The Porn Nerd

FIDDY videos removed...

There's absolutely no question you are correct in having all those FLASHING ads in your face. Sometimes I myself can't even find the link back to my own site because of seizure-inducing flashing blinding me....

Tubes SHOULD - and we should DEMAND - an ad alongside our videos. Not ANOTHER paysite (or cam or dating site) but OUR site. There's no way a tube will remove all those ads since that's their bread-and-butter. But they might be willing to give us, the paysite owner and the supplier of the content that's feeding all they're other revenue, a "piece of the pie" if we begin removing all our legal content en masse.

There has to be a balance. the exploitation of our content will never stop altogether but MUST be reduced somewhat otherwise content providers/producers simply will not play along any longer. Those days are coming. A banner underneath the player, and even banners on our profile pages, do not and cannot compete with FLASHING ads that surround our content.

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Yanks_Todd

The web entertainment industry as a whole is still so young. Therefore when I struggle understanding how a model, concept or relationship will/is working in this industry I look to the brick and mortar world for something similar and more mature to compare it to. The answers are usually there.

What comes to mind in this scenario is quite obvious. A tube site is a venue, a theater, a concert hall, a stage, field, ballpark, stadium etc. etc.

These places make a large portion of their money off of concessions, overpriced liquor, popcorn, beer, coke, hotdogs, parking, t-shirts etc. etc. To tubes these concessions are equivalent to ads, dating, cams, traffic and various other products.

The entertainer, actor, player, movie production company, theater production company, singer, etc. is paid well in most cases. I am not talking about local free performances or other outliers. I am talking about professional athletes, actors, singers, musicians and performers in real venues.

They are not commoditized because they bring a unique talent or product to the venue. A talent or product that the viewer or venue owner does not possess or have the ability to create easily but wants to watch or showcase.

The venue owner can not produce this product or talent because the resources are not all local to them and they do not have the broad expertise across the needed verticals to compete in all those markets in addition to competing as a venue in their own market. Tube sites are not GE.

The problem with tubes is obvious, the entertainment in the venue has been poorly treated and it is now becoming clear that they are a key input in the equation for success. In short their needs can longer be ignored and their products treated as commodities.

The solution is also as simple as the analogy. If I had a venue of any kind and failed to attract talent I would work on creating a more welcoming and profitable environment for the required performers.

If it was a sports environment I would build off the hook facilities, locker rooms, weight rooms and practice fields, I would do promotions to fill my stands and I would make sure the jerseys of my players were selling like hotcakes with a solid concessions plan.

Money is also important, however this solution works in both capped and uncapped environments. In other words you can get more talent then the other guy by using means then simply money. Money of curse helps.... a lot.

Is it really this simple? I truly think it is.

Opening the venue has lower barriers to entry then the creating the necessary content, however the venue has he audience waiting.

This will need to evolve for both to survive in the long run.

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Yanks_Todd

Thanks, I will look for the sign up, let me know what you need.

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Yanks_Todd

I like working with Xhamster, the time was absolutely worth it.

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adulttraffic

LOL I think you know he answer to all this is. If your not making shit then stop uploading your content. 5 million views and your not making sales?

signupdamnit

That is pretty much guaranteed for two main reasons.

1. The more free content you give away the worse the ctr, ratios, and retention you will get. Plus the same is true for the others in your niche and the entire industry. What they do affects the numbers you will see to some degree.

2. As your competition also submits there will be greater competition for the available views and so your views will tend to decrease over time. It's common sense here that everyone cannot be on the first page forever.

The math here only ends in disaster.

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signupdamnit

I'm not uploading content to tubes. I'm an affiliate who has a few sponsor tubes.


5,000,000 views
0.5% ctr
1:5000 ratio

25,000 hits to sponsors.

5 sales.

-----------------------------

In 2009 the numbers were like this:

5,000,000 views
3% ctr
1:1000 ratio

150,000 hits to sponsors

150 sales.

The ctr is what hurts you the most. Why should they click the link to your site (or the sponsor) when they can get all the videos for free elsewhere?

