Barefootsies

If you wanted to hire programmer, and bring them in-house full time, what do you believe is fair annual salary? I know some of the bigger adult, and mainstream, programs have their own in-house developers and designers for any number of reasons.

I am curious as to the salary trade offs would be for someone opting to go full time in-house, versus hustling for gigs on the web. I would think you could make more on the hustling, assuming you have a number of regular clients, versus a fixed salary. Although, older guys with families probably appreciate stability.

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v4 media

Depends on where you are based. Cost of living, job market etc, or do you mean work from home office just for one client?

blazin

Exactly... and the experience of the developer.

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marlboroack

Breakfest, lunch, dinner, 5 pets of his choice and a place to live. Hookers every Friday. He chooses. Bye.

Socks

Programmers here are $60-80k, and much more if they find the right job at the right place.

candyflip

My girl works as an in-house web / app developer. Her department bills out at $100 per hour. And she bills upwards of 50 hours each week. Her salary with benefits and what not is about 1/2 of what she makes them each year.

That seems like a fair situation for everyone involved.

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fris

most people that work for agencies make peanuts compared to what the client makes per project.

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Cyber Fucker

Depends on many factors.

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Miguel T

I know that in the UK, a Webdeveloper salary averages at 65k£

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Fat Panda

$60k-$100k

edgeprod

I'll give you some "off-the-cuff" thoughts while I watch the Pacquiao fight:

Senior-Level: Capable of architecting and executing enterprise-level applications that deliver in time-to-market, scalability, and maintainability. Deadlines are set in stone, and delivery is virtually certain. Often has responsibility for more junior-level staff, and may serve as an interim CTO or VP of Engineering while the company seeks in-house staff. This person is a programmer, not a web developer, and is capable of delivering projects across a multitude of platforms. Comfortable in a number of frameworks, and is capable of constructing custom MVC-based frameworks for projects. Excellent grasp of object-oriented principles. Code is self-documenting. Utilizes unit testing, version tracking, and bug tracking tools. Capable of re-architecting existing codebases from the superclass and interface level, as well as database plans and server infrastructure. Cooperatively generates, and then works off of a very detailed spec sheet. Engages with only the most interesting or profitable projects, and almost always has more available work than available time. Monthly revenue from freelance projects: $9,500 to $15,000. Salary requirements: $95,000-$145,000.

Upper-Mid-Level: Can execute the system architecture of a more senior-level coder, generally meets deadlines without excuses, and finishes the majority of projects they start. Good grasp of object oriented principles. Capable of changing gears in the middle of a project and adapting a spec sheet to meet the fluid goals. Works well with others, and is capable of doing a code review of more junior-level programmers. Can enhance super-classes and class interfaces. Monthly revenue from freelance projects: $6,500 to $9,000. Salary requirements: $75,000 to $90,000.

Mid-Level: Capable of working as part of a cohesive team. Comfortable with MVC and object-oriented principles, but may not always utilize them properly. Can maintain the code of more junior-level programmers, and has suggestions for improving some methods and classes. Code produced is often somewhat challenging for other coders to maintain. Generally has no knowledge of programming, and is primarily a web developer. Monthly revenue from freelance projects: $2,500 to $5,000. Salary requirements: $45,000 to $65,000.

Junior-Level: Generally works alone ("Cowboy Coding"), producing code that is difficult to maintain. Uncomfortable or unfamiliar with MVC, OOP, unit testing, and possible basic concepts such as regression and referential data integrity. Usually incapable of working with the code of others, and will often suggest code-rewrites. Completion is far from guaranteed, and projects are often abandoned when the work moves beyond the scope of their ability. Often poorly articulate in spec sheets, and budgets overruns, delays, and other problems are common. May only have knowledge of one web development language (PHP being the most common), and has no knowledge of programming. Monthly revenue from freelance projects: $0-$2,000. Salary requirements: $20,000 to $35,000.

That's based on my roughly two decades of experience developing in general (in languages beyond the learner-level -- we're not counting the time spent BASIC and its kin here), and about a decade and a half developing in the corporate world for large clients.

v4 media

That's a good rate. When I worked inhouse it was about a third wages/third overheads/ third profit.

edgeprod

You cock-loving lover of cocks. I took all that time to give you a brain dump on the programmers available and their prices, and you can't even be bothered to come in here and call me an asshole?

