You can drill as much as you want - gas will not become cheaper. - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Captain Kawaii · 09-07-2012, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

Because why would Shell, Conoco or whoever drills it out of the ground sell it for less than the market price?

You are absolutely correct. This year US is a net exporter/importer. We are sending tons of petroleum to other countries. The drilling thing is geared to greed and pimping US resources for the profits to a few. peereodd.

Captain Kawaii · 09-07-2012, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Supply and demand. The market price will drop as supply gets larger. Just like everything else does.

Supply would get larger except every time there is a glut, there is a fire, there is a rebel raid on an oil facility or there is maintenance to be done, suddenly, at half the refineries. Price will only go up from here. It may "ease" from time to time to fool the fools but price of petroleum only has one overall direction and it is not down.

Wait 10 years and hear the excuses they make for the price of solar or wind going up. "Sun was not as bright as usual this week", "winds died down", "dog ate my solar panel"...

Mr Spock · 09-07-2012, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

the oil companies are not interested in dropping prices, they would just drill less. like they do now already.

Oil companies don't control the prices , supply and demand determines the price and unfortunately oil companies don't control the supply - OPEC does.

Doesn't help blaming oil companies - blame OPEC if you don't like higher gas prices. So yes drilling for more more oil onshore will increase supply and should lower prices assuming OPEC doesn't lower output to counter that move.

The oil market isn't a free market

Redrob · 09-07-2012, 11:31 PM

I hope to be solar by the end of this year at my home; and, off the power grid at my offices by the end of next year. The feds and city have some serious rebates and tax credits right now that cover 65 to 70% of the install costs.

Captain Kawaii · 09-07-2012, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Spock

Oil companies don't control the prices , supply and demand determines the price and unfortunately oil companies don't control the supply - OPEC does.

Doesn't help blaming oil companies - blame OPEC if you don't like higher gas prices. So yes drilling for more more oil onshore will increase supply and should lower prices assuming OPEC doesn't lower output to counter that move.

The oil market isn't a free market

OPEC only controls a small portion of the supply. Oil companies have a part every step of the way from exploration to delivery. Speculators working in collusion with Wall Street and the Oil companies drive up the prices for their benefit. It has been shown that oil companies sell their oil to subsidiaries to drive up the bidding by allowing competitive bids between "separate" entities to drive prices up. Seriously, pay attention. This is all public data available to you.

The public and gas station owners get fucked. Did you know that gas station owners earn on average 1-2 cents per gal profit? Nice margin. Why do you think they all have become kwiki marts? Only real chance for profit.

Roald · 09-07-2012, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relentless

Raising fuel efficiency is the better fix.
If gas is $12 per gallon and you get 150 miles to the gallon,
you are much better off than if you get it back to $3 per gallon and 20mpg on most cars.

The planet would also be much better off.
We drill very well... We burn fuel like we are half retarded cavemen in drag racers.

Cheap fuel is bad in many ways. Inefficient use of fuel is the real problem.

you must not be american! lol

Matt 26z · 09-08-2012, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeRick

I disagree that it won't drop at all.

Any amount it drops is money out of OPEC's pocket. Do you honestly believe they wouldn't take supply action to keep the value exactly where they want it?

The price you pay at the pump is what OPEC wants you to pay. Nothing can change that except for a nationalized oil industry (something we should have done a long time ago, but likely never will).

Paul Markham · 09-08-2012, 12:06 AM

Gas and oil are commodities, the less around the higher the price.

Look at the Diamond market to see how it's not in the oil companies interest to flood the market with oil and gas. It's also a resource that isn't going to last for ever, so making it cheaper so people can consume it faster is also a stupid way to go. About as stupid as giving away the product for free to get more sales. So not surprised so many here think it a good idea. :oh crap!!!

If you want to save on your fuel bill, use less. It really is that simple.

Robbie · 09-08-2012, 12:12 AM

I think you guys are right. Let's just leave all this oil and gas in the ground and see if we can come up with something new. In the meantime let's watch what happens when the cost of food goes through the roof as transporting it becomes more and more expensive with the price of fuel going up.

Talk about a tax on the middle class...

Or we could read this news report from May 2012 talking about the fact that oil companies have now made GIANT discoveries of oil right here in the U.S. that could make us energy independent and have no need to import oil.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...NCE/54977254/1

Effectively buying us plenty of time to develop new technologies in green energy without having to make it so expensive to fill the tank for lower and middle class Americans (rich people don't care if it costs $100 to fill the tank)

Paul Markham · 09-08-2012, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

I think you guys are right. Let's just leave all this oil and gas in the ground and see if we can come up with something new. In the meantime let's watch what happens when the cost of food goes through the roof as transporting it becomes more and more expensive with the price of fuel going up.

Talk about a tax on the middle class...

Or we could read this news report from May 2012 talking about the fact that oil companies have now made GIANT discoveries of oil right here in the U.S. that could make us energy independent and have no need to import oil.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...NCE/54977254/1

Effectively buying us plenty of time to develop new technologies in green energy without having to make it so expensive to fill the tank for lower and middle class Americans (rich people don't care if it costs $100 to fill the tank)

Great idea. Leave it in the ground for now and run the US on foreigners oil. When they have been depleted, become the majors world oil supplier.

Far better than drill everywhere and running the US on it's own oil and running out. The price dropping is a myth. It's not in the oil companies interests to go around drilling everywhere to supply you with cheap oil. For them it's better to get more money for the same production, than the same money for more production.

