The Latest Lie: Obama Cut Medicare - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

tony286 · 08-16-2012, 06:45 PM

And the first political campaign I ever volunteered for was for Guy Molinari.Most here would probably know his daughter Susan. He was a republican.

tony286 · 08-16-2012, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

What does Fox news have to do with anything. Why do people who are just blindly Democrats always scream Fox News and people who are blindly Republican scream the "liberal media".

I'm not like you Tony. I don't follow and believe all in one party or another. I choose based on the man. Obama is a big disappointment not only to me, but to a LOT of folks who voted for him.

Having firm believers like yourself say otherwise doesn't change what I saw with my own two eyes.
I know exactly what I voted for him for. And he never did what he said:
1. Close Gitmo
2. Stop with the fearmongering and give us back some of our freedom
3. TALK to our enemies and not just our allies
4. The economy of course.

I'm not sure he deserves my vote again. Obviously you think he did a great job. I don't.

As for the Supreme Court judge picking...I've heard that since the Reagan years. It hasn't happened yet. And matter of fact...Bush's main pick just made Obama-Care constitutional.
The Supreme Court is not a reason to vote for a man for president.

During the Reagan years it cost Adam and Eve over 1 million dollars in legal billls fighting Meese.

Connor · 08-16-2012, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Unions are now less than 7 percent of the work force. Back in the good days when one person could work and raise a family. In the 50 and 60's unions were almost one third of the work force. For such a free thinker you seem very based in right wing talking points nothing wrong with that. Some of my closest friends are righties and my dad may he rest in peace was a card carrying member of rnc and I miss him everyday. Also for one side Tony I voted for Deal for Gov and oxendine for insurance commissioner everytime he ran.

I was gonna point that out too but, figured I had to pick a line to discuss. But yup, anyone who wants to know what it was like for workers in America before labor unions, here's your read, if you didn't already read it in high school:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Grapes-Wra...rapes+of+wrath

Unions created the middle class. That way of life didn't really exist in America before them.

tony286 · 08-16-2012, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeRick

You Democrats sure do like to revise history... It was widly publicized during the debate in congress over Obama care!

Obama In November 2009: Right, One-Third Of ObamaCare Funding Comes From Cuts To Medicare

TAPPER: ?One of the concerns about health care and how you pay for it ? one third of the funding comes from cuts to Medicare.?

BARACK OBAMA: ?Right.?

TAPPER: ?A lot of times, as you know, what happens in Congress is somebody will do something bold and then Congress, close to election season, will undo it.?

OBAMA: ?Right.?

TAPPER: ?You saw that with the ?doc fix?.?

OBAMA: ?Right.?

TAPPER: ?Are you willing to pledge that whatever cuts in Medicare are being made to fund health insurance, one third of it, that you will veto anything that tries to undo that??

Here you go
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-medicare-cut/

DTK · 08-16-2012, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connor

Your use of the word "official" is important there cause it's kind of been an unofficial one for a while now, but now it's just in your face obvious ... they don't even try to hide it. They used to have the decency to skulk in the shadows in shame. lol

Isn't it odd that it's getting WORSE with the rise of the Internet instead of better? One of life's little mysteries.

Of course you're absolutely right about this.

And now, when one rich fuck like sheldon adelson can pump $50 Million into campaigns - an amount that would take 500,000 'average' folk donating $100 to equal. think about that for a sec - you're officially living in a plutocracy.

tony286 · 08-16-2012, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connor

I was gonna point that out too but, figured I had to pick a line to discuss. But yup, anyone who wants to know what it was like for workers in America before labor unions, here's your read, if you didn't already read it in high school:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Grapes-Wra...rapes+of+wrath

Unions created the middle class. That way of life didn't really exist in America before them.

A great movie

Henry Fonda a great line: "Whenever they's a fight so hungry people can eat, I'll be there. Whenever they's a cop beatin' up a guy, I'll be there... I'll be in the way guys yell when they're mad an'-I'll be in the way kids laugh when they're hungry an' they know supper's ready. An' when our folks eat the stuff they raise an' live in the houses they build-why, I'll be there."
also they can read about the triangle waist shirt fire. None of those job stopping regulations.

DTK · 08-16-2012, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Unions are now less than 7 percent of the work force. Back in the good days when one person could work and raise a family. In the 50 and 60's unions were almost one third of the work force.

Interesting thing about the 50's and 60's, - by any measure the time of greatest American prosperity - the highest marginal tax rates were between 70-91%.