This is why these tubes don't push paysites. Because the ctr on them sucks for this reason.

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Yanks_Todd

I believe you and I are on the same team here, however there are some things not considered that stop this situation from being guaranteed.

In regards to Number #1 I believe its not the amount of content you give away, but the management of the percentage of free content to protected content. This can be managed effectively if the situation evolves and that is what this thread is about.

#2, in regards to competition. I believe because of the destruction tubes have caused in the biz the competitive space for Yanks.com has improved in the last 3 years. I am currently tracking at 90% of my all time high in revenue and profitability and will surpass my 2007 high sometime in late summer this year.

I think what you are saying makes sense, however the tubes reaching out the way the have means the status quo is changing. This situation is only guaranteed if the content producers don't capitalize on the shifting advantage.

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signupdamnit

I agree with that. It is more about the smart use of promo content versus giving it all away. But there are still problems.

1. What the competition in your niche does as far as free content also affects you.
2. What those in the general adult industry do as far as distributing free content also affects you.
3. What the pirates do also affects you.

So even if you do it perfectly you will still be affected.

And there is another point. It's a bit like someone who faithfully bought $10 in lottery tickets each day for the last decade finally winning $25,000 and citing that as evidence that it makes sense to buy lottery tickets. They see what they want to see in this case. They see the $25,000 they gained but they don't see $36,500 (plus the interest but I'm keeping it simple) they spent in the past decade to "win".

If you're new to the industry or you didn't have strong numbers before then what you "gained" might look great. But you might not be looking at what the opportunity cost was for doing this. Chances are those sales really aren't free. They came from somewhere else.

Or else the people who have been submitting in the past have seen that it isn't quite working out the way they thought so they are ceasing with submitting (or going out of business). It's not intuitive to most at first but over time the numbers (or the bouncing checks) educate them.

It's better for sponsors than affiliates with the tubes I will admit. At least you get to "win" that $25,000. The affiliate only sees the loss to ctr, ratios, and retention. Affiliates get nothing. For this reason it's more natural for affiliates to see the downside first whereas some sponsors might be stuck on seeing their lottery "winnings". OTOH it might be a great way to grab some quick cash for a couple years at the expense of helping to put the final nail in the coffin of the paysite industry.

If you and Mr. Peabody can make it work I think that's great. You are among two who really deserve it and seem like some of the better people in the industry. So I'll be cheering for you. Truth is what we do probably doesn't matter much at this point as it's so far gone. True change would take an industry wide effort.....and maybe a time machine.

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Jel

how many videos, and how many total views to those videos, out of interest?

Jel

ok got this part, how many videos for those views? 100+ I'm assuming, for those numbers on xhamster?

Jel

Ignore both my last 2 posts now :D

Yanks_Todd

121 videos

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The Porn Nerd

It's not that I'm not getting shit, my sites do exceptionally well with tubes. My overall CTR for my top 5 sites is 2-3%. My banners, according to Traffic Junky, are in the top 5% of banner ads anywhere. I see these same numbers when I buy banner ads on tubes. So I know my CTR is high across the board.

What I'm trying to achieve is less waste and more maximizing revenue from the traffic I am receiving from tubes.


You make so many great points I won't quote them all. LOL From an affiliate's perspective I am in total agreement and I don't have a clue as to how you would compete with what is, essentially, a whale affiliate like YouPorn et al.

But this leads to some points: You would be 100% correct (instead of 99%) if there were traffic alternatives for the paysite owner. Nowhere else can I get 10k hits in a day on a semi-consistent basis from another affiliate other than a giant tube. If there are other sources that can send big numbers I'd like to find them.

In a conspicuous consumption and disposable society, which we are, you have to have an almost endless supply of goodies to give out. But nothing is forever, nothing is endless. So we simply must find a fair-ish "balance" between ourselves and our traffic partners.

