chucklesnorris

I recently became aware that CCBill was paying me/reporting 5.11% less than what I was actually charging my customers (this is not holdback).

I am here to reach out to other webmasters who are unaware they may be being paid less and to see if this problem is limited to my account or extends to others.

I found out about this problem after a few months of charging exclusively in GBP currency. Through one of my customers I found out they were being charged the correct conversion rate between GBP to USD while I was being paid 5.11% less than the conversion rate/what they were being charged.

I verified this with several other customers and then finally charged myself to verify it.

For example:

1) Charge 19.99 GBP
2) CCBill charges credit card $31.13 (Precisely the correct conversion rate)
3) CCBill reports $29.53 (a difference of 5.11%)

*Note:
This does not include holdback or any bank transfer fees or currency conversion fees. I talked to my bank and verified this. They said if they did charge a fee it would be after the charge posted and would only be 16 cents (which I later verified happened).

What you should do:

If you charge in GBP or use GEO Currency and some customers get charged in GBP, I would highly suggest testing this out yourself. If this would have gone on for a year without noticing, there would have been a $2,500 "discrepancy" for me.

The most important thing to take note of is the amount charged on your credit card compared to the amount CCBill shows in your admin panel for the transaction.

You can also use one of these currency conversion calculators:

bloomberg.com/personal-finance/calculators/currency-converter/
xe.com
oanda.com
x-rates.com
gocurrency.com

None of the above currency converters will differ from one another by more than 1 penny or two.

This will also confirm that you are not "overcharging" your customers but instead are being underpaid by CCBill.

*Important note:
I have obviously contacted CCBill about this issue. According to them it has been reported as a "bug". I didn't hear from them in 5 days after jumping through loops to meet their requirements for reporting this. I talked to support today and could get nothing more than they "asked around" and would not commit to sending me an email today with any update. For all I know I could be waiting months. If this is a widespread issue with pressure from multiple webmasters I'm sure it will get fixed a lot faster than me bugging them every few days.

margarita

just currency conversion fee I guess

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chucklesnorris

Actually, no. CCBill already verified this as a "bug" according to at least 3 reps, 1 of which told me verbally via a voicemail.

margarita

Then I wonder where will extra money go after bug fix

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chucklesnorris

I asked for the "missing" funds and was told they were "pretty sure" I would be paid after it was fixed. I told them I don't care much of it getting fixed now as I'm back to charging in USD only but I do care about the money they have somewhere that should be in my bank account. Unless this is a brand new issue I'm surprised accounting didn't pick it up earlier. If this isn't limited to my account, if they charged only $150k in GBP transactions per day that's a little over $7,500, or $2.8M/year.

signupdamnit

If this really is a bug then I see no reason why it's only sponsors being short changed. You would think affiliates are also losing part of their cut. On average if it's a 50% program 50% of that 5.11% would be a little over 2.5% being taken from affiliates for such transactions. If this really is a bug then I certainly hope program owners AND affiliates are paid back all monies which are really owed to them.

BIGTYMER

I wonder how long this has been going on?

signupdamnit

Thank you for bringing this to the boards as opposed to keeping it quiet. If it's happening to others then others also deserve what is due to them. Including affiliates if they have lost money too. CCBill is a good company but their rates are high enough and they even charge for the stamp to send the check. There is no reason they should not be paying back any ill gotten funds. Fair is fair.

chucklesnorris

I would hope it's only limited to my account and no one else's but that's why I'm here asking others to test.

chucklesnorris

Thanks for the support, I was worried about being bashed for bringing it up. I agree, CCBill has been a good experience so far but this has thrown me off a bit. I waited for them to give me an update but support for this specific issue has been virtually non-existent, which is why I decided to post here after no progress.

Joshua G

to the extent they dont give you a conclusive answer, they may not know themselves what is wrong, or the tech who can determine the problem is not available.

I know firsthand, working in a large company, that miscommunications & rookie employees between departments can create a situation where people tell you its a bug when really the people in the know are not around.

hope its an innocent mistake they can correct for you.

chucklesnorris

@joshgirls, I see your site processes with CCBill - could you try testing it out and charging yourself? On your payment page it says 17.00 GBP when you click on the UK flag, which should bill you 26.61 USD (Assuming you're in the US) and report that same amount in the admin panel...

INever

Once they fix the bug can they start doing ACH direct deposit?

With the US Postal Service closing in a few months and all that....

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TheDA

Pretty sure this was all brought up a few years ago too and it wasn't a bug but a difference in the rates being used.

nation-x

I saw a movie about this bug... it was called Office Space

zurich

There is one of these identical threads every year, right on time.