I bring that up because of the biggest economic lie of the last 30 years, trickle-down/supply-side economics. The general idea is that high tax rates stifle potential employers from starting businesses, hiring people and generally growing their businesses.

Sky-high tax rates certainly didn't hamper us during our heyday, and we now have 30 years of data that shows 'trickle-down' to be so much bullshit.

tony286 · 08-16-2012, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTK

Interesting thing about the 50's and 60's, - by any measure the time of greatest American prosperity - the highest marginal tax rates were between 70-91%.

I bring that up because of the biggest economic lie of the last 30 years, trickle-down/supply-side economics. The general idea is that high tax rates stifle potential employers from starting businesses, hiring people and generally growing their businesses.

Sky-high tax rates certainly didn't hamper us during our heyday, and we now have 30 years of data that shows 'trickle-down' to be so much bullshit.

Yep and you had public college that was free. Andy Grove came out of public college. We had one of the greatest school systems in the world. During trickle down, debt became cheap and easy. So it gave people the illusion of having more when wages have been flat for 30 yrs. In real dollars a man college educated in his 30's makes less now than he did in 1982.

Robbie · 08-16-2012, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTK

Interesting thing about the 50's and 60's, - by any measure the time of greatest American prosperity - the highest marginal tax rates were between 70-91%.
.

And there is not a millionaire in the U.S. who actually PAID 70 to 91% of their money to the govt.
Not one. They all used every trick in the book and probably paid less taxes than the millionaires of today (technology wasn't around to catch them as easily back then)

I can't even begin to wrap my head around the 39% tax rate that is being proposed.

Can you?

Can you actually imagine making ONE MILLION dollars this year and then taking no deductions and actually writing a check for $390,000.00 to the U.S. govt. to use to bomb another country?

That's $390,000.00 you COULD have spent on your own family. I can't even imagine it.

And the only reason that the American people aren't outraged is because of the payroll tax. They never even SEE their money so they don't miss it. Then they get a "tax refund" at the end of the year and think it's the greatest thing ever.

Those of us who pay a check every quarter to the feds know better.

Robbie · 08-16-2012, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Yep and you had public college that was free. Andy Grove came out of public college. We had one of the greatest school systems in the world. During trickle down, debt became cheap and easy. So it gave people the illusion of having more when wages have been flat for 30 yrs. In real dollars a man college educated in his 30's makes less now than he did in 1982.

Public college that was free? Where? I've never heard of any college that was free.

tony286 · 08-16-2012, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

And there is not a millionaire in the U.S. who actually PAID 70 to 91% of their money to the govt.
Not one. They all used every trick in the book and probably paid less taxes than the millionaires of today (technology wasn't around to catch them as easily back then)

I can't even begin to wrap my head around the 39% tax rate that is being proposed.

Can you?

Can you actually imagine making ONE MILLION dollars this year and then taking no deductions and actually writing a check for $390,000.00 to the U.S. govt. to use to bomb another country?

That's $390,000.00 you COULD have spent on your own family. I can't even imagine it.

And the only reason that the American people aren't outraged is because of the payroll tax. They never even SEE their money so they don't miss it. Then they get a "tax refund" at the end of the year and think it's the greatest thing ever.

Those of us who pay a check every quarter to the feds know better.

but it started at a higher number so they paid less but not 13 % like old mitt

tony286 · 08-16-2012, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Public college that was free? Where? I've never heard of any college that was free.

you are too young.http://college.monster.com/news/arti...llege-was-free
The one in CA Reagan got killed.

Connor · 08-16-2012, 07:25 PM

I love this graph cause I think it says all you need to know about what's happened in America the last few decades, especially the last one:

I went to San Antonio last weekend and took my kid to the Riverwalk area. They have these canal boars for tourists, so I took him on it. Was like between $20 - $30 for the two of us. OK, fine. Watched the movie "Cloak & Dagger" with him last night, which came out when I was a kid in the 1980's... it takes place in San Antonio. There's a scene on that same boat ride in the movie, and in the 80's it was apparently $1.00 for adults and $.50 for kids to ride then. So... for anyone not in the top 20%, your annual income hasn't gone up much if anything since 1980's but your cost for everything else is through the roof.

Of course the graph is in 2008 dollars, which has to be factored in here, but pretty sure a 1985 dollar wasn't like what 20 times less valuable than a 2008 dollar.