I propose this:

We must work towards achieving a 60/40 split between Program Owners and tubesite owners. I do not believe we will ever achieve 50-50. What I mean is tubes should offer and we should demand that 40% of the ad space on a page that contains one of our videos is an ad for the paysite the video is advertising. NOT OTHER VIDEOS. (This would not include the Homepage, obviously.) So:

1 under-player ad (most tubes have this now)
1 NTV ad 250 x 300 animated
1 1000px wide Footer animated or static

This will leave the Header, 1 NTV animated ad and the entire right margin for the tubes to promote their cams, etc. This setup would increase a paysite's advertising threefold. Not perfect but at least it's giving us a fucking CHANCE. (I would actually like a single 500 x 300 animated ad NTV for the paysite owner, thus "framing" the promo video with ads to the paysite. But I'm realistic. LOL)

Tubesite owners will resist because those NTV ads and Footers bring in big bucks via brokers like Exoclick and through direct ad buys. Brokers will not like this, either. But AGAIN: no content means no content to exploit other revenue streams. It's a symbiotic relationship so now we should just be jostling over percentages.

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Yanks_Todd

This is a big challenge, however it could also be an opportunity. The tubes need content in the same way a TGP needed gallery posts, however I don't always have time to submit to every tube under the sun, so the need for an affiliate is there.

If the model adjusted to allow for affiliate submissions to tubes in the same way TGPs did, that could work. However obviously the challenge is that tubes want the rights to the content, half the sales on the outbound links and 100% of the generated ad sales. That may not be possible long term.

I see your point though completely and I agree, the affiliate has been hurt by the tubes forcing sponsors to go direct. I am certainly open to being part of the solution if one exists.

Thanks for the love BTW, always appreciated.

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Yanks_Todd

There is some really good stuff in here.

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MainstreamGuy

One momment... The Tubes are now content Partners of Adult Paysites?

Wow, this industry has really changed, since I last visited some years ago. Can't believe it, Tubes are your content Partners?

And what about Webmasters? You do deal directly with the tubes? So you dont need webmasters anymore to promote your paysites?

I remember the last time I visited adult forums few years ago, most people were angry and insulting tubes and wanted to take them down.

Can't believe how things change so fast and dramatically from white to black.

signupdamnit

It's not hits which make you money though, it's sales. Before the market became overtaken by piracy even back in 2008 with some sites I could send around 1000 uniques a day and make at least ten sales. It didn't happen all the time or with every site but it could be done when you "nailed it". And this was as an affiliate with nothing more than a text link. Zero sponsor content. Just a perfect link targeted at the right people.

What has changed between then and now? I think most of us know deep down what has changed. I don't want to sound like a broken record.

The trend continues. The difference between the affiliate and the paysite owner is just that the paysite owner is able to profit from the sales the tube can still send by cannibalizing the market. But the position of each and the final outcome is the same as long as both rely on the faltering paysite model under the current environment.

That would be more fair for the content producer for sure. But it may not help you as much as you might think. You see the problem isn't necessarily that the tube isn't giving you enough real estate. The problem now is that the product we are trying to sell has been radically devalued. The average surfer (compared to five years ago) doesn't want to click your link or banner because they know it's a paysite and they just aren't interested. They expect it for free.

I don't know if you've made any tubes yourself just for promoting your content and maybe a few other sponsors but if not then I suggest you try it as a learning experience. Try to see how much plastering the page with ads and text links does for your overall ctr versus one little link. There will be a difference for each ad or link you add but you probably won't get anything near the 3% ctr or more which some of us were seeing a couple years ago.

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signupdamnit

Yes. Pretty much. See the tubes took most of the traffic from the affiliates. Google punishes for affiliate links and rewards for long TOS from large movies so the affiliates with their 30 second legal clips got screwed. So the sponsor loses 50% or whatever of their affiliate business and then is hit with reduced revenues overall. So they get desperate. They see 'Scumbag tube' can send them 10,000 hits potentially a day by putting their videos out there along with a few sales so they want to work with them to stay alive. It's a nice short term solution anyway and you gotta do what you gotta do.

The paysite affiliate has largely left. Traffic is harder to get. Ctr is radically reduced. Retention for revshare is way down. You are crippled with using only sponsor content where the sponsor is even still giving it out to you. It usually doesn't make any sense to work with .75% ctr and 1:5,000 ratios when there are other options. It's understandable that sponsors are looking for other sources because most paysite affiliates are long gone.