Due

I don't think any banks and / or financial institutions give you the same currency exchange rates as you will find on "forex" sites like Oanda / xe etc

Most banks charge about 2-3% in fees, they don't show this they just lower the exchange rate. It also varies depending on the account and bank type. Finally it looks like you are charging GBP to a USD card, in this case you need to remove from your calculation the "foreign currency exchange fee" that Visa and / or your bank automatically add to your transactions

The method of charging could effect the final payment to them as well as the unstable currency rates can have a big effect since 2-3% up / down within a weeks period of time is not that unusual these days.

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icymelon

at least its in motion

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livexxx

try HMRC site for exchange rate

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chucklesnorris

Guys, this is not a difference in exchange fees. The actual conversion rate means nothing. What means everything is how much money I'm being charged and how much CCBill shows. If CCBill does their currency conversion less than all the other places, fine - but they're not CHARGING the customers the same amount I'm being paid. There is MISSING money.

I called my bank and verified this.

chucklesnorris

I don't think it's a coincidence that they charged me exactly the precise currency conversion down to the cent but paid me a whopping 5% less. If this was bank fees, currency conversion fees, foreign transaction fees or any other fees, it would be on top of what's already being charged, which once again, was precisely the exact conversion rate. I called my bank and they said I was charged 16 cents. I charged myself 4.00 GBP which started at $6.27 and ended up 16 cents more.

onlytease

Will be interesting to see CCBill's response on this one.

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chucklesnorris

Me too. I'll update as soon as I get more information other than "it's been reported as a bug".

seanchai

1. CCBill charges customer in UK £19.99 in their currency and to be drawn from the customers bank account.

2. The currency rate on xe.com and similar, will not be the currency rate you will get from your bank. The money above needs to be charged in UK and converted by CCBill's bank into a dollar amount. You cannot simply bring the £19.99 back to a US bank and convert it at what XE or the Bank of England rates state? The banks have a completely different conversion rate.

3. Try spending your US credit card in the UK (or vice-versa) and checking the total at the time of spend in your local currency on xe.com. Then see what you are charged on your bank statement, it will most likely be higher.

4. Welcome to the world of getting fucked by banks over charging.

I transfer fairly large sums of money between the UK and the US and the banks exchange rates are massively different (I have to go through a broker which cuts it down a lot). The bank won't tell you there is a charge, as there isn't but they do have vastly different rates.

Kolargol

I am really curious what CCBill has to say about it

brassmonkey

uh oh spaghettios

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12clicks

its "jumping through hoops"

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chucklesnorris

"The money above needs to be charged in UK and converted by CCBill's bank into a dollar amount." - Thanks for proving my point.

Directly from CCBill support: My point/Example:

CCBill charges 4.00 GBP
Shows up as a temporary transaction of $6.27 USD
Transaction posts, added with a 16 cents "fee" which = $6.43 USD
CCBill pays me $5.95

Am I missing something? I called my bank, no other fees other than the 16 cents fee.

Magically, coincidentally, 4.00 GBP to USD is exactly $6.27 (Take off a penny or two depending on who's doing the conversion. Note: That conversion is from back when I did the charge, it's probably different now).

I've ruled everything out, including differences in the conversion rate. If this was a conversion rate issue, the amount paid to me would be the same, not less, and I would just be complaining that CCBill charges less than what they should. - Which ironically, I complained to about 2 months ago and they told me they can't give me any information and that it's all handled internally.

Lastly, CCBill (3 people) verified this was a bug, one of which told me (via voicemail) it was submitted as such.

chucklesnorris

I'm sorry, but that's the first thing that came to mind when they told me that in order to have this issue looked into, I would need to have my customers print out their bank statement and fax it to ccbill support, along with a page containing all their personal info, including their full credit card number. Then, they would have to request that the issue be escalated. Like any of my customers would go through that so I could be paid the right amount. Right.

18teens

What the fuck, no response from CCBill yet?

Kolargol

is CCBill going to comment it at all?

chucklesnorris

I'm in contact with someone higher up in CCBill now (thanks to my post here ) and am working on getting it all sorted out. As of now, he's saying it's a bank conversion fee, but I'm still not convinced. I'll update when it's all settled.

Kolargol

Let us know when you get more info, thanks!

chucklesnorris

Will do, still waiting for the next response.

Manowar

Wonder if CCBill have read this?

rowan

You want to talk about getting fucked by currency exchange, have a look at Paypal.

To receive USD costs 2.5 - 3% in fees, then when you withdraw into your own local currency (using their shitty exchange rate - no other choice) you lose another 2-3%. Funny how Paypal claim that withdrawing is "free"

plsureking

ccbill's regional billing system has always been dog shit. customers dont like it and the rates are always screwy. turn that crap off and use USD on your forms.

that is if you have to use ccbill at all. there's much better billers these days..
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Due

You are missing a pretty obvious point.