Robbie · 08-16-2012, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Unions are now less than 7 percent of the work force. Back in the good days when one person could work and raise a family. In the 50 and 60's unions were almost one third of the work force. For such a free thinker you seem very based in right wing talking points nothing wrong with that. Some of my closest friends are righties and my dad may he rest in peace was a card carrying member of rnc and I miss him everyday. Also for one side Tony I voted for Deal for Gov and oxendine for insurance commissioner everytime he ran.

No, you just think I'm "right" leaning because you are very left leaning. So everything that isn't way over left seems "right" to you.

As for my union comment...yes, a hundred years ago unions were definitely needed. And they are still needed today. But like all bureaucracies, they have gone too far in my opinion.

For instance...govt. "unions". They weren't even LEGAL until Johnson.
FDR even warned against EVER allowing govt. workers to unionize.

Why are they unionized? I thought the federal govt. was all benevolent and great according to democrats? Would the feds suddenly become a sweat shop and dangerous work environment?

And how can anybody justify taking tax dollars and giving govt. employees big paychecks and "benefits"?

It's just insane in my opinion. The govt. should get and spend just enough money to efficiently do the work of the people. Nothing more, nothing less.

Instead it's a huge bloated monster that just keeps growing and growing.

When they talk of "cuts" it isn't what us normal people think of when we say we have to cut something.
For them it means INCREASING the amount of spending a little less than what they had originally planned on INCREASING it!

It's like a bizarro-world and it would be funny except they are stealing money from all of us to do it.

Robbie · 08-16-2012, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

you are too young.http://college.monster.com/news/arti...llege-was-free
The one in CA Reagan got killed.

I'm 50 years old. I lived down south and didn't ever know of any free colleges. NEVER heard of one.

And if Reagan got it "killed" it's for a great reason...the govt. has no business being in the academic world. None.

Robbie · 08-16-2012, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

but it started at a higher number so they paid less but not 13 % like old mitt

How do you know that? I don't know that. But an intelligent person could easily figure out that with no electronic data you could hide money all day long.

Also...since there was NO federal income tax until 1913 I took a look.

It appears that the all time high rates were only for a few years during WWI and WWII.

After WWI the rate went down to 25%.

It jumped back up during WWII and then stayed high all the way through the Cold War.

You seeing the pattern? It's ALWAYS military spending.

Let's cut the goddamn military and bring our troops back home from every base. We haven't been invaded since the War of 1812. WE are the ones who are doing the invading these last few decades.

I'm telling you Tony...we are overtaxed and it's not for building roads and helping people. It's for war.

Robbie · 08-16-2012, 07:39 PM

One other thing Tony...the tax rate you are quoting for Romney is the money he makes on Capital gains.

A LOT of people make money on capital gains. Including retirees, etc.

Are you suggesting that the capital gains tax should be raised to make sure that people like "mittens" will have to pay more taxes?

And if so...why? Why would you or any sane person ever want anybody else to have to pay more taxes? Especially capital gains taxes?

That really would put a big slam on what's left of the economy. The govt. already taxes the fuck out of your savings. So nobody does that anymore.
Once they tax the hell out of investments...that too will go down the tube.

Talk about the end of the middle class. When all investment leaves the U.S. for greener pastures that would pretty much do it.

tony286 · 08-16-2012, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

No, you just think I'm "right" leaning because you are very left leaning. So everything that isn't way over left seems "right" to you.

As for my union comment...yes, a hundred years ago unions were definitely needed. And they are still needed today. But like all bureaucracies, they have gone too far in my opinion.

For instance...govt. "unions". They weren't even LEGAL until Johnson.
FDR even warned against EVER allowing govt. workers to unionize.

Why are they unionized? I thought the federal govt. was all benevolent and great according to democrats? Would the feds suddenly become a sweat shop and dangerous work environment?

And how can anybody justify taking tax dollars and giving govt. employees big paychecks and "benefits"?

It's just insane in my opinion. The govt. should get and spend just enough money to efficiently do the work of the people. Nothing more, nothing less.

Instead it's a huge bloated monster that just keeps growing and growing.

When they talk of "cuts" it isn't what us normal people think of when we say we have to cut something.
For them it means INCREASING the amount of spending a little less than what they had originally planned on INCREASING it!

It's like a bizarro-world and it would be funny except they are stealing money from all of us to do it.

