The Big Lie about how piracy leads to additional sales. Here is the evidence! - GoFuckYourself.com

Redrob · 02-29-2012, 11:56 AM

From Nate over at Takedown Piracy:

Very interesting read on the affects of online content piracy.

Quote:

That being said, according to this actual poll on a torrent site, 57% of the nearly 44,000 respondents are either buying less now that they discovered free downloads, or stopped paying for content COMPLETELY. Nearly 44% claim that they stopped paying for content completely once they found piracy sites.

Click here for link to Article.

Take a moment.....fucking thieves!

bronco67 · 02-29-2012, 12:00 PM

I'm not sure how anyone could ever think that people will open their wallets wider once they know they can get something for free. It's some kind of twisted rationalization to justify theft. I don't even know if those freetards even realize how silly their logic is.

The honor system won't work for the purchase of digital goods, because most people have no honor when they realize there's no consequences for their actions.

The answer is at the ISP level, with a la carte bandwidth. If someone wants to download hundreds of GB per month of pirated content, then they should have to pay for it. These people will get away with piracy, but the cheapskates will be cut out of the equation.

Klen · 02-29-2012, 12:12 PM

No shit sherlock,today i was talking with someone who said "man i had to buy game because i couldn't find pirated version"

redwhiteandblue · 02-29-2012, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronco67

The answer is at the ISP level, with a la carte bandwidth. If someone wants to download hundreds of GB per month of pirated content, then they should have to pay for it. These people will get away with piracy, but the cheapskates will be cut out of the equation.

So you're saying the ISPs should pay a share of the revenue to the content providers, be they porn sites or otherwise? Else how would making people pay for bandwidth also make them pay for the content on top?

FlexxAeon · 02-29-2012, 12:29 PM

Nothing surprising about this poll. You'd probably get the same numbers if you polled GFY. And not due to "surfers" or "affiliate passes"

pimpmaster9000 · 02-29-2012, 12:49 PM

It's amazing that somebody would actually think piracy increases sales LOL.

What is more amazing is that most people think this "easy piracy" model will last for ever LOL can't wait for SOPA/ACTA or whatever version to pass and watch the pirates whine about their "Freedom of speech" and stuff LOL

Porn profits do not have to return it will be just so refreshing seeing the pirates squirm and their "business model" go to shit....

seeandsee · 02-29-2012, 12:53 PM

they see free stuff, full vids, they stop paying, that is why we need better laws

Nautilus · 02-29-2012, 01:29 PM

So that "fantastic advertising" at piracy sites we keep hearing about doesn't work? OMG... And those hordes of new "fans" that we acquire at piracy sites are nothing but worthless leeches who'd never pay us a cent for our work? OMG... My world just turned upside down.

Redrob · 02-29-2012, 10:14 PM

Bump for evening.

Jakez · 02-29-2012, 10:30 PM

Surely hurts sales more than not. But there are those cases where people watch a pirated movie or something and tell others it was a good movie and those others go and buy it.

19teenporn · 02-29-2012, 10:31 PM

Fuck those motherfuckers!

Nautilus · 03-01-2012, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakez

Surely hurts sales more than not. But there are those cases where people watch a pirated movie or something and tell others it was a good movie and those others go and buy it.

A tiny fraction. The vast majority of cases is when ppl tell other ppl about how they found a good torrent site, where their buddies can get that good movie for free too.

Paul Markham · 03-01-2012, 02:02 AM

Where did they get 57%?

43.7 Completely stopped buying
13.4 Now buy less, not sure what they do buy after they pirated. So that's a mystery.
09.8 Never bought at all. Maybe they went straight to piracy.

That's 66.9%

We all know how free has hit sales in porn. The argument more people buy after they got it for free is stupid.

Cue GG to tell us this is all wrong.

2MuchMark · 03-01-2012, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronco67

I'm not sure how anyone could ever think that people will open their wallets wider once they know they can get something for free. It's some kind of twisted rationalization to justify theft. I don't even know if those freetards even realize how silly their logic is.

The honor system won't work for the purchase of digital goods, because most people have no honor when they realize there's no consequences for their actions.

Not exactly true. I know I can get free music and movies online, but I actually *enjoy* buying from iTunes, and I especially *LOVE* going to a movie theatre, and buying my favourite flicks on Bluray. All the software on our computers is paid for too.

SmutHammer · 03-01-2012, 02:50 AM

People like us will pay, because we are directly affected by piracy.

Roald · 03-01-2012, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Hammer

People like us will pay, because we are directly affected by piracy.

Hahahaha yeah right

DamianJ · 03-01-2012, 03:01 AM

40% spend the same or more.