You seem to be complaining about prices a lot recently. As you're rich I wonder why. If you truly want to cut your fuel bill, buy a smaller car, get a bike for short trips, or one of these http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/best-worst.shtml and your gas bill will plummet. Much faster than any saving at the pumps. And if more Americans drove these cars, fuel imports will drop like a stone.

As for food prices. How about the Government taxes you more so they can give the farmers more in the grants. Or really hit farmers with huge fines for employing illegal labour so they have to employ US citizens and pass the cost onto you. I hear about the immigrant problem from a lot of posters here.

As the OP says. They can drill and drill, the price isn't going down much on a barrel and cents at the pump. You need to find new ways to save money.

Here's more ideas.

http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/solar.html

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-a-box-sunfish

http://www.siliconsolar.com/diy-solar-panel-kits.html

You live in the desert, the sun hardly stops shining. For a few $100s you could cut your electricity bill. Which it seems is your prime interest today.

Barry-xlovecam · 09-08-2012, 07:21 AM

Whatever happened to sawgrass ethanol?

Making bio-fuels is fine in concept however using corn and creating higher meat prices in the USA, ( notice the price of feeder livestock beef and pork has risen 30% or 40% the past couple of years? ) and food shortages world wide by decreasing grain exports?

And a cheap way to turn water into hydrogen -- the most abundant fuel source in the world? They are starting to use hydrogen power efficiently in Iceland ... Iceland ??? A little country ...

Quote:

Hydrogen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewab...eland#Hydrogen
Currently, imported oil fulfils most of Iceland's remaining energy needs. This cost has caused Iceland to focus on domestic, renewable energy. Bragi Arnason, a local professor, first proposed the idea of using hydrogen as a fuel source in Iceland during the 1970s, which is also when the oil crisis occurred. At that point in time this idea was considered untenable, but in 1999 Icelandic New Energy was established to govern the project of transitioning Iceland into the first hydrogen society by 2050.[10] This followed a decision in 1998 by the Icelandic Parliament to convert vehicle and fishing fleets to hydrogen produced from renewable energy.[11]

Iceland provides an ideal location to test the viability of hydrogen as a fuel source for the future, since it is a small country of only 320,000 people, with over 60% living in the capital, Reykjavík. The relatively small scale of the infrastructure will make it easier to transition the country from oil to hydrogen. There is also a plentiful supply of natural energy that can be harnessed to produce hydrogen in a renewable way, making it perfect for hydrogen production. Iceland is a participant in international hydrogen fuel research and development programs, and many countries are following the nation's progress with interest. However, these factors also make Iceland an advantageous market for electric vehicles. Because electric vehicles are four times more efficient, and less expensive than hydrogen vehicles, the country may switch to electric vehicles.[12]

Iceland already converts its surplus electricity into exportable goods and hydrocarbon replacements. In 2002 it produced 2,000 tons of hydrogen gas by electrolysis—primarily for the production of ammonia for fertilizer.

Hydrogen fuel could be produced in the Pacific Northwest where there is cheap hydroelectric power sources and sent by pipeline (technology to be developed) to the Western USA.

Sure, it is a major investment but it would create jobs, technical innovation and in the process improve the balance of trade in America's favor. We would need to build new fuelling stations -- more jobs and useful spending. Why the hell we are not doing this?

Vested interests in the petrochemical business ... That's why.

jimmycooper · 09-08-2012, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

I think you guys are right. Let's just leave all this oil and gas in the ground and see if we can come up with something new. In the meantime let's watch what happens when the cost of food goes through the roof as transporting it becomes more and more expensive with the price of fuel going up.

Talk about a tax on the middle class...

Or we could read this news report from May 2012 talking about the fact that oil companies have now made GIANT discoveries of oil right here in the U.S. that could make us energy independent and have no need to import oil.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...NCE/54977254/1

Effectively buying us plenty of time to develop new technologies in green energy without having to make it so expensive to fill the tank for lower and middle class Americans (rich people don't care if it costs $100 to fill the tank)

Looking good Robbie! If you keep doing what you're doing, I bet that in 2.3,4 months, maybe 6 months down the road you'll be much closer to where you need to be!

In the meantime, you should maybe consider going to a tanning salon or something. I guess it's kind of like an illusory type thing, but having a little bit color tends to make your muscles appear as if they're more defined. No sense in hiding all your hard work under a pale mound of flesh, right? Be sure to ask for a low intensity bed. It may take longer but if you do it that way you'll end up with a nice, natural looking tan and that's what you want. Nobody wants an orange Robbie. Just stay patient, don't get frustrated, and keep up the good work! We're all very proud of you!

bhutocracy · 09-08-2012, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

I think you guys are right. Let's just leave all this oil and gas in the ground and see if we can come up with something new. In the meantime let's watch what happens when the cost of food goes through the roof as transporting it becomes more and more expensive with the price of fuel going up.

Talk about a tax on the middle class...

Or we could read this news report from May 2012 talking about the fact that oil companies have now made GIANT discoveries of oil right here in the U.S. that could make us energy independent and have no need to import oil.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...NCE/54977254/1

Effectively buying us plenty of time to develop new technologies in green energy without having to make it so expensive to fill the tank for lower and middle class Americans (rich people don't care if it costs $100 to fill the tank)

Read the article again, seems you missed the part about gas not going under $3 even with the "giant" finds given the expense of producing oil from these sources.

Paul Markham · 09-08-2012, 08:26 AM

What will make people more fuel efficient and waste less?

More expensive oil or cheaper oil?

**************************

What will make people go to alternative sources of power?

More expensive oil or cheaper oil?

**************************

What will make people develop more alternative sources of power?

More expensive oil or cheaper oil?

It really is a no brainer.