Actually isnt growing. its strunk under obama. And unions are needed now more than ever.No benefits, workers treated like shit. One Walmart store costs the tax payers over 400k in gov services the under paid employees use. Yep Im extreme left when I voted for two republicans and george bush the first time. What I do know who buys memberships its the middle class and they are getting screwed. And if you think no unions and less regulations and no taxes for rich people is the answer you are kidding yourself.
Also about free college, yeah its better for a kid to go to state school and leave for 60k in debt.

tony286 · 08-16-2012, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

One other thing Tony...the tax rate you are quoting for Romney is the money he makes on Capital gains.

A LOT of people make money on capital gains. Including retirees, etc.

Are you suggesting that the capital gains tax should be raised to make sure that people like "mittens" will have to pay more taxes?

And if so...why? Why would you or any sane person ever want anybody else to have to pay more taxes? Especially capital gains taxes?

That really would put a big slam on what's left of the economy. The govt. already taxes the fuck out of your savings. So nobody does that anymore.
Once they tax the hell out of investments...that too will go down the tube.

Talk about the end of the middle class. When all investment leaves the U.S. for greener pastures that would pretty much do it.

Where they going to go? They went no where during Clinton or during the 50's and 60's. This is still one of the most solid places in the world.

tony286 · 08-16-2012, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

How do you know that? I don't know that. But an intelligent person could easily figure out that with no electronic data you could hide money all day long.

Also...since there was NO federal income tax until 1913 I took a look.

It appears that the all time high rates were only for a few years during WWI and WWII.

After WWI the rate went down to 25%.

It jumped back up during WWII and then stayed high all the way through the Cold War.

You seeing the pattern? It's ALWAYS military spending.

Let's cut the goddamn military and bring our troops back home from every base. We haven't been invaded since the War of 1812. WE are the ones who are doing the invading these last few decades.

I'm telling you Tony...we are overtaxed and it's not for building roads and helping people. It's for war.

I agree about the war and did you know this is the first time they lowered taxes during war time. The only war also without a war tax in modern time. Also look at what life was like for regular people around 1900, no education, old age was starvation good times

Connor · 08-16-2012, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

And if Reagan got it "killed" it's for a great reason...the govt. has no business being in the academic world. None.

You can't really think that. American pioneered the public school approach, which brought education to all income levels. That's one of our signature accomplishments as a nation.

Our public universities are the best in the world, which is why people come here from all over the world to go to college.

We need skilled labor force... we can't just tell the most talented amongst us that they should dig ditches because they can't afford Harvard or Stanford. That would be shooting ourselves in the foot.

Not to mention the EXTREMELY VALUABLE RESEARCH that comes out of public universities, research that private industry USES when crafting new technologies.

tony286 · 08-16-2012, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connor

You can't really think that. American pioneered the public school approach, which brought education to all income levels. That's one of our signature accomplishments as a nation.

Our public universities are the best in the world, which is why people come here from all over the world to go to college.

We need skilled labor force... we can't just tell the most talented amongst us that they should dig ditches because they can't afford Harvard or Stanford. That would be shooting ourselves in the foot.

Not to mention the EXTREMELY VALUABLE RESEARCH that comes out of public universities, research that private industry USES when crafting new technologies.

Connor people really dont know the history of this country.
Andrew Stephen ("Andy") Grove (born 2 September 1936), is a Hungarian-born American businessman, engineer, and author. He is a science pioneer in the semiconductor industry. He escaped from Communist-controlled Hungary at the age of 20 and moved to the United States where he finished his education. He later became CEO of Intel Corporation and helped transform the company into the world's largest manufacturer of semiconductors. Andy went to City College in NY that was free.

Robbie · 08-16-2012, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connor

You can't really think that. American pioneered the public school approach, which brought education to all income levels. That's one of our signature accomplishments as a nation.

Nope, that would be the Aztecs, the Greeks, and in more "modern" times...the Germans (Strausberg in 1596)

Hardly an idea that our relatively "new" country came up with.

If you really think our educational system is so great, I have to totally disagree with you. It works, I'll give you that. But it's geared to the lowest common denominator levels and we get our asses smoked by a lot of other countries education systems.

Connor · 08-16-2012, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Where they going to go? They went no where during Clinton or during the 50's and 60's. This is still one of the most solid places in the world.

Agreed... I mean, if they want to take their ball and go to China... SEE YA, don't let the red, white and blue door hit you on the ass on the way out. ;)

There's some GREAT places to live in Europe, but they're not generally better for business purposes, taxes, etc. No advantage there.

We're still the world's number 1 economy until China passes us and, can't imagine living under that government's rule.

Robbie · 08-16-2012, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Connor people really dont know the history of this country.

Yeah...except I love history and made straight A's through school and later straight A's in Western Civ in college.