V_RocKs · 03-01-2012, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roald

Hahahaha yeah right

he he heh...

Paul Markham · 03-01-2012, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Hammer

People like us will pay, because we are directly affected by piracy.

DWB · 03-01-2012, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamianJ

40% spend the same or more.

For the 43.7% (a staggering number) who completely stopped buying, that makes perfect sense. That is about average for how much loss a lot of people I know have had. Some more, some less. But you can add a poor economy to this recipe to get a little larger number.

Someone could do the math from here, but based on these figures, if you look at stats from what tubes and torrents have what percentage of internet traffic, you could figure out a rough idea on what percent each site has cost the industry in loss of sales. If anyone is up for that, I'd be very interested in seeing it and thank you in advance. It would be nice to know exactly how much each site is fucking us.

"Oh, but tubes bring sales." YES they do. But at what cost? How many sales did you lose in order to get the sales you're getting now?

DWB · 03-01-2012, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakez

Surely hurts sales more than not. But there are those cases where people watch a pirated movie or something and tell others it was a good movie and those others go and buy it.

Yes. I've listened to downloaded music at a friends house and gone home and bought the songs I like from iTunes. People who do this are part of the 40% who continue to buy, or possibly the 9% who buy more.

Most of the new music I come across these days comes through someone posting in Facebook or a video on Youtube giving credit to the artists. Then I'm off to iTubes or BandCamp to get it.

Paul Markham · 03-01-2012, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWB

For the 43.7% (a staggering number) who completely stopped buying, that makes perfect sense. That is about average for how much loss a lot of people I know have had. Some more, some less. But you can add a poor economy to this recipe to get a little larger number.

Someone could do the math from here, but based on these figures, if you look at stats from what tubes and torrents have what percentage of internet traffic, you could figure out a rough idea on what percent each site has cost the industry in loss of sales. If anyone is up for that, I'd be very interested in seeing it and thank you in advance. It would be nice to know exactly how much each site is fucking us.

"Oh, but tubes bring sales." YES they do. But at what cost? How many sales did you lose in order to get the sales you're getting now?

Actually 21% buy the same as before. not knowing how much that was, their ages, the trends of their buying. Would they be buying more than before if it wasn't free?

8.7 buy more.

9.8 never did and never will. because they can get it for free. and is that number growing with more kids coming online with the culture that it should be free?

The leaders of the big industries are not spending a lot of money, time and resources trying to reduce piracy because it brings more sales. Only a fool thinks that.

Yes the whole "traffic acquiring" thing has cost this industry dearly. tubes are just the latest thing. What's next?

gideongallery · 03-01-2012, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redrob

From Nate over at Takedown Piracy:

Very interesting read on the affects of online content piracy.

Click here for link to Article.

Take a moment.....fucking thieves!

and i stopped buying vcr tapes when dvd came out too

it a loaded question designed to get a specific answer

It like when the riaa only looks at record sales of signed artist selling 1000 or more a month and says look the sky is falling.

DWB · 03-01-2012, 05:01 AM

This message is hidden because gideongallery is on your ignore list.

How is this clown allowed to continue to post here? If ever there should be a public majority rule on banning someone, it would be this cock holster.

gideongallery · 03-01-2012, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWB

This message is hidden because gideongallery is on your ignore list.

How is this clown allowed to continue to post here? If ever there should be a public majority rule on banning someone, it would be this cock holster.

if you don't stick your head in the sand maybe you would learn something

Paul Markham · 03-01-2012, 05:41 AM

DWB. I firmly believe GG is a person employed by GFY to drive up posts. his replies are getting more stupid by the minute.

At least with me people have met me and even been to my studio. So I'm stupid, but exist.

johnnyloadproductions · 03-01-2012, 05:45 AM

This is why a lot of smart webmasters talk about looking more into mainstream projects, the reason is with porn your audience is mostly male. In other projects you can bridge multiple sexes and therefore have a much larger audience to choose from.

gideongallery · 03-01-2012, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

DWB. I firmly believe GG is a person employed by GFY to drive up posts. his replies are getting more stupid by the minute.

At least with me people have met me and even been to my studio. So I'm stupid, but exist.

yeah your so right

how could i be so stupid as to point out that the question asking if you stopped buying CD/DVD was a loaded question.

How dare i point out that such a question would completely eliminate itunes/amazon/other legal downloads from analysis causing people who switched to the new medium to be miscounted as stopping completely.

How dare i point out bald face lie that "they stopped paying for content completely once they found piracy sites." when the question only addressed stopped buying DVD/CD.

bronco67 · 03-01-2012, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redwhiteandblue

So you're saying the ISPs should pay a share of the revenue to the content providers, be they porn sites or otherwise? Else how would making people pay for bandwidth also make them pay for the content on top?

