses like the mighty relentless, explain the economy, business, and taxation to those of us who haven't.
Its a guilty pleasure.

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12clicks

uh, as I said, if you knew anyone in banking or processing, you wouldn't embarrass yourself.

I used 3rd party processing for years? wow, I didn't know that.

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12clicks

let me guess, now you're trying the canadian unemployment thing.

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