Deej

What an inconsiderate prick...

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edgeprod

Both Edgeprod AND Barefootsies.

Lykos

Just sent you an ICQ champ!
I can get you Senior LAMP( Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP ) programmer fully dedicate to you and YOUR working hours for as low as $2,900 a month ! I am talking about pro guys !

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grumpy

none of the pro's i know will work for that money.

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HBKKH

I like in house. Outsourcing can be a huge bitch. So much time and money wasted on sites like freelance and odesk

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DamianJ

How many do you know in India?

woj

what does location have to do with anything? If a job is worth $20k, someone good will charge $20k... why wouldn't they?

Someone new to freelancing could perhaps make a mistake at first and charge low rates, but he will learn pretty quickly what the going rate for his expertise is and will adjust his rates accordingly... so low rates 99% of the time indicate lack of experience and/or skill...

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potter

40-100k. Depends on their experience and their location.

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dillonaire

Sounds about right. Location is key. Programer that lives in the San Francisco will cost you more than a programer in Arizona.

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edgeprod

No, you can't, and no, you aren't. Review above what that term actually means, and the see if your guy or gal fits that bill. He or she does not.

VenusBlogger

hehehe...

Nobody will HIRE YOU.

It's obvious you have problems to manage your ATTITUDE and you never solved that.

You always pretend to be a cool and nice guy, but that's a complete FAKE Personality you show off to hide your REAL YOU, MR. HIDE.

When things get messy, you become your REAL YOU, a HATRED person that will get in trouble in no time.

You took a few classes of Kick-Boxing to try to deal with it, but never could.

GO SEE A Shrink.

Seriously.

Killswitch

Why are you even in this thread? You couldn't code an anchor tag properly. Begone child.

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VenusBlogger

You have 6 followers in FACEBOOK for your PAGE "Attack of the Babe"... Wow, you are a successful webmaster!

Busca tu maldito nombre en Google, idiota, hihihi... That's marketing!

Up Your Ass...

Killswitch

Didn't see a page even for Venusblogger.com... So looks like my 6 likes on Facebook beats yours.

apply_cold_water_to_burn_area.jpg

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Mutt

Doctors and dentists in many countries make less than $2,900 a month - so i think a Senior LAMP Developer in those countries makes less than $2,900 a month.

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edgeprod

Haha, dude, your extension is playing tricks on me. It looks like you're talking to yourself! I love not seeing silly drivel on the board anymore. About a dozen people on my ignore list, and it's awesome. Look at how funny it looks with you talking to yourself, though:

edgeprod

I don't doubt that. What I'm doubting is that they're as senior as it's being represented. Those people are such a small segment of the population that people throw the term around irresponsibly. I'll eat my hat if the candidate he's talking about fits the qualifications I've laid out. I'd even be willing to interview them to see.

Killswitch

Yeah wish I had more free time to improve it so their quotes are removed and it's easier to add users to your list.

Maybe next year.

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pamon

lol. back on topic. ranges 60-100k year at least in the US. cheaper overseas but you get what you pay for.

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edgeprod

That'd be even MORE confusing!

VenusBlogger

I knew Doctor JEKYLL was using a MAC...

And he pretends to be paid huge amounts of money for his pathetic coding skills? LOL.

You don't deserve that money.

And with your ATTITUDE, I would never ever hire you and I would recommend anyone I can to stay away from you... Your shitty ATTITUDE playing tricks is what bothers me the most and what I consider the most UN-PROFESSIONAL person I have seen lately...

Stay away from EDGEPROD. His attitude sucks. You dont want to deal with that kind of sicko.

Now go cry all you want. You will see my post anyways.

V_RocKs

Did I mention I smoke crack rocks?

Vendzilla

Free blog since 2009?
I've known Dom for about 10 years, unprofessional would be coming into a thread to jump him without a clue. I've seen his coding, you don't say where you have, are you just judging him because of something he said on a website called Go Fuck Yourself?

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grumpy

They are good but not pro's and yes i know a few.

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DamianJ

What? You are *really* suggesting you can't get a professional developer overseas?