This industry isn't very good about looking for the long term though. It usually is about the "quick buck"....and let's admit it. It shows.

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LeRoy

It's s biz model

Get programs to use their resources as much as possible Bandwidth, time to upload the promos, make specific size banners and whatnot.

for what?? a page with a little 480x60 banner under the video? It's almost ridiculous and kinda pisses me off to a certain extent. Anyway I played they're game a bit but there's not much there unless you're getting something extra.

Tube owners for the most part..... Fucked up shit

Whatever

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MainstreamGuy

Thanks for the description of the current situation, now I understand a few things.

But, what happened to the vast majority of Adult Paysite Webmasters? Where are they now? They leave adult? Came over to mainstream? Search for a daily 9-5 job?

As I see adult, 95% of the tube market is only owned by a few big guys, so its more lakely the thousands of adult webmasters didn't converted over to tubes, right? I guess they went to do something else.

Roald

I appplaud the idea however the cat is out of the bag, and for every content owner following your idea there are tons of others who will happily take your spot. This industry will never unite to get an idea like this to take off.

Someone remember TGP2? Great idea but wasnt adapted either as there are always people who have a different focus.

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DWB

I do agree that all ads around the video, and inline videos, on a partner account should be that of the partner. It's really lame seeing ads for pirate sites, scam dating sites, cam sites, and borderline CP ads for teen sites playing next to my video which only has a tiny banner under the video.

Captain Kawaii

Best suggestion yet.

Captain Kawaii

It is quite the bad joke concept for content producers.

The Porn Nerd

LET ME BE CLEAR: I am NOT saying don't upload to tubes if you're a Program Owner. I am saying continue to Upload videos - but let's discuss and consider whether rotating that content would maximize membership sales.

The tubes are a reality and I've always said "work with them". But every program is differant, not all content is the same, not all sites or Tours are the same. So some may see great results, others may see paltry results. It really depends on a balance of many factors, some of which the program owner can control on his end while others the tube site owners would need to do. It's a pendulum that should swing back-and-forth until we find an agreeable balance.

Otherwise the Inudustry will continue to dwindle and, ultimately, it will be the content that suffers.

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Jel

Manwin must be laughing their bollocks off at almost everyone falling for their spin on why their tubes should be given content. A fucking masterstroke, is what it is, and for that, I can only congratulate them.

demographics1

Some interesting concepts are discussed here.

One thing that comes to mind is that the profit of tubes is largely due to non competitive upsells like dating, sex toys and similar.

I have to reread the thread and think a bit.

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signupdamnit

I think it's a combination of all the above. Some have moved to mainstream others have taken offline jobs. I still make some sales with paysites but I won't even think about promoting something unless it's absolute cream of the crop stuff which has proven ratios. It's just not worth experimenting with anymore as most now convert like crap. And it's no mystery why. Now even all the niched terms in Google have been taken over by these ridiculous sites giving out full scenes by the thousands so that they can sell ad space. Frankly I'm shocked when I make new affiliate paysite sales. I don't understand why people would still buy! Just type the name of the site in Google or the niche and between Manwin's tubes, redtube, and Xhamster you can find every full scene ever made from that site. And failing that there are even backups at the file lockers and the torrents. Why buy?

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The Porn Nerd

Because again there are people who buy bottled water. Some people - those with HD monitors, etc - want quality. They also want to be able to show their porn on their giant wide-screen HD tvs. They don't want the wife/kids finding their browser hsitory, the reasons go on and on. Is it a smaller percentage today than it was before the advent of free porn? Absolutely. But there are still ways to sell to surfers.

I make sales every day, from affiliates who don't have tube sites, so I know it's possible and is happening.

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Yanks_Todd

Bump to keep this conversation going.

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BuxomVixen

How can I know if a tube is a legal tube or a crook tube? I only want to do business with honest people who don't steal. call me crazy but I believe in karma.

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