No they won't have to share, because only a tiny percentage of ISP customers will pay the extra money. Do you think most people can afford $500 cable bills, just so they can download every new movie that hits the torrents in Blu Ray quality?

bronco67 · 03-01-2012, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by **********

Not exactly true. I know I can get free music and movies online, but I actually *enjoy* buying from iTunes, and I especially *LOVE* going to a movie theatre, and buying my favourite flicks on Bluray. All the software on our computers is paid for too.

I said most people.

I'm the same as you. I know the avenues to get my shit for free, and I have in the past. I'm not even saying I don't lapse once in a while a download the occasional album from a blog. But I pay for everything now, because I'd like to be part of a solution.

I run an animaiton business, and some of the more expensive software I started out with as pirate versions. I didn't have to pay thousands of dollars over the last few years to become fully legit, but I did because(it sounds cliche) I sleep better at night. I shelled out $400 yesterday for a Modo update and didn't even think about it. The artists who make the content I love deserve my money, and I want them to get paid and keep making my music, movies, games and software.

I don't think that goes through most people's heads. They just like free shit and don't care where it comes from or how its made.

ottopottomouse · 03-01-2012, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redrob

From Nate over at Takedown Piracy

nice and impartial then

pimpmaster9000 · 03-01-2012, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopottomouse

nice and impartial then

well we will be sure to ask the pirates and thieves for their "point of view"

god forbid that we have an impartial view about the theft of our intellectual property LOL....

I can envision it now:

"oh loser pirates and cheap shit fappers, please give us your impartial opinion, because it is SO important to us, because you are such a gift to humanity...."

impartial LOL

Paul Markham · 03-01-2012, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crucifissio

well we will be sure to ask the pirates and thieves for their "point of view"

god forbid that we have an impartial view about the theft of our intellectual property LOL....

I can envision it now:

"oh loser pirates and cheap shit fappers, please give us your impartial opinion, because it is SO important to us, because you are such a gift to humanity...."

impartial LOL

I think they have already been asked.

No argument about the kind of traffic they're getting.

ottopottomouse · 03-01-2012, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crucifissio

well we will be sure to ask the pirates and thieves for their "point of view"

god forbid that we have an impartial view about the theft of our intellectual property LOL....

I can envision it now:

"oh loser pirates and cheap shit fappers, please give us your impartial opinion, because it is SO important to us, because you are such a gift to humanity...."

impartial LOL

Takedown Piracy are selling a service.

I suppose you think review sites are just being helpful too

tonyparra · 03-01-2012, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopottomouse

Takedown Piracy are selling a service.

I suppose you think review sites are just being helpful too

pimpmaster9000 · 03-01-2012, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopottomouse

Takedown Piracy are selling a service.

I suppose you think review sites are just being helpful too

how content producers/owners sell their stuff is absolutely no business of pirates and thieves...you introduced the false notion of an impartial view in a black and white situation...

takedown piracy promotes an anti scum bag parasite service there is no other way of looking at it...

Paul Markham · 03-01-2012, 09:48 AM

I wonder how ottopottomouse would vote in that poll. I bet he wished he had thought it through a bit more. LOL

In fact it would be interesting to see how everyone here would vote.

porno jew · 03-01-2012, 09:55 AM

i've never bought music since napster. well i bought two cd's i couldn't find on a torrent site.

i am not alone. the only people i know who still buy music and cd's aren't very tech savvy or don't have a computer.

FlexxAeon · 03-01-2012, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roald

Hahahaha yeah right

you ever feel like the dude in the soft drink commercials? where he works for coca-cola, but gets busted drinking pepsi?

or is it just me?