I'm not a historian. But I know enough to handle myself during a GFY debate. lol

Robbie · 08-16-2012, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connor

Agreed... I mean, if they want to take their ball and go to China... SEE YA, don't let the red, white and blue door hit you on the ass on the way out. ;)

There's some GREAT places to live in Europe, but they're not generally better for business purposes, taxes, etc. No advantage there.

We're still the world's number 1 economy until China passes us and, can't imagine living under that government's rule.

Connor, they are already taking their ball and going.

I watched GE on the news showing off their big plant in Brazil...it's the biggest plant making jet engines in the world.
You know, the same GE that are buddies with the current administration and paid ZERO taxes last year?

It's been happening all around us.

Why wouldn't we want to make the U.S. the number one place to do business in the world?

I'm at a loss as to why we wouldn't want that. Those jobs should be HERE. Not in Brazil.

tony286 · 08-16-2012, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Nope, that would be the Aztecs, the Greeks, and in more "modern" times...the Germans (Strausberg in 1596)

Hardly an idea that our relatively "new" country came up with.

If you really think our educational system is so great, I have to totally disagree with you. It works, I'll give you that. But it's geared to the lowest common denominator levels and we get our asses smoked by a lot of other countries education systems.

It wasnt like that before taxes are the lowest they have been in a long long time. Taxes get lowered education gets chopped and they talk about what about our kids future.

Connor · 08-16-2012, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Nope, that would be the Aztecs, the Greeks, and in more "modern" times...the Germans (Strausberg in 1596)

Hardly an idea that our relatively "new" country came up with.

If you really think our educational system is so great, I have to totally disagree with you. It works, I'll give you that. But it's geared to the lowest common denominator levels and we get our asses smoked by a lot of other countries education systems.

Well a couple of things....

1) I think our LOWER level educational system has a lot of problems, some places worse than others, and lots of other nations now have better public school systems at the lower levels than ours, but I would not trade it for a private school only approach ever. (I went to a private school for high school by the way and it was great, but it was also expensive and that's WHY it was great... I also went to a private school in second grade that was a religious private school and it was hell on earth.)

2) Now when you talk about HIGHER education, college, we ARE the best in the world. Period.

3) Just cause the Greeks and others had some forms of public education doesn't mean they had the kind of public education system that we pioneered. Ours was different and FAR more comprehensive.

tony286 · 08-16-2012, 08:02 PM

Here in 1900 to 1999
https://www.msu.edu/~bsilver/pls440century.html
Education

¶ At the beginning -- and even in the middle -- of the century, high school diplomas were rare, indeed. Back in 1900, for instance, only 6 percent of 17-year-olds graduated from high school. By 1940, 25 percent of people age 25 and over had at least a high school diploma. Today, a diploma is the rule rather than the exception: 83 percent of people age 25 and over had at least a high school diploma in 1998.

¶ The number of degrees conferred by the nation's colleges and universities now is more than 70 times higher than it was at the century's start: fewer than 30,000 were awarded in the 1899-1900 school year, compared with 2.2 mil. in 1995-1996.

Connor · 08-16-2012, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

It wasnt like that before taxes are the lowest they have been in a long long time. Taxes get lowered education gets chopped and they talk about what about our kids future.

Plus, the grand scheme from the privatization crowd is to damage public education by defunding it. Then people will scream for private schools, and guys like Mitt can make bank by setting up their schools everywhere. Schools that are free to preach religious dogma too, by the way.

Same shit they did with the post office... passed laws they knew would bankrupt it and, even though it costs taxpayers NOTHING (yes that's right the post office was always self sufficient before Congress fucked it up) they are killing it so FedEx and UPS will be our only options soon. FedEx is sharpening their anal probe pricing tools right now for when you can no longer go to the Post Office. ;)

tony286 · 08-16-2012, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connor

Plus, the grand scheme from the privatization crowd is to damage public education by defunding it. Then people will scream for private schools, and guys like Mitt can make bank by setting up their schools everywhere. Schools that are free to preach religious dogma too, by the way.

Same shit they did with the post office... passed laws they knew would bankrupt it and, even though it costs taxpayers NOTHING (yes that's right the post office was always self sufficient before Congress fucked it up) they are killing it so FedEx and UPS will be our only options soon. FedEx is sharpening their anal probe pricing tools right now for when you can no longer go to the Post Office. ;)

Amen Brother.

Robbie · 08-16-2012, 08:04 PM

I wish you guys would quit making me defend some of the right's positions. LOL

I don't agree with them either.