MaDalton · 09-08-2012, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garce

Market price in Venezuela? 8 cents per gallon as of March 2011. I doubt its gone up much since then. Maybe you mean market price in Iran ($1.44) or Saudi Arabia ($0.61)

english is not my first language but the "market price" i am speaking about is the price per barrel oil - not how much gas costs at the gas station. those prices vary too much from country to country because of local taxes. some countries put high taxes on it, others pay subsidies to keep them low

jimmycooper · 09-08-2012, 08:51 AM

Based on this 2010 study, global population is expected to increase by 1.4 billion by 2030. That's like the world now minus 20 years of natural resources plus one more China.

Projected increase of just the top ten most populous countries is 676MM. The top ten countries are India, China US, Indonesia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Brazil, Bangladesh, Russia, and Mexico. They're not driving hybrids in Bangladesh. How much is a Prius? $25K? The combined GDP per capita of India, Indonesia, Nigeria, Pakistan, and Bangladesh is just under $15K.

8 of the 10 are perceived to be going through periods of industrialization where more resources are needed to fuel growth. The trucks being used to haul shit to some construction site at the next Nigerian megapolis have more impact on the global market than do the F150s that middle American douchebags use to haul their pretend boats to the pretend lake.

If every middle American soccer mom goes to a Toyota dealership this afternoon to trade in their gas guzzling SUV for a Prius, there's a small chance it would cause the price of a barrel to go down by a few pennies, but the 'impact' on oil prices would be short lasting because the global market is more defined with the actions of one billion industrializing chinamen.

Sunny Day · 09-08-2012, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

I agree they want to make all the profit they can. God knows if I could raise the price on our paysites I would.

But keep in mind that the oil companies are right now trying their best (and being blocked by the U.S. Govt) to drill MORE.
Also keep in mind that we need more oil refineries in the U.S. as well.

In 2011, the US exported 20 million gallons of gasoline to markets like China & India
http://zfacts.com/node/426

Several East Coast refineries have closed down. So re-open them.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/02...stop-exporting

Also first the first time in decades, in 2011 the US was a net exporter of oil
http://www.advisorperspectives.com/c...klin_40412.php

CarlosTheGaucho · 09-08-2012, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

I think you guys are right. Let's just leave all this oil and gas in the ground and see if we can come up with something new. In the meantime let's watch what happens when the cost of food goes through the roof as transporting it becomes more and more expensive with the price of fuel going up.

This is already happening, and crude oil of course has countless implementations in the industry apart from petrol, basically there's oil in pretty much anything.

Once you produce for the price you want to produce (high) you're increasing the global cost of production.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Talk about a tax on the middle class...

Yet this is precisely what is happening already, and nobody has any reason whatsoever to change it (unless the oil industry as a strategic commodity would get nationalized).

Organizations such as OPEC weren't institutionalized to help the world, they were institutionalized to make the most money from oil in a cartel, that's where the rules are made, that's where the supply is regulated for someone to be able to make the most $$$.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Or we could read this news report from May 2012 talking about the fact that oil companies have now made GIANT discoveries of oil right here in the U.S. that could make us energy independent and have no need to import oil.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...NCE/54977254/1

Effectively buying us plenty of time to develop new technologies in green energy without having to make it so expensive to fill the tank for lower and middle class Americans (rich people don't care if it costs $100 to fill the tank)

Do you really believe that the same companies that pretty much own the government would like the same government to put way, way more money into any other apart from just pseudo / politically justifiable pro-alternative energy research and agenda?

These Giant discoveries always "happen" with the right timing, not only that there's supposingly much, much more potential crude oil that can be drilled with the ever more modern technologies (that can again only be financed by those who have enough gold since they control the oil market).

It's that those who have the gold make the rules, and every move, anything that goes widespread in public media as a part of someone's political agenda simply has to make sense $$$ wise.

Once there would threaten a serious shift / political will towards alternative energies there may as well be yet another "giant discovery" to fullfill the political agenda of those, that were bought by the oil companies in the first place.

The US crowd will always hail to anyone who offers them 5c off gallon and more oil drilling, there you have the perfect synergy between those two - politics and oil industry.

nico-t · 09-08-2012, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashfire

you gonna tow my boat or trailer with your Jetta? fit my entire family in there plus gear?

because everyone who drives a plump ugly american truck has a boat.

madm1k3 · 09-08-2012, 10:55 AM

OK lets not let facts get in the way,

Canada and Mexico supply America with over sixty percent of their oil imports, who owns the Canadian oil fields..... American Companies! You would ask why are American companies extracting oil from Northern Alberta, simple thats where the oil is.

Texas and other American states have run out of new oil reserves, Keystone pipeline is designed to keep the refineries in the Southern USA in the money by taking the bitumen oil from Alberta, refining it, and selling at market price. There is no reason to do this other than it will save on shipping and increase profits of the oil sands. If you believe it will lower gas prices.... well then I have some magic beans for sale as well.

The other hard truth is that oil needs to be $75 - $80 a barrell or more for the Albera oil sands to be profitable. I highly doubt we will ever see it dip below this ever again, because AMERICAN and Chinese oil companies have almost a trillion dollar investment in the oil sands and we all know oil companies don't lose money

Barry-xlovecam · 09-08-2012, 11:07 AM

Get rid of it ...

Robbie · 09-08-2012, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madm1k3

OK lets not let facts get in the way,

One of the biggest oil finds in history last year in the Gulf 1 BILLION barrels of recoverable oil:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...275032794.html

And that's just one of the massive oil finds that new technology is making happen...but the Obama administration blocked.

Oil creates jobs. High paying jobs. And jobs are what we need in the U.S.