tigeress1 · 03-01-2012, 12:21 PM

Not saying its right by any means- However lets take a short walk down memory lane for a minute here.. Back in the early 2000's affiliate marketing was coming into play , and if you were on the beginning of the band wagon, you did pretty good, however by 2005 things started changing, and scams started flowing. Owners were now requiring you to make a certain amount of sales and income before payment.Payout amounts went from 25.00 to 100.00, and the market was so saturated that no one was making money. Spammers and hackers were robbing people blind and no one was stopping them or helping the honest affiliate out, people were just fed up and walking away.Than came rapid-share and mega-upload and picture hosting sites, all willing to pay for traffic.. Ahh.. people said, we can no longer make money doing affiliate work so lets do it for ourselves, so theft was on the rise, people set out to teach the adult industry a lesson, and it was one they felt hard, and instead of doing RIGHT by the affiliates ( which they should of done to begin with) they instead cried fowl. Now , how much do you think they pocketed by those accounts that never made it to the 100.00 mark? The affiliate never saw it, yet, they still cry fowl. Did they do the right thing and pay them that money when they stopped affiliate work for them? The answer is NO. So lets say you made 50.00 and 2000 more people made that as well , theirs $100,000.00 dollars from just them they pocketed, and NEVER worked for. Or maybe you earned 75.00 and another 2000 people did as well, that's another $150,000.00 they got, mind ya I am working on the low end of affiliates who just gave up and moved on, and were never paid because they never made the "quota". You want to complain, yet you don't look at both sides of the coin. You want people to come back and work for you, do right by them, and alot of theft would end. People liked the money when it was good , but greed took over on both sides, like it or not theirs two sides to this problem, and were one.

escorpio · 03-01-2012, 12:46 PM

I used to buy lots of porn back in the 80s and 90s but have spent less than $100 in the last 11 years thanks to free porn, not piracy.

FlexxAeon · 03-01-2012, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by escorpio

I used to buy lots of porn back in the 80s and 90s but have spent less than $100 in the last 11 years thanks to free porn, not piracy.

exactly. and we're the "pushers" who probably see more porn than the average consumer. so if we wouldn't even buy, why would a layman? it's free porn heaven out there

bronco67 · 03-01-2012, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porno jew

i've never bought music since napster. well i bought two cd's i couldn't find on a torrent site.

i am not alone. the only people i know who still buy music and cd's aren't very tech savvy or don't have a computer.

Okay, but do you feel good about doing that? A price has been set for a product and you take it because...it's easy and you're tech savvy? Is it a reward for being tech savvy?

02-29-2012, 12:00 PM	#2
bronco67 Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 29,035	I'm not sure how anyone could ever think that people will open their wallets wider once they know they can get something for free. It's some kind of twisted rationalization to justify theft. I don't even know if those freetards even realize how silly their logic is. The honor system won't work for the purchase of digital goods, because most people have no honor when they realize there's no consequences for their actions. The answer is at the ISP level, with a la carte bandwidth. If someone wants to download hundreds of GB per month of pirated content, then they should have to pay for it. These people will get away with piracy, but the cheapskates will be cut out of the equation. __________________ Last edited by bronco67; 02-29-2012 at 12:03 PM..

02-29-2012, 12:29 PM	#5
FlexxAeon Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 3,765	Nothing surprising about this poll. You'd probably get the same numbers if you polled GFY. And not due to "surfers" or "affiliate passes" __________________ flexx [dot] aeon [at] gmail Last edited by FlexxAeon; 02-29-2012 at 12:32 PM..

02-29-2012, 12:53 PM	#7
seeandsee Check SIG! Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europe (Skype: gojkoas) Posts: 50,945	they see free stuff, full vids, they stop paying, that is why we need better laws __________________ BUY MY SIG - 50$/Year Contact here

02-29-2012, 01:29 PM	#8
Nautilus Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,631	So that "fantastic advertising" at piracy sites we keep hearing about doesn't work? OMG... And those hordes of new "fans" that we acquire at piracy sites are nothing but worthless leeches who'd never pay us a cent for our work? OMG... My world just turned upside down. __________________ . . FerroCash - 50+ quality niche paysites to promote \| 100K+ FHGs \| Check recently added galleries New sites \| Pantyhose \| Nylon \| Shemale \| Strapon \| Lesbian \| Mature/MILF \| Anal \| Old&Young \| Gay \| Feet Morphing RSS feeds - check them at the Official blog\| Page Peels (Sample 1 : Sample 2) Wish to review or evaluate our sites before promoting them? Contact me for free password. ICQ: 38.89.22.76 e-mail: support AT ferrocash.com

02-29-2012, 10:30 PM	#10
Jakez Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: oddfuturewolfgangkillthemall!!!!!!! Posts: 5,656	Surely hurts sales more than not. But there are those cases where people watch a pirated movie or something and tell others it was a good movie and those others go and buy it. __________________ [email protected] - jakezdumb - 573689400 Killuminati

02-29-2012, 12:12 PM	#3
Klen Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Little Vienna Posts: 32,235	No shit sherlock,today i was talking with someone who said "man i had to buy game because i couldn't find pirated version"

02-29-2012, 12:49 PM	#6
pimpmaster9000 Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 26,732	It's amazing that somebody would actually think piracy increases sales LOL. What is more amazing is that most people think this "easy piracy" model will last for ever LOL can't wait for SOPA/ACTA or whatever version to pass and watch the pirates whine about their "Freedom of speech" and stuff LOL Porn profits do not have to return it will be just so refreshing seeing the pirates squirm and their "business model" go to shit....