I don't know how "comprehensive" the ancient Greek educational system was. But I do know that they are the basis of our entire Western Civilization and our philosophical way of thinking. So I'm gonna say: it was BETTER.
The results certainly were. lol

As for best higher education in the world...I don't know.
Is Harvard really better than Oxford? Clinton didn't seem to think so. And he's one of the smartest presidents of my lifetime.

And I agree on private school. I hated it. Went for one semester in 3rd grade. They were so far advanced over me that I felt totally inadequate. I was a straight "A" student in public school. But a moron in private.

Robbie · 08-16-2012, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Here in 1900 to 1999
https://www.msu.edu/~bsilver/pls440century.html
Education

¶ At the beginning -- and even in the middle -- of the century, high school diplomas were rare, indeed. Back in 1900, for instance, only 6 percent of 17-year-olds graduated from high school. By 1940, 25 percent of people age 25 and over had at least a high school diploma. Today, a diploma is the rule rather than the exception: 83 percent of people age 25 and over had at least a high school diploma in 1998.

Tony, I have two kids. One graduated last year. The other is 15 and in high school. If you saw how low the standards are now you would laugh.
I swear to God we did more advanced stuff in 5th grade than they are doing in 10th grade.

They have lowered the standards down now to where you basically have to have severe retardation to NOT get a high school diploma. It's outrageous.

I guess it's all tied in to getting funding. They have to meet a certain criteria to get money. So they just keep dumbing shit down to get better ratios of "success".
That's why our kids aren't learning shit and get left in the dust by the Japanese.

Connor · 08-16-2012, 08:14 PM

This thread needs some skin.

StickyGreen · 08-16-2012, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Reading these posts is crazy.

All of you have your minds made up and create whatever fantasy land fits your choice.

The ones who hate Obama would hate him no matter what he did. He could adopt the entire Republican platform and they would still hate him.

The ones who hate Romney will hate him not matter what. He could likewise adopt the entire Democratic platform and they would still hate him.

It would be nice if we could stop treating politics like the parties are your favorite sports team.
I personally vote for what I think is right. I voted for Clinton in 1992. I voted Bush in 2000. I voted Obama 2008.

Haven't made up my mind yet about 2012. I think we would probably be best with a Republican led Senate and House and Obama as president. Or the other way around Dems control congress, Romney as president.

That seems to be what works from what I've seen in my lifetime.

But as far as being a "Dem" or "Repub"....fuck that. This ain't fantasy football. I take each man on his own merit and try to weigh the effects of what he will do.

And despite all the apologists and people trying to make excuses...Obama hasn't done much. Especially the first two years when he seemed to be missing in action while Reid and Pelosi ran the show.

Give it a rest man, the sheep will never fucking snap out of it, they love playing these pointless games every 4 years...

DTK · 08-16-2012, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

I'm telling you Tony...we are overtaxed and it's not for building roads and helping people. It's for war.

Robbie, first off, i'm not hassling you. Just want to get that out of the way.

I agree with half your statement. I don't believe for a second that we're overtaxed. See my previous post about tax rates in the '50s and '60s.

However, I agree 100% that our allocation of resources is completely out of whack, especially when it comes to war. These wars we are in are completely for money. Money for corporations.

The defense budget is about $900 Billion a year. About $180bil is for the VA, so let's leave that out. That leaves $720bil to fund 2 wars started under false pretenses. Let's cut that number in half. $360bil/year would still leave us with an incredibly strong military.

Can you all imagine the great things we could do here at home with the other $360bil/year??? As you say, roads, helping people etc. I'll add education to that as our educational system has been consistently gutted over the last 30 years. Without the H1B visa program, our lead in science would be gone overnight because our own kids have been getting a progessively sub-par education for a generation.

GrantMercury · 08-16-2012, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

He wasnt missing, if you read more than fox news talking points. Im not a big fan of his, he isnt a progressive at all but the man has done alot considering he had huge road blocks and people that decided on day one to be against everything he was for even if they were for it before.And you should be worried because the next president will be picking more supreme court judges which could effect our livelihood. That could make you wish for a 4 percent tax increase lol.

Agreed. Though I think he'd probably be a lot more progressive if it weren't for the political realities of the job. It's possible he'll be more progressive in his second term, I think. And you're dead right about the SCOTUS nominations.

theking · 08-16-2012, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

I agree about the war and did you know this is the first time they lowered taxes during war time. The only war also without a war tax in modern time. Also look at what life was like for regular people around 1900, no education, old age was starvation good times

If I am not mistaken...and I may be...the average life span was 40 at the turn of the 20th century.