Everybody keeps saying "oh, it won't work". Well, there is only one way to find out.

Common sense tells me that if you create high paying jobs and lower the cost of energy...the economy will roar.
Maybe I just have a different idea of how business works and how to be successful than some of you guys do.

Paul Markham · 09-08-2012, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmycooper

Based on this 2010 study, global population is expected to increase by 1.4 billion by 2030. That's like the world now minus 20 years of natural resources plus one more China.

Projected increase of just the top ten most populous countries is 676MM. The top ten countries are India, China US, Indonesia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Brazil, Bangladesh, Russia, and Mexico. They're not driving hybrids in Bangladesh. How much is a Prius? $25K? The combined GDP per capita of India, Indonesia, Nigeria, Pakistan, and Bangladesh is just under $15K.

8 of the 10 are perceived to be going through periods of industrialization where more resources are needed to fuel growth. The trucks being used to haul shit to some construction site at the next Nigerian megapolis have more impact on the global market than do the F150s that middle American douchebags use to haul their pretend boats to the pretend lake.

If every middle American soccer mom goes to a Toyota dealership this afternoon to trade in their gas guzzling SUV for a Prius, there's a small chance it would cause the price of a barrel to go down by a few pennies, but the 'impact' on oil prices would be short lasting because the global market is more defined with the actions of one billion industrializing chinamen.

Good post. Also driving a Prius will lower the cost of fuel, the consumer will pay less and get more miles.

Quote:

Common sense tells me that if you create high paying jobs and lower the cost of energy...the economy will roar.
Maybe I just have a different idea of how business works and how to be successful than some of you guys do.

Common sense tells the rest of us it will make no difference to the price. At best cents on gallon. The oil companies are in the business of keeping the price high.

jimmycooper · 09-08-2012, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Good post. Also driving a Prius will lower the cost of fuel, the consumer will pay less and get more miles.

Thanks. Yeah, driving a Prius or some other type of fuel efficient car can definitely have an effect on one's own personal expenditures. It just won't help save the world or anything like that.

slavdogg · 09-08-2012, 06:23 PM

[QUOTE=MaDalton;19175926]http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/

Did you bother to notice that North AMerican oil is about $20 cheaper per barrel than European ??

Barry-xlovecam · 09-08-2012, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Good post. Also driving a Prius will lower the cost of fuel, the consumer will pay less and get more miles.

Take the bus ...

Quote:

Pirus pricing http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases...mVehicle/Model Number

Grade

Doors

Body Style

Trans

2012 MSRP
Prius v

1243

Two

5

Mid-size

ECVT

$26,400
1245

Three

5

Mid-size

ECVT

$27,165
1249

Five

5

Mid-size

ECVT

$29,990
Prius Plug-in

1235

Plug-in

5

Mid-size

ECVT

$32,000
1239

Plug-in Advanced

5

Mid-size

ECVT

$39,525

So are you buying yours this year Paul?

Point is it takes 12 or more years to change out (update) the majority of automobiles in the USA. So, it wont make that much difference.

Most effective thing is not to play that game and find a new way.

Robbie · 09-08-2012, 07:23 PM

Whatever did happen to hydrogen cars?

I remember back in the 1990's that Arnold Schwarzenegger had his Hummer converted to Hydrogen and work was supposed to begin on Hydrogen stations to replace gas stations.

I guess the oil companies bought that shit up and shut it down too? Wouldn't surprise me.

Electric cars have been around for over a hundred years and they still aren't used.

Hell, the entire taxi cab fleet of New York City were electric cars in 1897!!!

And somehow, Detroit auto makers can't figure out how to do it right in 2012. lol

Bill8 · 09-08-2012, 07:54 PM

yet still the price of oil and liquids stays at historical highs, and goes down when the economy falters, and goes right back up when the economy strengthens - which appears to cause the economy to falter, again.

the so called "oil paradox" - if supply is sound, and EROI is not a factor, why does the economy falter when the barrel price jumps, as it has repeatedly since 2005?

and every little political squabble or storm sends the price up again.

and gas prices in the US were at a record high this past weekend, highest ever for a labor day.

for some reason reality is not going along with the approved storyline, which is that EROI doesn't matter, and depletion doesn't matter.

lets see what the future brings. we's all be happy if the republicans and the oil companies can bring back the cheap oil age.

why don't they? what's stopping them?

Bill8 · 09-08-2012, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

[INDENT]Whatever happened to sawgrass ethanol?

Hydrogen fuel could be produced in the Pacific Northwest where there is cheap hydroelectric power sources and sent by pipeline (technology to be developed) to the Western USA.

Sure, it is a major investment but it would create jobs, technical innovation and in the process improve the balance of trade in America's favor. We would need to build new fuelling stations -- more jobs and useful spending. Why the hell we are not doing this?

Vested interests in the petrochemical business ... That's why.

The technology for cellulosic ethanol is tricky to develop, and as a nation we have not really sought it. The EROI disaster of corn ethanol is suppressing ethanol as a liquid fuel option, and suppressing other liquids like methanol and butane.

They are making some interesting new breakthrus in hydrogen - but - as a nation we don't support it, and we have lost the ability and will to innovate.

As a nation, we have given up on new infrastructure development. Sure, we will build old technology like pipelies for oil or gas, but we have lost the ability to build new infrastructure like smart grids or hyrdogen transport.

We give the petro industry tax breaks for exploration - and they make a find, typically small, a billion barrels or so - then cap the well, because it's not cost effective to extract and bring to market at todays price levels.

Americans made the wrong choices 30 years ago, under Reagan, and we will be paying the price for that this century.