CCBill charges you in GBP
CCBill receive GBP from the bank
The bank is doing the conversion, not CCbill they are dealing with this transaction in GBP. Based on the individual merchant account settings they have it may be converted to a different currency, but that's unrelated to the actual transaction. When transaction is processed it's processed as "give me 4 GBP" not "give me 4 GBP or 6.27 USD or 4.3 EUR or......"

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marzzo

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chucklesnorris

That's incorrect. It's the opposite. Directly from CCBill:

And my response that I'm waiting for a reply on:

plsureking

ya i guess if there is any discrepancy between what the customer pays and the sales revenue amount in ccbill, there should be a record of the difference noted somewhere. if its a bank fee, there should be a note/column in ccbill that shows there is a bank fee. all of their other fees are provided in detail. as you said, it looks like this is missing money.

the regional billing feature has been live for years. i wonder how many millions of dollars they have earned from this 'bug'? if these claims are true, it could be grounds for a class-action lawsuit and the end of this biller. if i was them i would take it more seriously.
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TheDA

How serious do you think they are taking it?

chucklesnorris

I may have to wait until Monday for a response.

I just called Wells Fargo to inquire again about the charge made to my Visa that I made myself.

The test transaction was 4.00 GBP.

It translated to $6.27 temporary transaction then posted a day later to $6.43 (a 16 cents fee).

I called and asked specifically what the fee was for. She said it was a conversion fee. So I said "So the original transaction was in GBP, and you converted it, and charged me 16 cents?" "Yes."

In other words, CCBill charged me 4.00 GBP (They didn't convert anything). Wells Fargo converted 4.00 GBP to $6.27 USD. Which at the time, was EXACTLY the same conversion rate I found on 10+ different places. Then, they charged me a 16 cents fee after it posted.

Then, CCBill, after receiving $6.27, paid me $5.95.

Joshua G

why do you think CCBill got $6.27 USD? You said the transaction was in GBP...that means wells fargo sent 4 GBP to CCBill, not $6.27USD.

Wells fargo hit you with the 16 cent fee to convert your USD funds into GBP to send 4 GBP to CCBills bank. (I am assuming you have a US account in USD correct?)

Then CCBills bank converts the 4 GBP back to USD to pay you out, & you got hit with a 2nd conversion fee for that.

plsureking

well they didnt reply on this thread and no one above the help desk has responded to the OP. how serious do you think they are taking it?
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chucklesnorris

You're right about them sending 4.00 GBP. Correct. Why do I think CCBill got $6.27? Because that's what 4.00 GBP equated to.

If CCBill is automatically converting those same funds to USD and passing along the fee to me, then I have a problem with that, as they're getting 4.00 GBP and I'm not.

I assumed that when I charged 19.99 GBP, I would actually get it. Do they not have an EU bank?

If this is the case then I'd want to get paid in GBP so I can avoid a 100% higher "conversion" fee that their bank apparently imposes. I assume they have EU merchants - do they have to pay 5.11% just to get paid? Why should I?

I'd rather have a separate bank account to collect my GBP funds rather than having CCBill automatically convert my money for me at their bank with their fees.

On a side note it's been annoying to get 10 different answers for what this issue is. I was told it was a bug 4 times by 4 different people. The first time I ever brought it up, it was regarded as a different exchange rate issue and that my customers were being charged the same as I was being paid >_> - like plsureking said, there should be a column in CCBill for this.

Due

When you BUY, not when you SELL. There is a difference, try and go down to your bank, buy 1000 GBP then exchange that to USD, exchange it back to GBP, then back to USD etc etc and see how fast the money is gone. Even if they do it without fees, there is always a spread in the buy and sell.
Most american banks do not let you hold multi currency accounts, the ones I found that do require you to receive USD to convert into other currencies. Good luck in finding one and let me know if you do, I'd like also euro credit cards from a US bank :-)

I'm sure they will do this for anyone with volumes, you may need to setup a EU entity though based on their accounting system. I would not complain about their rates.

From what I see they offer better rates than our bank was offering us in Liechtenstein, we just switched to using OANDA for currency conversions, I'd recommend them as they have great rates, of course you are going to be stuck on 2 extra wire fees for each exchange. (in and out) It looks like it is all forex related, also it's not a very common question. We work with a lot of different currencies in our system so I had to deal with this question a couple of times before. We actually added multi currency payouts as a result of this and afterwords the clients that complained switched back again to their regular settings as it turned out it was actually a lot more expensive than they realized to deal with multiple currencies.

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chucklesnorris

@Due I'm waiting to hear back to my bank but saving money seems like it would be as simple as CCBill paying me out in GBP and then my bank will do the conversion instead of theirs. I doubt this will ever happen unless I have an EU CCBill account but it was just a thought...