GrantMercury · 08-16-2012, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Actually isnt growing. its strunk under obama. And unions are needed now more than ever.No benefits, workers treated like shit. One Walmart store costs the tax payers over 400k in gov services the under paid employees use. Yep Im extreme left when I voted for two republicans and george bush the first time. What I do know who buys memberships its the middle class and they are getting screwed. And if you think no unions and less regulations and no taxes for rich people is the answer you are kidding yourself.
Also about free college, yeah its better for a kid to go to state school and leave for 60k in debt.

Yep. The taxpayers subsidize fucking WalMart's payroll. They don't pay their employees enough to feed their kids. The health benefits suck, if they offer them at all. Sooooo, WE THE PEOPLE feed their children, and pay for their emergency room care - all while WalMart's profits are in the billions! It's CORPORATE WELFARE!!!

DTK · 08-16-2012, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theking

If I am not mistaken...and I may be...the average life span was 40 at the turn of the 20th century.

Close, about 47.

GrantMercury · 08-16-2012, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connor

I have a feeling your definition of "mainstream left-leaning media" is anyone who doesn't say what you want them to say about this topic but, this guy's non-partisan credentials are impeccable:

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/

Note the stats in the right column.

Thanks for the link!

Robbie · 08-16-2012, 10:14 PM

These political debates are like sweet n sour candy. lol

It's fun yet frustrating at the same time.

Reality is...we all have our minds made up. We've seen what we've seen. Lived through what we've lived. And formed our opinions.

The only thing that is incredulous to me is the percentage of people the media tell us truly haven't made up their minds.

It just seems impossible that anyone who doesn't live under a rock could not have an opinion and a decision made on who to vote for. I suspect that the folks who claim that when asked just don't want to tell what they think.

Anyway, as I said...this debate is both fun and frustrating. Kinda like my sex life. lol

tony286 · 08-17-2012, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

These political debates are like sweet n sour candy. lol

It's fun yet frustrating at the same time.

Reality is...we all have our minds made up. We've seen what we've seen. Lived through what we've lived. And formed our opinions.

The only thing that is incredulous to me is the percentage of people the media tell us truly haven't made up their minds.

It just seems impossible that anyone who doesn't live under a rock could not have an opinion and a decision made on who to vote for. I suspect that the folks who claim that when asked just don't want to tell what they think.

Anyway, as I said...this debate is both fun and frustrating. Kinda like my sex life. lol

Im glad it kept going after I went to bed. But you are right its fun.Back in the day this used to happen around the sunday dinner table at my grandmothers house. And we are more civil here. lol I was kid and they would scream and call each others names and then at the end of the night hug and kiss each other goodnight.That used to amaze me lol.

DudeRick · 08-17-2012, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

Here you go
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-medicare-cut/

The Tampa Bay Times?!? Seriously....

tony286 · 08-17-2012, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeRick

The Tampa Bay Times?!? Seriously....

I know facts are boring.

DudeRick · 08-17-2012, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony286

I know facts are boring.

Quotes from the liberal kool-aid is boring!

DTK · 08-17-2012, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeRick

The Tampa Bay Times?!? Seriously....

if you can't refute the facts, kill the messenger. lame.

Tom_PM · 08-17-2012, 11:13 AM

Pretty sure when an elephant pisses on some people they do believe that it is rain.
Others it's the donkey. Just so I'm not playing favorites.

Sometimes 1 plus 1 really does equal 2 though. But where?

DudeRick · 08-17-2012, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DTK

if you can't refute the facts, kill the messenger. lame.

Then I am sure that you would have no problem if I quoted everything from Fox News as fact right?

DTK · 08-17-2012, 11:57 AM

100 lies

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeRick

Then I am sure that you would have no problem if I quoted everything from Fox News as fact right?

Hey, if you (or anyone else) like to live in fantasy land, that's your call ;)

Just so you know, the source we're talking about is Politifact, an independent, pulitzer-prize winning organization that fact-checks statements made by political figures & others.

Their 'pants on fire' section is particularly fun: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...gs/pants-fire/

and fyi, other major news sources including the Washington Post have also called bullshit on this one.