KillerK · 09-08-2012, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDalton

this kind of sums it up:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012...40mpg-new-cars

average MPG in the US is 24, in Europe between 40 and 50

does one really need a F150? and big V8 engines when the speed limit is 55 or 65 mp/h?

most people could cut their costs for gas by 50% if they drove something like a Jetta or Passat (or similar)

Does one really need to be able to choose what clothes they wear? I mean target jeans are as good as Lucky jeans right?

Paul Markham · 09-08-2012, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

So are you buying yours this year Paul?

Point is it takes 12 or more years to change out (update) the majority of automobiles in the USA. So, it wont make that much difference.

Most effective thing is not to play that game and find a new way.

So it would take 12 years for all Americans to go from Gas Guzzling to fuel efficient cars. Unless they were pushed to by higher gas prices.

Good point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Whatever did happen to hydrogen cars?

I remember back in the 1990's that Arnold Schwarzenegger had his Hummer converted to Hydrogen and work was supposed to begin on Hydrogen stations to replace gas stations.

I guess the oil companies bought that shit up and shut it down too? Wouldn't surprise me.

Electric cars have been around for over a hundred years and they still aren't used.

Hell, the entire taxi cab fleet of New York City were electric cars in 1897!!!

And somehow, Detroit auto makers can't figure out how to do it right in 2012. lol

Which is why they will not let the price drop. Good point.

Maybe when the US is flooded with foreign made alternative energy products someone might sit up and take notice.

I was told the film "Who Killed Roger Rabbit" was about how the oil companies bought the tram system and shut it down. True or not?

Redrob · 09-08-2012, 11:12 PM

Actually, I think it was the auto and tire companies that bought the trams and shut them down.

Quote:

In 1932 General Motors organized the United Cities Motor Transit (UCMT) company to buy trolley systems, convert them to shiny new GM buses and sell the franchises on the provision that the purchaser by replacements only from GM. UCMT converted three cities to buses by 1935 at which time the American Transit Association censured GM. In 1936, General Motors, Standard Oil of California, Firestone Tire and Rubber Company, B. F. Phillips Petroleum, and Mack Manufacturing, maker of Mack trucks organized and financed National City Lines, a holding company. At this time, the United States still had 40,000 operating trolleys. National City Lines and its subsidiaries began to operate in the same fashion as UMCT: buying up trolley lines, pulling the cars out of service, tearing up the tracks, and converting to General Motors buses. Once the conversion was complete, the franchise holder would sell out with a provision precluding the return to electric transportation, and the process would begin again somewhere else. In this manner, National City Lines eventually eliminated forty-six systems in forty-five cities.

Link to entire article.

Paul Markham · 09-08-2012, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redrob

Actually, I think it was the auto and tire companies that bought the trams and shut them down.

Link to entire article.

Similar crime, wrong suspects.

Today in the world we live there are the options we have. There is no magic bullet, Government plans, Private Company plans that will change things. So if you want to cut your fuel bill, drive less, drive a smaller more fuel efficient car, buy a scooter or bike for local journeys. Odds are a lot of your journeys are short and around town, do you need an SUV?

Best of all walk there if you can.

Couldn't resist this one.

If you want to reduce your fuel bills, use less, go solar.

If you want to reduce your living costs, downsize the house, eat less or swap fillet for rump.

Waiting for something you have no control over to change for your better. Is a sane of lethargy or apathy.

bhutocracy · 09-09-2012, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

One of the biggest oil finds in history last year in the Gulf 1 BILLION barrels of recoverable oil:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...275032794.html

And that's just one of the massive oil finds that new technology is making happen...but the Obama administration blocked.

Oil creates jobs. High paying jobs. And jobs are what we need in the U.S.

Everybody keeps saying "oh, it won't work". Well, there is only one way to find out.

Common sense tells me that if you create high paying jobs and lower the cost of energy...the economy will roar.
Maybe I just have a different idea of how business works and how to be successful than some of you guys do.

Well you certainly have a different idea of reading comprehension. The article says pretty much the exact opposite of what you think it does. All petroleum leases come with work requirements so that companies can't squat on them doing nothing. Exxon was so incompetent that when they asked to sit on the discovery for another half decade they didn't even submit a development plan for after they finished sitting on it. If I was a shareholder I would be incensed at their incompetence. The "Obama administration" was saying HURRY UP not blocking it. FFS.
Every lease has staged commitments, seismic in year 2, one exploration well in year 3, another in year 4 and so on. Companies lose leases all the time so they can be re-leased to a company able to actually fulfil the work commitment and get the oil out. In this case they just got lazy and used to "greasing" the rules.

At any rate, they've been given a boot up the ass and the Interior has re-approved the lease for them... Not that you'll see much oil produced this decade from it..

And lets not get too hyperbolic, I'm invested in two oil drills right now looking for over a billion barrels of oil, one off the west coast of Africa and one off the East.

jimmycooper · 09-09-2012, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Whatever did happen to hydrogen cars?

I remember back in the 1990's that Arnold Schwarzenegger had his Hummer converted to Hydrogen and work was supposed to begin on Hydrogen stations to replace gas stations.

I guess the oil companies bought that shit up and shut it down too? Wouldn't surprise me.

Electric cars have been around for over a hundred years and they still aren't used.

Hell, the entire taxi cab fleet of New York City were electric cars in 1897!!!

And somehow, Detroit auto makers can't figure out how to do it right in 2012. lol

Here you go, hot stuff!

http://www.teslamotors.com/

AdultEUhost · 09-09-2012, 12:54 AM

I think it's a good thing gas prices go up, more room for me on the highway

jimmycooper · 09-09-2012, 01:03 AM

I've only driven a small handful of times since after my drivers license expired in 1999. In my 6 years of driving from the ages of 16-22, I owned a Saab 900s, a Ford Bronco II, and a new Explorer for like 6 months. The Saab was my favorite but for the most part I find driving to be a pain in the ass.