02-29-2012, 10:14 PM	#9
Redrob Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: In a refrigerator box by the tracks. Posts: 4,790	Bump for evening.

02-29-2012, 10:31 PM	#11
19teenporn Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: En la reverendisima concha de tu madre! Posts: 3,034	Fuck those motherfuckers!

03-01-2012, 02:02 AM	#13
Paul Markham Too old to care Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On the sofa, watching TV or doing my jigsaws. Posts: 52,943	Where did they get 57%? 43.7 Completely stopped buying 13.4 Now buy less, not sure what they do buy after they pirated. So that's a mystery. 09.8 Never bought at all. Maybe they went straight to piracy. That's 66.9% We all know how free has hit sales in porn. The argument more people buy after they got it for free is stupid. Cue GG to tell us this is all wrong. __________________ Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500. PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

03-01-2012, 02:50 AM	#15
SmutHammer Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 3,840	People like us will pay, because we are directly affected by piracy.

03-01-2012, 03:01 AM	#17
DamianJ Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land Posts: 15,808	40% spend the same or more.

03-01-2012, 05:01 AM	#24
DWB Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Encrypted. Access denied. Posts: 31,779	This message is hidden because gideongallery is on your ignore list. How is this clown allowed to continue to post here? If ever there should be a public majority rule on banning someone, it would be this cock holster.

03-01-2012, 05:41 AM	#26
Paul Markham Too old to care Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On the sofa, watching TV or doing my jigsaws. Posts: 52,943	DWB. I firmly believe GG is a person employed by GFY to drive up posts. his replies are getting more stupid by the minute. At least with me people have met me and even been to my studio. So I'm stupid, but exist. __________________ Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500. PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

03-01-2012, 05:45 AM	#27
johnnyloadproductions Account Shutdown Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Gone Posts: 3,611	This is why a lot of smart webmasters talk about looking more into mainstream projects, the reason is with porn your audience is mostly male. In other projects you can bridge multiple sexes and therefore have a much larger audience to choose from.

03-01-2012, 09:48 AM	#37
Paul Markham Too old to care Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On the sofa, watching TV or doing my jigsaws. Posts: 52,943	I wonder how ottopottomouse would vote in that poll. I bet he wished he had thought it through a bit more. LOL In fact it would be interesting to see how everyone here would vote. __________________ Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500. PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

03-01-2012, 09:55 AM	#38
porno jew Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,166	i've never bought music since napster. well i bought two cd's i couldn't find on a torrent site. i am not alone. the only people i know who still buy music and cd's aren't very tech savvy or don't have a computer.

03-01-2012, 12:21 PM	#40
tigeress1 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 25	Not saying its right by any means- However lets take a short walk down memory lane for a minute here.. Back in the early 2000's affiliate marketing was coming into play , and if you were on the beginning of the band wagon, you did pretty good, however by 2005 things started changing, and scams started flowing. Owners were now requiring you to make a certain amount of sales and income before payment.Payout amounts went from 25.00 to 100.00, and the market was so saturated that no one was making money. Spammers and hackers were robbing people blind and no one was stopping them or helping the honest affiliate out, people were just fed up and walking away.Than came rapid-share and mega-upload and picture hosting sites, all willing to pay for traffic.. Ahh.. people said, we can no longer make money doing affiliate work so lets do it for ourselves, so theft was on the rise, people set out to teach the adult industry a lesson, and it was one they felt hard, and instead of doing RIGHT by the affiliates ( which they should of done to begin with) they instead cried fowl. Now , how much do you think they pocketed by those accounts that never made it to the 100.00 mark? The affiliate never saw it, yet, they still cry fowl. Did they do the right thing and pay them that money when they stopped affiliate work for them? The answer is NO. So lets say you made 50.00 and 2000 more people made that as well , theirs $100,000.00 dollars from just them they pocketed, and NEVER worked for. Or maybe you earned 75.00 and another 2000 people did as well, that's another $150,000.00 they got, mind ya I am working on the low end of affiliates who just gave up and moved on, and were never paid because they never made the "quota". You want to complain, yet you don't look at both sides of the coin. You want people to come back and work for you, do right by them, and alot of theft would end. People liked the money when it was good , but greed took over on both sides, like it or not theirs two sides to this problem, and were one.

03-01-2012, 12:46 PM	#41
escorpio I love to racism, bro! Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: USA! USA! USA! Posts: 22,801	I used to buy lots of porn back in the 80s and 90s but have spent less than $100 in the last 11 years thanks to free porn, not piracy.