08-16-2012, 07:25 PM	#63
Connor Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,294	I love this graph cause I think it says all you need to know about what's happened in America the last few decades, especially the last one: I went to San Antonio last weekend and took my kid to the Riverwalk area. They have these canal boars for tourists, so I took him on it. Was like between $20 - $30 for the two of us. OK, fine. Watched the movie "Cloak & Dagger" with him last night, which came out when I was a kid in the 1980's... it takes place in San Antonio. There's a scene on that same boat ride in the movie, and in the 80's it was apparently $1.00 for adults and $.50 for kids to ride then. So... for anyone not in the top 20%, your annual income hasn't gone up much if anything since 1980's but your cost for everything else is through the roof. Of course the graph is in 2008 dollars, which has to be factored in here, but pretty sure a 1985 dollar wasn't like what 20 times less valuable than a 2008 dollar. __________________ YNOT v5 IS NOW LIVE! \| SEEN YNOT MAIL YET? Last edited by Connor; 08-16-2012 at 07:28 PM..

08-16-2012, 07:39 PM	#67
Robbie Leaner, Meaner, Faster Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vegas Posts: 20,955	One other thing Tony...the tax rate you are quoting for Romney is the money he makes on Capital gains. A LOT of people make money on capital gains. Including retirees, etc. Are you suggesting that the capital gains tax should be raised to make sure that people like "mittens" will have to pay more taxes? And if so...why? Why would you or any sane person ever want anybody else to have to pay more taxes? Especially capital gains taxes? That really would put a big slam on what's left of the economy. The govt. already taxes the fuck out of your savings. So nobody does that anymore. Once they tax the hell out of investments...that too will go down the tube. Talk about the end of the middle class. When all investment leaves the U.S. for greener pastures that would pretty much do it. __________________ -Robbie ClaudiaMarie.Com

08-16-2012, 08:04 PM	#82
Robbie Leaner, Meaner, Faster Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vegas Posts: 20,955	I wish you guys would quit making me defend some of the right's positions. LOL I don't agree with them either. I don't know how "comprehensive" the ancient Greek educational system was. But I do know that they are the basis of our entire Western Civilization and our philosophical way of thinking. So I'm gonna say: it was BETTER. The results certainly were. lol As for best higher education in the world...I don't know. Is Harvard really better than Oxford? Clinton didn't seem to think so. And he's one of the smartest presidents of my lifetime. And I agree on private school. I hated it. Went for one semester in 3rd grade. They were so far advanced over me that I felt totally inadequate. I was a straight "A" student in public school. But a moron in private. __________________ -Robbie ClaudiaMarie.Com

08-16-2012, 08:14 PM	#84
Connor Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,294	This thread needs some skin. __________________ YNOT v5 IS NOW LIVE! \| SEEN YNOT MAIL YET?

08-16-2012, 10:14 PM	#92
Robbie Leaner, Meaner, Faster Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vegas Posts: 20,955	These political debates are like sweet n sour candy. lol It's fun yet frustrating at the same time. Reality is...we all have our minds made up. We've seen what we've seen. Lived through what we've lived. And formed our opinions. The only thing that is incredulous to me is the percentage of people the media tell us truly haven't made up their minds. It just seems impossible that anyone who doesn't live under a rock could not have an opinion and a decision made on who to vote for. I suspect that the folks who claim that when asked just don't want to tell what they think. Anyway, as I said...this debate is both fun and frustrating. Kinda like my sex life. lol __________________ -Robbie ClaudiaMarie.Com

08-16-2012, 06:45 PM	#51
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	And the first political campaign I ever volunteered for was for Guy Molinari.Most here would probably know his daughter Susan. He was a republican.

08-16-2012, 08:02 PM	#79
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	Here in 1900 to 1999 https://www.msu.edu/~bsilver/pls440century.html Education ¶ At the beginning -- and even in the middle -- of the century, high school diplomas were rare, indeed. Back in 1900, for instance, only 6 percent of 17-year-olds graduated from high school. By 1940, 25 percent of people age 25 and over had at least a high school diploma. Today, a diploma is the rule rather than the exception: 83 percent of people age 25 and over had at least a high school diploma in 1998. ¶ The number of degrees conferred by the nation's colleges and universities now is more than 70 times higher than it was at the century's start: fewer than 30,000 were awarded in the 1899-1900 school year, compared with 2.2 mil. in 1995-1996.

08-17-2012, 11:13 AM	#98
Tom_PM Porn Meister Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 16,443	Pretty sure when an elephant pisses on some people they do believe that it is rain. Others it's the donkey. Just so I'm not playing favorites. Sometimes 1 plus 1 really does equal 2 though. But where? __________________ 43-922-863 Shut up and play your guitar.