Bill8 · 09-09-2012, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

One of the biggest oil finds in history last year in the Gulf 1 BILLION barrels of recoverable oil:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...275032794.html

And that's just one of the massive oil finds that new technology is making happen...but the Obama administration blocked..

Thats a truly insane, and uniquely politically warped, interpretation of that article.

The article says that Interior was pissed that Exxon wanted to sit on the find, and were delaying development, so they were going to take the lease back and give it to another company that would develop it faster, so that the US would start getting the royalties.

But, like many of the new finds, its a small find in deep water, and the risks and the costs involved in developing it are huge. We simply do not yet know if deepwater finds like this can be extracted safely, the technology is still being developed, and most people think it will be ten years before the first of these deepwater finds start pumping, maybe 20 or even 30.

Quote:

"This is very deep water, very complex structures and difficult-to-produce oil," said Exxon's Mr. McGinn.

Lets see - a billion barrels is about 12 days worth of oil for the world? Is that right? Looks right - so, not a lot, two weeks worth of oil.

You do get that a billion barrels is a small find, compared to the size of the fields we used to find? Even the 10 billion or more in the deep off brazil is tiny compared to the giant fields we used to be discovering. And those early fields were easy and cheap to extract, with a great EROI.

Nobody really knows yet what the EROI of these deepwater fields is going to be, but many estimates place them about the same as bitumen and shale kerogen.

Brad Mitchell · 09-09-2012, 05:03 AM

Basic supply and demand should bring prices down here but the reality is that corporations have fleecing our pockets down to a science. It's a collossal fuck job and everyone is in on it except the consumer.

Brad

jimmycooper · 09-09-2012, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Mitchell

Basic supply and demand should bring prices down here but the reality is that corporations have fleecing our pockets down to a science. It's a collossal fuck job and everyone is in on it except the consumer.

Brad

How will supply and demand bring the prices down when the global population is expected increase by 1.4 billion over the next 20 years? And with much of that growth occurring in industrializing nations nonetheless. THIS I have to hear.

I'm really looking forward to your response because you're supposed to be a smart guy and everything. I just don't see how it's possible for supply and demand to bring long term prices down. Where is all this extra supply coming from? Another planet? With cities similar to Aurangabad anticipated to be popping up left and right, that's the only possible answer.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...er-cities.html

Paul Markham · 09-09-2012, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Mitchell

Basic supply and demand should bring prices down here but the reality is that corporations have fleecing our pockets down to a science. It's a collossal fuck job and everyone is in on it except the consumer.

Brad

So the oil industry would be shooting itself in the foot to up supply and get less money per barrel.

Anyone ever heard of OPEC? I'm sure somewhere it's linked to the price per barrel. Maybe it's just my addled brain.

Barry-xlovecam · 09-09-2012, 06:44 AM

I have been hearing the solar power mantra since the late 1970s but it has never taken hold. Cost efficiency of solar power has improved some but I think its main utilization may be in developing countries. Why? Developing countries have less demanding needs with lesser developed energy delivery infrastructures.

If we were to look at the availability of sun to power photoelectric cells the climates of many developing nations would appear favorable solar power uses.

We just do not have consistent sunshine in a lot of temperate climates for solar power to be more than just a supplement.

You cannot transport electricity more that a few hundred miles today and currently there is no way to transport liquefied gas (LNG, LPG, Hydrogen) in pipelines long distances . However, the concentration and transmission of light with its conversion to electricity, laser (plasma power), might be possible.

We would be better to invest our money and talents in hydrogen power or the production of bio-fuels from non foodstuff renewable resources, technologies that exist today, than finding fossil fuel deposits that will only be depleted -- this is just the same oil industry bullshit that has kept us back for 50 years already ...

Efficient wind turbine farms for electric generation and hydrogen electrolysis should be better investigated for long term change -- had this been done 30 years ago we might not be in the situation we are in -- a world competing for more costly and scarcer energy resources.

Bryan G · 09-09-2012, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog

Some people appreciate comfort over MPG; and apparently supply and demand was never taught over there.

Why do you feel the need to be a smug asshole in the majority of your posts?

Rochard · 09-09-2012, 11:57 AM

I like it when the price of gas goes up. The higher the cost of gas, the less drivers there are on the roads.

Robbie · 09-09-2012, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill8

Thats a truly insane, and uniquely politically warped, interpretation of that article.

Lets see - a billion barrels is about 12 days worth of oil for the world? Is that right? Looks right - so, not a lot, two weeks worth of oil.

.

No, I read the article. I have no idea what you are reading into it.

The world uses 82 MILLION barrels of oil a day.
The U.S. uses 20 million barrels a day. So that oil reserve...IF it was the ONLY one the U.S. had would be enough oil all by itself for 50 days.

But it's only one of thousands of oil finds.

Adding it into the mix along with the many other new oil finds in America and you start seeing that we have a lot of oil here.

And I agree that deepwater exploration is dangerous (obviously)....but the govt. won't allow oil companies to drill close to shore in shallow waters where it would be much safer and less risk of a disaster happening.

It's one of those unintended consequences of good intentions. You don't let them drill close to the shoreline to protect the shoreline. So it forces them to drill in deepwater. Then, because that is so dangerous and difficult...a disaster occurs and the shoreline gets messed up far worse because it's so hard to STOP an oil spill out in the deep.