Amusing.

isteve

The first issue you might find is to actually find a proper software architect, if your project is porn related. Like mentioned by edgeprod, programmers that are of senior level have more work that they can handle. That means that they choose what benefits them the most, in salary and in "fun at work".

Now, if your project is adult related, most senior software engineer won't touch your project. This is a problem most big adult related companies are facing.

But, if you are paying enough, you might be able to get a few. However, you need to know how to spot a senior software architect vs someone that thinks he is senior.

The best bet would be to talk about design patterns. If he can't name and explain the obvious ones, stay away from the guys. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_design_pattern )

Then, asks him questions related to Dependency Injection ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_injection ). If he can't answer, he is not a senior.

Then, asks him how he tests his softwares. If he is not unit & infrastructure testing all his code or if he's not creating reports related to his code's tests coverage, then he is not a senior.

Then, ask him questions about continuous integration ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_integration ). If he can't answer you, don't bother, he is not a senior.

Ask him about the books (related to software engineering) he reads and enjoys. Then, have a look on amazon and see if the books are related to any of the subjects mentioned above. If not, don't bother, he is not a senior.

Then, asks him about creating a RESTful API to encapsulate all your business logic, so that you can easily and quickly create sites, on different platforms, without re-writing all your business logic everywhere ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Represe...state_transfer ). If the guy doesn't know how to WRITE RESTful API's CORRECTLY, don't bother, he is not a senior.

That being said, if the guy is really a senior, expect to pay around 150k$ for his work. If quality is very important for you, you should invest in a senior software architect that write code.

However, if you need to create projects quickly and you are in the "we create demos and quick projects to test the water" mode, then go with a cheap hacker that can "get the job done". Then, when the project makes money and you need it to work properly, invest in a senior software architect to re-write your whole platform. Then, you will reach quality.

For a hacker that can "get the job done", the salary is around 60k-80k here in Montreal. These people normally have around 2-5 years of experience. However, some people stays juniors all their life.

For junior developers, the salary is around 35k-50k here in Montreal. Junior are basically developers that just got out of school or have less than 1-2 years of experience. However, some people stays juniors all their life.

-----------

For the people that care...

You can unit test your code in php using PHPUnit: http://www.phpunit.de/manual/current/en/

Selenium is used to do Infrastructure testing: http://seleniumhq.org/

Jenkins is a continuous integration platform: http://jenkins-php.org/
Jenkins can be used with PHP: http://jenkins-php.org/

-----------
Good luck finding someone!

Lykos

Really man, why do you think it's not possible to have a senior programmer for less then 2,9k a month? Once i have free time, let's make an interview with few of my guys and you will see for yourself...
Top companies here are working with my guys and they are more then happy...
Maybe you are top of the top of the senior programmers and that's great... but other then that there are senior programmers with 5+ yrs of experience who works for less then 2,9k a month... We are not talking about west world...

We have one of biggest Microsoft development centers here and there is just not enough work for everyone...And they are more then happy to earn 2k+ a month with us in a country where average salary is 500, and they don't need to bust their brain to find a freelance work... Not everyone likes to hunt for work, lot of them loves steady and secure salary, keep that on mind.

And i like to say we have smart ppl down here, remember Tesla, Pupin, Milankovic,Einstein wife(math science) were all from here, so there are plenty of smart ppl to hire.... And we are country gone trough wars, very bad economy etc... And having 2,000+ american dollars... a month, steady income... is just amazing down here...
Tons of ppl here works for only 200 bucks a month, at least 50% of them... So ppl don't risk much here.

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potter

Too long to fully quote, but that was a very good post!

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Killswitch

I don't think anyone here takes PenisFlogger seriously anyway, so me and Dom aren't really worried about him.

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edgeprod

High-5. Appreciate you, bro.


You're right, I shouldn't have assumed. I am reacting more to people throwing the term "senior" around loosely, rather than the price. I'd be happy to interview some of your coders.

grumpy

good post

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isteve

Thanks. Hopefully this will help someone ...

edgeprod

Without a doubt. All of that insight is golden.

VenusBlogger

HI HI HI... DO-MI-NI-CO is very angry today.

He has many reasons to be that way.

Eye for an eye, piriod.xxx

Killswitch

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