If the finds of natural gas are true and there really is a hundred year supply of it...then I think we should all convert our vehicles over to natural gas and stop using oil for gasoline for cars.

Robbie · 09-09-2012, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmycooper

http://www.teslamotors.com/

I've been wanting to buy a Tesla for the last 5 years. If the economy gets turned around I will.

Just amazing that a small company like Tesla can do it...but Detroit can't.

Barry-xlovecam · 09-09-2012, 01:18 PM

Oil and coal comes from the Carboniferous Period that occurred from about 360 to 286 million years ago.

The new deposits found will last 50 days?

Come back in 300 million years to get some more?

What is the point -- dying man's last breath?

epitome · 09-09-2012, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Supply and demand. The market price will drop as supply gets larger. Just like everything else does.

They don't call it the oil cartel because its a fun name. They will just slow down the refining process by shutting them down for "maintenance" and keep prices high that way.

Robbie · 09-09-2012, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by epitome

They don't call it the oil cartel because its a fun name. They will just slow down the refining process by shutting them down for "maintenance" and keep prices high that way.

You are just refusing to ponder the question I proposed. IF the U.S. has a giant untapped oil reserve that is bigger than the amount of oil that OPEC can stop producing...then two things would happen:
1. OPEC (crazy muslim fucks who hate our guts) would lose their income and be forced back into the game.

2. The world oil supply would increase.

You're still working off of outdated assumptions that have OPEC as the big player.
IF what the oil companies are reporting is true...OPEC would be marginalized.

Yes, if it was 10 years ago...we would be at the mercy of OPEC. But these new discoveries are suggesting that might not be the case.

I'm just looking at it with an open mind. There's only ONE WAY TO FIND OUT. And that is to start getting that oil out.

Everything else is just people like me wondering if we could...and people like you in denial that it's even possible.

Paul Markham · 09-09-2012, 02:55 PM

On one hand the oil companies run things, then on the other hand. The Government run things and Robbie has been waiting 5 years to downsize his car.

Anyone else confused?

Opec current members and production http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPEC#Current_members

09-08-2012, 12:06 AM	#58
Paul Markham Too old to care Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On the sofa, watching TV or doing my jigsaws. Posts: 52,943	Gas and oil are commodities, the less around the higher the price. Look at the Diamond market to see how it's not in the oil companies interest to flood the market with oil and gas. It's also a resource that isn't going to last for ever, so making it cheaper so people can consume it faster is also a stupid way to go. About as stupid as giving away the product for free to get more sales. So not surprised so many here think it a good idea. :oh crap!!! If you want to save on your fuel bill, use less. It really is that simple. __________________ Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500. PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

09-08-2012, 12:12 AM	#59
Robbie Leaner, Meaner, Faster Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vegas Posts: 20,959	I think you guys are right. Let's just leave all this oil and gas in the ground and see if we can come up with something new. In the meantime let's watch what happens when the cost of food goes through the roof as transporting it becomes more and more expensive with the price of fuel going up. Talk about a tax on the middle class... Or we could read this news report from May 2012 talking about the fact that oil companies have now made GIANT discoveries of oil right here in the U.S. that could make us energy independent and have no need to import oil. http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...NCE/54977254/1 Effectively buying us plenty of time to develop new technologies in green energy without having to make it so expensive to fill the tank for lower and middle class Americans (rich people don't care if it costs $100 to fill the tank) __________________ -Robbie ClaudiaMarie.Com

09-08-2012, 08:26 AM	#64
Paul Markham Too old to care Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On the sofa, watching TV or doing my jigsaws. Posts: 52,943	What will make people more fuel efficient and waste less? More expensive oil or cheaper oil? ************************ What will make people go to alternative sources of power? More expensive oil or cheaper oil? ************************ What will make people develop more alternative sources of power? More expensive oil or cheaper oil? It really is a no brainer. __________________ Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500. PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

09-08-2012, 08:51 AM	#66
jimmycooper Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2010 Location: Manhattan Posts: 4,016	Based on this 2010 study, global population is expected to increase by 1.4 billion by 2030. That's like the world now minus 20 years of natural resources plus one more China. Projected increase of just the top ten most populous countries is 676MM. The top ten countries are India, China US, Indonesia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Brazil, Bangladesh, Russia, and Mexico. They're not driving hybrids in Bangladesh. How much is a Prius? $25K? The combined GDP per capita of India, Indonesia, Nigeria, Pakistan, and Bangladesh is just under $15K. 8 of the 10 are perceived to be going through periods of industrialization where more resources are needed to fuel growth. The trucks being used to haul shit to some construction site at the next Nigerian megapolis have more impact on the global market than do the F150s that middle American douchebags use to haul their pretend boats to the pretend lake. If every middle American soccer mom goes to a Toyota dealership this afternoon to trade in their gas guzzling SUV for a Prius, there's a small chance it would cause the price of a barrel to go down by a few pennies, but the 'impact' on oil prices would be short lasting because the global market is more defined with the actions of one billion industrializing chinamen. __________________

09-08-2012, 10:55 AM	#70
madm1k3 Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 472	OK lets not let facts get in the way, Canada and Mexico supply America with over sixty percent of their oil imports, who owns the Canadian oil fields..... American Companies! You would ask why are American companies extracting oil from Northern Alberta, simple thats where the oil is. Texas and other American states have run out of new oil reserves, Keystone pipeline is designed to keep the refineries in the Southern USA in the money by taking the bitumen oil from Alberta, refining it, and selling at market price. There is no reason to do this other than it will save on shipping and increase profits of the oil sands. If you believe it will lower gas prices.... well then I have some magic beans for sale as well. The other hard truth is that oil needs to be $75 - $80 a barrell or more for the Albera oil sands to be profitable. I highly doubt we will ever see it dip below this ever again, because AMERICAN and Chinese oil companies have almost a trillion dollar investment in the oil sands and we all know oil companies don't lose money __________________ Always looking for trades on Linkspun! Check my Id here

09-07-2012, 11:31 PM	#54
Redrob Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: In a refrigerator box by the tracks. Posts: 4,790	I hope to be solar by the end of this year at my home; and, off the power grid at my offices by the end of next year. The feds and city have some serious rebates and tax credits right now that cover 65 to 70% of the install costs.

09-08-2012, 11:07 AM	#71
Barry-xlovecam It's 42 Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Global Posts: 18,083	Get rid of it ...

09-08-2012, 06:23 PM	#75
slavdogg Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 3,570	[QUOTE=MaDalton;19175926]http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/ Did you bother to notice that North AMerican oil is about $20 cheaper per barrel than European ?? __________________ Adult Traffic for Sale

09-08-2012, 07:23 PM	#77
Robbie Leaner, Meaner, Faster Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Vegas Posts: 20,959	Whatever did happen to hydrogen cars? I remember back in the 1990's that Arnold Schwarzenegger had his Hummer converted to Hydrogen and work was supposed to begin on Hydrogen stations to replace gas stations. I guess the oil companies bought that shit up and shut it down too? Wouldn't surprise me. Electric cars have been around for over a hundred years and they still aren't used. Hell, the entire taxi cab fleet of New York City were electric cars in 1897!!! And somehow, Detroit auto makers can't figure out how to do it right in 2012. lol __________________ -Robbie ClaudiaMarie.Com

09-08-2012, 07:54 PM	#78
Bill8 Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 1,901	yet still the price of oil and liquids stays at historical highs, and goes down when the economy falters, and goes right back up when the economy strengthens - which appears to cause the economy to falter, again. the so called "oil paradox" - if supply is sound, and EROI is not a factor, why does the economy falter when the barrel price jumps, as it has repeatedly since 2005? and every little political squabble or storm sends the price up again. and gas prices in the US were at a record high this past weekend, highest ever for a labor day. for some reason reality is not going along with the approved storyline, which is that EROI doesn't matter, and depletion doesn't matter. lets see what the future brings. we's all be happy if the republicans and the oil companies can bring back the cheap oil age. why don't they? what's stopping them?

09-09-2012, 12:54 AM	#86
AdultEUhost ORLY? Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NL & US Posts: 2,579	I think it's a good thing gas prices go up, more room for me on the highway __________________ ICQ: 267-443-722 / leon [at] adulteuhost [dotcom] Nominated for an XBIZ Award as "Webhost of the Year" in 2007, 2012, 2013 and 2014

09-09-2012, 01:03 AM	#87
jimmycooper Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2010 Location: Manhattan Posts: 4,016	I've only driven a small handful of times since after my drivers license expired in 1999. In my 6 years of driving from the ages of 16-22, I owned a Saab 900s, a Ford Bronco II, and a new Explorer for like 6 months. The Saab was my favorite but for the most part I find driving to be a pain in the ass. __________________

09-09-2012, 05:03 AM	#89
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,812	Basic supply and demand should bring prices down here but the reality is that corporations have fleecing our pockets down to a science. It's a collossal fuck job and everyone is in on it except the consumer. Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

09-09-2012, 06:44 AM	#92
Barry-xlovecam It's 42 Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Global Posts: 18,083	I have been hearing the solar power mantra since the late 1970s but it has never taken hold. Cost efficiency of solar power has improved some but I think its main utilization may be in developing countries. Why? Developing countries have less demanding needs with lesser developed energy delivery infrastructures. If we were to look at the availability of sun to power photoelectric cells the climates of many developing nations would appear favorable solar power uses. We just do not have consistent sunshine in a lot of temperate climates for solar power to be more than just a supplement. You cannot transport electricity more that a few hundred miles today and currently there is no way to transport liquefied gas (LNG, LPG, Hydrogen) in pipelines long distances . However, the concentration and transmission of light with its conversion to electricity, laser (plasma power), might be possible. We would be better to invest our money and talents in hydrogen power or the production of bio-fuels from non foodstuff renewable resources, technologies that exist today, than finding fossil fuel deposits that will only be depleted -- this is just the same oil industry bullshit that has kept us back for 50 years already ... Efficient wind turbine farms for electric generation and hydrogen electrolysis should be better investigated for long term change -- had this been done 30 years ago we might not be in the situation we are in -- a world competing for more costly and scarcer energy resources.

09-09-2012, 11:57 AM	#94
Rochard Jägermeister Test Pilot Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NORCAL Posts: 73,425	I like it when the price of gas goes up. The higher the cost of gas, the less drivers there are on the roads. __________________ “The choice is no longer between right or left. The choice is between normal and crazy.” - Sarah Huckabee Sanders YNOT MAIL \| THE BEST ADULT MAILING SOLUTION

09-09-2012, 01:18 PM	#97
Barry-xlovecam It's 42 Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Global Posts: 18,083	Oil and coal comes from the Carboniferous Period that occurred from about 360 to 286 million years ago. The new deposits found will last 50 days? Come back in 300 million years to get some more? What is the point -- dying man's last breath?

09-09-2012, 02:55 PM	#100
Paul Markham Too old to care Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On the sofa, watching TV or doing my jigsaws. Posts: 52,943	On one hand the oil companies run things, then on the other hand. The Government run things and Robbie has been waiting 5 years to downsize his car. Anyone else confused? Opec current members and production http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPEC#Current_members __________________ Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500. PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70